Long stroke vs. short stroke?

[RRfireblade]

I don't think grip has any more direct effect on cue ball action than bridge length does. But it can easily have the same kind of indirect effect: screwing up tip/CB placement accuracy.

I don't think the "lifting" effect you describe is real unless you misshit the CB.

pj
chgo

I agree 100%.

It's another one of those things that may possibly influence an outcome due to other factors but not neccesarily are the direct cause of it.

In this example, there's no reason why a person could not create dramatic amount of draw with a tight grip although a tight grip MAY inhibit that ability if it happens to affect the intended delivery of the cue. It may or it may not but is not the defining factor.

 

[pwd72s]

Thread title made me think I was on a car guy forum.

Generally speaking, a long stroke engine gives more torque with a flatter torque curve, while a short stroke engine revs faster yielding more horsepower within a narrower torque band.

On the pool table my stroke length varies depending on the shot...I do my best to follow through..

 

[RRfireblade]

Generally speaking, a long stroke engine gives more torque with a flatter torque curve, while a short stroke engine revs faster yielding more horsepower within a narrower torque band.

That might hold true in pool as well.

Hmm....

 

[Uski]

yes there are diffrent types of stroke shots that affect the cue ball diffrently.......hope im understanding what u mean

 

[naji]

Bridge length has nothing to do with "cue deflection" (squirt).


Follow through helps you hit the CB where you intend to, nothing more. Hitting the CB where you intend to (with or without follow through) is how you "apply effective english".

pj
chgo

I kindly disagree, I will let other AZBer comment on this.

 

[Scott Lee]

PGHteacher...The bolded statement says it all. MOST pro players do not know how things happen...and worse, cannot explain it in a comprehensible way, that can be backed up with facts. In other words they know how to "do" something, and can repeat it...but they don't know the physics behind it, or are mistaken about why things work the way they do. I'm in full agreement with RRfireblade...no change based on bridge or stroke length...only based on hitting the CB in a slightly different place. We teach a 'natural' bridge length for most shots. Then speed and spin are the variables involved in what happens after contact. The mentions of grip pressure are dead on as well.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Yes so far as I can tell you are the only one who has understood the question, I don't know how to phrase it any other way; at least not now. My friend (who is an excellent player) swers that type of stroke effects the CB in certain ways and I keep telling him that simple physics say otherwise, and I actually put it to him exactly the same way; I said "the CB doesn't care what KIND of stroke you put on it, it only knows where you hit it, at what angle and how hard you hit it AND THAT'S IT!" but he was taught by this former touring pro and actually toured around with him and he stands by this statement and says that I don't know what I am talking about.

 

[Scott Lee]

naji...You can kindly disagree all you want. It doesn't change the reality that your friend is incorrect...as is his "former touring pro" mentor.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I kindly disagree, I will let other AZBer comment on this.

 

[irock]

With a long stroke, on some shots I have always battled the tendency to bring the cue slightly to my body on the back swing. A shorter stroke, for me eliminates the problem, I also think that on bar tables, a shorter stroke can be more effective than on big tables. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[scratchs]

I think most would do well with a length of 6-10 inchs,,,
an Trampsteamer,,I'm reffering to the bridge...

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Try hitting that draw shot with a tight/death grip and force-following through. I'll bet you'll lift that cue ball up off the table, and you never touched the table surface! The reason why this happens is that with the tight/death grip, you're minimizing the natural deflection of the cue tip away from the cue ball, and instead the cue tip is forcing the cue ball upwards.

Give it a try.
-Sean

Great post, Sean. You hit the (cue ball) nail on its head.

We can say re: physics that the cue ball only cares where it's struck and how hard but there differences hitting the same cue ball spot with a level or non-level cue and more subtly by which section of the tip makes contact, etc.

Longer bridges/open bridges are an aid to aim but more compact bridges can experience less stroke trouble. A long bridge and a pendulum-style stroke requires good timing to hit the cue ball right, so the friend who was tutored by a pro on this thread is correct in saying they can put on a "type of stroke" to get varied effects on the cue ball--without them realizing they have an enhanced downward or upward angle to their stroke, etc.

A fun (tough) part of teaching is assessing which stroke flaws are doing what to the cue ball and whether it's stance, stroke or aim rubric that is the culprit.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Let me put it this way. It is not how long your stroke is , but how straight it is that matters.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

In fact, to really demonstrate the difference grip pressure makes, if you use a normal grip on a level cue when hitting an extreme draw shot, you get just that -- an extreme draw shot. Now, use a tight grip on that cue (and I mean a death grip), and hit the same shot, in exactly the same place on the cue ball, with the same power, using the same level cue. Really focus on keeping that cue level, don't allow the cue ball to deflect the tip, and follow through. Result -- most often, you'll "lift" the cue ball up off the table surface (without scooping!), and not get a draw shot at all.

Yes, this is what I experience as well, but everything I've read says it makes no difference because the contact time is so short that only velocity matters. The only way I can get decent draw on a level stroke is to keep a loose wrist and let the weight of the cue do the work. Everything else seems to create deceleration at impact. And you can have deceleration occurring at impact, even with a high cue velocity.

Personally, I think that a loose wrist promotes some degree of wrist snap, and wrist snap is what provides the final acceleration of so many types of strokes in various athletic activities. I see this all the time when I watch pros play, but (like elbow drop) everybody keeps saying your shouldn't do it so I keep my trap shut.

