John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

This sounds like a very interesting idea if you ask me (or even if you don't). I will have to give this a try.

CJ - Maybe I missed this part but it seems like this would just be a "cinching" technique as opposed to something you could use on every shot.

One other somewhat related thought:
I think it's a bit misleading when people talk about the tighter pockets not allowing a player to aim for certain parts of the pocket. Take a 4.5 inch pocket for example (I know that's not THAT tight by today's standards but I still think that's tight), now while the pocket may only be able to fit two balls into the jaws of the pocket, you actually have more than 4.5 inches to work with. This is something that most players probably already know, and I'm sure I understood this intuitively but I really just recently figured this out on a cognitive level (if that makes since). So if a ball is shot at pocket speed all you really need to do is to get 51% of the object ball to hit the pocket facing and the ball will go into the hole (obviously shooting pocket speed is crucial). This concept is most apparent when you are shooting into an obstructed pocket (blocked by another ball).

I played an awful lot of pool before I actually thought about that.

Just another one of my non earth-shattering contributions.

Thanks for a cool thread.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
cjshot.jpg
I just saw this and it's a very good "sample example" .... you would line up on the "blue line" side of the pocket.....then cue it left of center and go STRAIGHT through the ball....don't pivot, but keep the cue straight so the ball veers slightly
Click to expand...

As I've been trying to tell you, this is nothing more than aiming center pocket with inside english.

Do I really have to point this out?

pj <- wow
chgo
 
lfigueroa said:
Exactly (sometimes I crack myself up :-)

I was recently in Seattle and if you can't do this on almost any of the tables at the Golden Fleece and if you try it on Harry's pet table set up for 1pocket you are most definitely losing your lunch money. Same for any table at House of Billiards in Santa Monica. Same on any table on the right side of the room at Red Shoes in Chicago. No go here in St. Louis at The Break. Same at the late great Comet Billiards in NJ, particularly their 1pocket table. If memory serves, this would not even work on the pit table by the front door at CJs old room in Dallas.

Maybe on someone's 8' home table. Or maybe there are still some National Shuffleboard tables out there...

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Thanks, for posting this negative drivel. When I see your posts, I know you are only here to stir things up and contribute nothing to the discussion. Your passive aggressive style skirts the rules for posting. You're an expert on insulting people and disguising it with a few sarcastic remarks.

Why are you even posting on an aiming forum? Is life so miserable you feel the need to share? CJ is attempting to discuss important issues with the forum and you are doing your best to discredit him. He, and others have told you the discussion might not be your cup of tea and to ignore it. Yet you are still here sticking your fingers in the cage.

Now, explain how it's a public forum and your opinion is as good as anybody else's so we can continue to move off topic and chase CJ away.

Best,
Mike
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
As I've been trying to tell you, this is nothing more than aiming center pocket with inside english.

Do I really have to point this out?

pj <- wow
chgo
Click to expand...

I don't think you need to point that out.

If that's what he's trying to say then I completely missed the point of the entire thread.

Your technique wouldn't increase the effective pocket size. What I figured he was saying was to aim at one side of the pocket (at the facing) and use the inside english to ensure that you only miss the ball to the side of the pocket away from the facing. That would effectively increase the pocket size (like the fairway example in golf). If you aim at the middle of the pocket using inside english you now only have half of the pocket to work with.
 
Mikjary said:
Thanks, for posting this negative drivel. When I see your posts, I know you are only here to stir things up and contribute nothing to the discussion. Your passive aggressive style skirts the rules for posting. You're an expert on insulting people and disguising it with a few sarcastic remarks.

Why are you even posting on an aiming forum? Is life so miserable you feel the need to share? CJ is attempting to discuss important issues with the forum and you are doing your best to discredit him. He, and others have told you the discussion might not be your cup of tea and to ignore it. Yet you are still here sticking your fingers in the cage.

Now, explain how it's a public forum and your opinion is as good as anybody else's so we can continue to move off topic and chase CJ away.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...


How many of the rooms and tournaments that I mention have you played at?

I have played at or in all of them and I am offering my opinion based upon my experience. We disagree on this point on which I have politely stated my point of view. That's not trying to discredit anyone nor chase anyone away -- it is sharing my experience with others on this forum who, perhaps, have not had the opportunity to travel to rooms all over the country and play pros in big events. I am an amateur player who plays a few hours a week and yet I have cashed multiple times at the DCC, won tournaments at a couple those rooms, beaten several pros and even took two games off Efren at the US One Pocket Open in a race to four. (And yes, I've gone two and out a few times :-)

I've been an avid student of the game for 40 years having read just about everything on the game, viewed most of the videos and DVDs, taken lessons from a couple of the masters, talked to numerous pros, and watched countless tournament and money matches. Sometimes what I read in print, watch on screen, am told by another player, or read here makes perfect sense. Others times it does not.