When I teach fly casting, I tell folks to keep a fairly loose grip until the very end, and then just squeeze the rod grip to turn over the fly line. Without doing this, the line makes a big, open loop, but tightening up on the grip forces a wrist snap whether you want it or not, and the fly line responds with a high-speed, tight loop that gets better distance and resists the wind much better. I suspect the same principle is at play in a billiard stroke.

 

[whitewolf]

Ok if this has been talked about a lot I sure have had no luck in finding it. I am having an argument with my friend and wanted to know every ones opinion about type of stroke having an effect on the path of the cue ball, not how the (for most people) body functions; but JUST the different type of stroke. I hope I am being clear, some may need a farther explanation.

Old timers used a much shorter stroke compared to today's players, except for Alex Pagulan (sp?) and Rodney Morris.

 

[JoeW]

With a long stroke there is more opportunity to steer the cue stick off line; come in at the wrong angle. The reverse is true about follow through; less follow through leads to a tendency to take the cue stick off the best line of approach.

I can’t prove it but I know I have hit the same spot on the cue ball during the break shot. However, if I pull my arm in (or throw it out) the cue ball does not hit the head ball as intended.

While I think these statements are true there is also the need for a longer back stroke when draw is required. This means that more concentration is needed when draw is required.

The type of stroke does influence the cue ball. Hitting in the same spot from different angles causes the cue ball to go to different places. To insure the angle of approach is “right” the right stroke with attention to detail is needed.

A shorter back stroke leads to a straighter stroke for most of us. Consistent, longer than required, follow through also leads to a better angle of attack.

 

[naji]

Let me put it this way. It is not how long your stroke is , but how straight it is that matters.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

See we all go down on a shot, do warm up, then hit, we miss!! why
We aim the same, follow same routine, we follow through, only variable that we do not know and cannot see for sure is how our arms are lined up and how are they going to move. By long arm swing warm up, you actually free your mussels and allows them to be in line, this is the reason shots where CB near rail are missed often.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Sean:
...use a tight grip ... you'll "lift" the cue ball up off the table surface

slop:
Yes, this is what I experience as well, but everything I've read says it makes no difference because the contact time is so short that only velocity matters.

Velocity, tip/CB contact point and angle of attack. Not grip pressure. As knowledgable a player as Freddy The Beard even thinks a tight grip helps to "tighten up" some banks - he's wrong too.

The only way I can get decent draw on a level stroke is to keep a loose wrist and let the weight of the cue do the work. Everything else seems to create deceleration at impact. And you can have deceleration occurring at impact, even with a high cue velocity.

Acceleration vs. deceleration is another red herring - like following through, it's an indirect factor (it affects the straightness of your stroke, not its effectiveness in general).

Personally, I think that a loose wrist promotes some degree of wrist snap, and wrist snap is what provides the final acceleration of so many types of strokes in various athletic activities. I see this all the time when I watch pros play, but (like elbow drop) everybody keeps saying your shouldn't do it so I keep my trap shut.

I think a relaxed wrist is also like follow through and a relaxed grip - it helps with a straight stroke. I don't think you should try to emphasize it to get more cue speed (or you might counteract the positive effect).

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

It's amazing and sad that in this day an age, with all the testing that has been done on the subject, that so many on here, especially long term members, have no clue as to the actual science involved. Rrfireblade and Scott Lee are right.

 

[Scott Lee]

The difference is in the timing of the stroke. It is far easier to train the bicep to swing the cue (along a premeasured range of motion), at any rate of acceleration (from lag speed to break speed), with a relaxed muscle. A tight grip/poor cradle makes the timing more prone to small errors (errors in timing, which relate directly to errors in missing where you were aiming on the CB), because you're with a starting with a strongly flexed muscle to begin with. When someone tenses up...whether it be in their grip, their arm & shoulder, or their whole body...it makes the whole process much more difficult to repeat. Repeatable under pressure is a sure formula for success.

Relaxed cradle = KISS...KISS = higher proficiency...particularly under pressure.

C'mon Larry...you KNOW this, because I proved it to you in person! Now...drink the koolaid! LOL

Scott Lee

you beat me to the post
the death grip often indirectly causes the cue to raise which raises the contact point on the cue ball thus less draw
also loose grip might allow for more acceleration thus faster speed at contact(last point my theory)

 

[Scott Lee]

PJ...Not exactly true...however, it's a strong reason why we don't teach "followthrough", but instead define a student's natural finish position, which incorporates several variables, including, among others, stance, bridge, grip, and timing. These things are all measurable. You can't fix what you don't know about (video review), and you can't fix what you can't measure (there are several ways to measure things). When your stroke has a beginning and ending point (which is virtually the same for most shots), mentally and physically, it's SO much easier to train yourself to play better. When you do things differently, the timing is much tougher to predict.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Follow through helps you hit the CB where you intend to, nothing more.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

The difference is in the timing of the stroke. It is far easier to train the bicep to swing the cue (along a premeasured range of motion), at any rate of acceleration (from lag speed to break speed), with a relaxed muscle. A tight grip/poor cradle makes the timing more prone to small errors (errors in timing, which relate directly to errors in missing where you were aiming on the CB), because you're with a starting with a strongly flexed muscle to begin with. When someone tenses up...whether it be in their grip, their arm & shoulder, or their whole body...it makes the whole process much more difficult to repeat. Repeatable under pressure is a sure formula for success.

Relaxed cradle = KISS...KISS = higher proficiency...particularly under pressure.

C'mon Larry...you KNOW this, because I proved it to you in person! Now...drink the koolaid! LOL

Scott Lee

scott
i drank the cool aid
i saw the light(s)
im playing better...:smile:

scott i think we said the same thing just in different languages....
i said death grip= less acceleration
you said relaxed grip= better timing