If that point of view and experience is not a valid ticket to get into these discussions then I don't know what is.

Lou Figueroa
 
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BasementDweller said:
What I figured he was saying was to aim at one side of the pocket (at the facing) and use the inside english to ensure that you only miss the ball to the side of the pocket away from the facing.
Click to expand...
That's what he is saying. But that's just another way of saying "aim to hit the center of the pocket with sidespin, for which you'll need to adjust your aim toward the pocket facing to compensate for squirt".

That would effectively increase the pocket size (like the fairway example in golf).
Click to expand...
It's just common sidespin aiming, which obviously doesn't do that. The golf, tennis and bowling analogies are apples and oranges.

If you aim at the middle of the pocket using inside english you now only have half of the pocket to work with.
Click to expand...
You're misunderstanding what he means by "aim at".

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That's what he is saying. But that's just another way of saying "aim to hit the center of the pocket with sidespin, for which you'll need to adjust your aim toward the pocket facing to compensate for squirt".


It's just common sidespin aiming, which obviously doesn't do that. The golf, tennis and bowling analogies are apples and oranges.


You're misunderstanding what he means by "aim at".

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Okay...I now see what you were saying. Dang, I thought I had you for a second.

This still seems like it may have legs though - if only for cinching balls. If I aligned the shot to hit the facing of the pocket and then cue to hit with just a bit of inside, it would appear to me that I have more margin for error to actually make the shot. When you consider that all I would have to do in that situation is ensure that I hit the cue ball somewhere between dead center and extreme inside english (with a firm stroke).

I think I understand that you are saying that every time you use english that you have to compensate in a similar fashion. So this is nothing new. But something seems different about CJ's concept. Unfortunately I can't quite put my finger on it.

Bottom line for me is I've never considered using inside english to cinch a ball in this manner. I've always just used center ball. I'm going to have to take this to the table and see what I think.
 
BasementDweller said:
Bottom line for me is I've never considered using inside english to cinch a ball in this manner. I've always just used center ball. I'm going to have to take this to the table and see what I think.
Click to expand...


lol. Is it time to talk about "get-in english" yet?

Lou Figueroa
 
BasementDweller said:
If I aligned the shot to hit the facing of the pocket and then cue to hit with just a bit of inside, it would appear to me that I have more margin for error to actually make the shot.
Click to expand...
Aligning the shot to hit the facing and then adding sidespin to deflect it toward center pocket is exactly the same thing as trying to hit center pocket with sidespin and adjusting your aim toward the facing to compensate for squirt. It's just stated in reverse order.

When you consider that all I would have to do in that situation is ensure that I hit the cue ball somewhere between dead center and extreme inside english (with a firm stroke).
Click to expand...
This is not the case. You can miss this shot in exactly the same ways (and the same number of ways) you can miss any sidespin shot.

...something seems different about CJ's concept. Unfortunately I can't quite put my finger on it.
Click to expand...
He's just describing the same old thing in a different way. You're not the only one confused by it, and this isn't the first time the idea has been floated on these forums.

I'm going to have to take this to the table and see what I think.
Click to expand...
Good luck.

pj
chgo
 
I thought CJ was saying to not use english but use cue ball deflection ?

" don't pivot, but keep the cue straight so the ball veers slightly "

I have read about using english to aid pocketing, but this is the 1st time I've read about using deflection. I am new to pool and AZ so maybe it has been discussed before.

Seems like in this thread everyone keeps talking about english, but I don't think that is what CJ is saying.
 
ronscuba said:
I thought CJ was saying to not use english but use cue ball deflection ?

" don't pivot, but keep the cue straight so the ball veers slightly "
Click to expand...
Here's the whole quote:

"cue it left of center and go STRAIGHT through the ball....don't pivot, but keep the cue straight so the ball veers slightly"

Cueing "left of center" = sidespin. There's no cue ball deflection without sidespin.

Seems like in this thread everyone keeps talking about english, but I don't think that is what CJ is saying.
Click to expand...
Sidespin comes with squirt (cue ball deflection), and it's the squirt that CJ emphasizes. The sidespin is a side effect of his technique, but it's there.

pj
chgo
 
ronscuba said:
I thought CJ was saying to not use english but use cue ball deflection ?

" don't pivot, but keep the cue straight so the ball veers slightly "

I have read about using english to aid pocketing, but this is the 1st time I've read about using deflection. I am new to pool and AZ so maybe it has been discussed before.

Seems like in this thread everyone keeps talking about english, but I don't think that is what CJ is saying.
Click to expand...

That was the distinction I was looking for (maybe without a difference but oh well).

I do think the focus on the deflection (squirt would be more accurate I think) is what I was missing. Of course to get squirt you must use english.

The only other time I can think where it's been mentioned that you focus on the squirt instead of the english is on what I believe West Point 1987 referred to as the "wrinkle" shot, where you use the deflection to go around an interfering ball, then have the swerve bring the cue ball back to hit the intended object ball.

I suppose you could just throw up your hands and say you are just thinking about the same thing in the opposite direction but I think you can categorize shots in certain ways. There are shots that I shoot that are swerve shots and there are shots that I shoot that are throw shots. There are some that I shoot that are squirt shots and so on. I don't actually worry about all the variables on all the shots although I admit that are all present in my subconscious.

For me maybe CJ's shot is a squirt shot. I've never approached it that way before. Of course, I'm just throwing my thoughts out there on a slow day at work. I'll probably get home tonight and try it out on the table for a few minutes and forget about it. That's what I usually do.:thumbup:
 
BasementDweller said:
The only other time I can think where it's been mentioned that you focus on the squirt instead of the english is on what I believe West Point 1987 referred to as the "wrinkle" shot, where you use the deflection to go around an interfering ball, then have the swerve bring the cue ball back to hit the intended object ball.
Click to expand...
This is often suggested as a "benefit" of squirt, but of course you can do the same thing with a low-squirt cue by simply aiming a little to the side.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Here's the whole quote:

"cue it left of center and go STRAIGHT through the ball....don't pivot, but keep the cue straight so the ball veers slightly"

Cueing "left of center" = sidespin. There's no cue ball deflection without sidespin.


Sidespin comes with squirt (cue ball deflection), and it's the squirt that CJ emphasizes. The sidespin is a side effect of his technique, but it's there.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I understand there will be some sidespin english, but CJ is emphasizing the squirt aspect. I believe the sidespin created in this example works against pocketing the ball. It is the CB deflection that is helping. That is what makes the technique interesting.

I am used to reading about FHE and BHE to reduce squirt and using english to gear the ball in. Generating english/spin in the opposite direction than CJ's method.

I have not read about the technique of using and emphasizing deflection before. To me, it is new and I am curious to try it out on the table.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Here's the whole quote:

"cue it left of center and go STRAIGHT through the ball....don't pivot, but keep the cue straight so the ball veers slightly"

Cueing "left of center" = sidespin. There's no cue ball deflection without sidespin.


Sidespin comes with squirt (cue ball deflection), and it's the squirt that CJ emphasizes. The sidespin is a side effect of his technique, but it's there.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

If you knew what you didn't know you wouldn't not know it.... Danny D.

Cueing off center parallel and not pivoting may or may not put discernible english on the cueball depending on how much offset... You make it seem like CJ is going 2 tips to the inside and we know better from statements he has personally made.

CJ is cueing slightly to the inside and letting the contact roll the cueball out to help cut the OB.... with a slight inside strike you won't have anything resembling english on the cueball for more than a few rotations before the cloth straightens it out and if any "is" left at contact the contact induced spin negates it...

Basically what he is doing is hedging to make sure he can never under cut the ball... At worst he makes it where he aimed....

This technique also takes speed sensitivity and tosses it out the window. You can misjudge speed and the ball still finds the pocket.

You should actually try something before dismissing it because you don't can't or won't open your mind to something that you haven't read on Dr. Dave's site... Otherwise we could just hire a parrot and have someone read the academic papers to him and we would have a perfect replacement PJ..... Parrot Johnson
 
Hitting the CB a slight bit to the side of center will have it leave the cue tip at a slight angle.

Can't the CB slide/skid forward at that angle before it catches the knap of the felt and then starts to roll and spin around on it due to applied english?
 
LAMas said:
Hitting the CB a slight bit to the side of center will have it leave the cue tip at a slight angle.

Can't the CB slide/skid forward at that angle before it catches the knap of the felt and then starts to roll and spin around on it due to applied english?
Click to expand...
Sidespin happens immediately - and with any amount of offcenter hit. Forward rotation is delayed by the sliding cue ball. You can see the combined effect on drag draw / sidespin shots (used to increase the effect of sidespin).

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
As I've been trying to tell you, this is nothing more than aiming center pocket with inside english.

Do I really have to point this out?

pj <- wow
chgo
Click to expand...

I don't agree, PJ. In the picture, he would actually be aiming a little to the right side of the pocket, but would be achieving a center-pocket hit (or even a little left of center) because of the squirt put on the CB from the use of inside english.

I know you understand that, but I think you're just trying to call the resulting center-pocket hit the same as aiming center-pocket.

Roger
 
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