Image of Pool, in Fact, was Created by a Con Artist

[CJ Wiley]

The Color of Money

My point is that "The Music Man" did not "in fact create the image of pool" in this country any more than "Guys and Dolls" created the image of the underworld of New York City.

Lou Figueroa

...or the Sopranos created organized crime....I agree....he just duplicitously painted that image and millions of people watched....it reminded me of H.G. Wells 'War of the Worlds' on the radio....people "thought" it was real and there's a big difference between aliens attacking the world and pool being an "evil game".:grin-devilish:

 

[lfigueroa]

...or the Sopranos created organized crime....I agree....he just duplicitously painted that image and millions of people watched....it reminded me of H.G. Wells 'War of the Worlds' on the radio....people "thought" it was real and there's a big difference between aliens attacking the world and pool being an "evil game".:grin-devilish:

Yes, millions watched, but pool’s image was already in the toilet before 1957.

AND consider this: “Professor Harold Hill” the central character in “The Music Man” is clearly made out to be a con man. So in the song “Ya Got Trouble” he paints a bad image of pool because he knows there’s only one source of music instruction in the city and he sees the potential of starting up a boy’s band, selling instruments and uniforms, and then taking off with the dough before delivery. Audiences knew that what Harold Hill was selling was bogus -- including his rant against pool ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[duckie]

Well, here is a little info on Music Man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Music_Man

Seems the movie only reflects the current imagine of pool during the author's youth.

It is interesting that the con man was not a pool player but a salesman.....hmmm......

The movie does give a insight on where the future growth of pool comes from....the kids.

The real fault for the current imagine is two fold. One is bars with pool tables and that allow smoking and the other no real amateur regional series of the pool games. Plus there is a real lack of professionalism in pool in general.

I've been to Hawleys in Dallas, Rusty's in Arlington, Clicks/Speeds out on 360 and the Billiard Den. Bars with pool tables and not pool rooms.

This is a pool room. https://www.google.com/maps?layer=c...X&ei=UelVUOmpJqeoiALmv4HoBg&ved=0CG4Q2hQoADAA

Their main focus is pool and 3 cushion. They keep their table up ok. Keep the place clean, no riff raff, nice owners, friendly staff and only 10 minutes from me. This is a hidden little room in the bay area. This is the type of place you will not have any issue with bringing anyone to unlike the places I mentioned above. The two markets that can be tapped to grow pool are kids and retirees/seniors. For these two markets, a more rooms like Edgies need to be around.

So, in fact, it is really the majority room owners that are the ones that created the current imagine of pool and the movies are only reflecting what this.

Whats is between league play/local handicap tourneys and pro level tourneys? Well, nothing really. There is a gap for the player that wants more that leagues/local handicap tourneys offer. There is no feeder series to the pro level. Not everyone wants to go through all the hassles of playing for money. There are players that also prefer 14.1 or 8 ball over 9 or 10. The IPT had the right idea, but wrong people in place.

Why are room owners left out when it comes to the imagine and growth of pool? These are the people that will benefit the most in any positive changes in pool. As nice as Edgies is, there is more they could do to grow the sport and the same goes for a other good places in the area.

I've yet to see a youth league or a senior league out here. But this is hard to do when the places are bars with pool tables like I mentioned above.

Why is high school football so big in Texas? Because football and other sports have always had the support of the school system. Golf, basketball, soccer, baseball and others have the support of the school system whereas this is very limited in pool. One of the issues a person that runs a pool school program was having a heard time to find a place to use because so if wanted to stop the sell of alcohol while the kids were there. My daughter took a bowling class her senior year and my first thought was why not pool.

The imagine of pool will not change until the real values are playing pool brings into a person life which has nothing to do with money. Hard work pays off. Somethings just don't go your way. Proper planing and execution goes along way in reaching a goal.

Long time ago while I was kinda in a altered state playing pool, I went into a monologue about why running playing 8 ball was like a day in life. The break was the morning and like everyday, the break is never the same. Some breaks give you easy run out, others you have to work through problems to get to your final goal. Same days are the same way. You can breeze through them or a day can drag out forever. It is how you approach the problems that arise during a tough run that tests how you are. Tough times do the same thing.

Does pools imagine really matter? In fact, pool imagine is way better than some pf the pro and amateur sports. Penn State, bounties, Lance Armstrong, dog fighting, on and on.

Seems to me that pools current imagine is pretty good as compared to the above.

Everyone want to think about whats good for the pro level and have forgotten where the pros come from. No source of pros, no pro level play.

 

[Hungarian]

My point is that "The Music Man" did not "in fact create the image of pool" in this country any more than "Guys and Dolls" created the image of the underworld of New York City.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,

Music Man may have not been the first contributor to pool's negative image but I'd say it created the most wide spread damage than anything else. I'd say it reached more mothers and fathers and households then any other thing..

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Trees of Life

Well, here is a little info on Music Man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Music_Man

Seems the movie only reflects the current imagine of pool during the author's youth.

It is interesting that the con man was not a pool player but a salesman.....hmmm......

The movie does give a insight on where the future growth of pool comes from....the kids.

The real fault for the current imagine is two fold. One is bars with pool tables and that allow smoking and the other no real amateur regional series of the pool games. Plus there is a real lack of professionalism in pool in general.

I've been to Hawleys in Dallas, Rusty's in Arlington, Clicks/Speeds out on 360 and the Billiard Den. Bars with pool tables and not pool rooms.

This is a pool room. https://www.google.com/maps?layer=c...X&ei=UelVUOmpJqeoiALmv4HoBg&ved=0CG4Q2hQoADAA

Their main focus is pool and 3 cushion. They keep their table up ok. Keep the place clean, no riff raff, nice owners, friendly staff and only 10 minutes from me. This is a hidden little room in the bay area. This is the type of place you will not have any issue with bringing anyone to unlike the places I mentioned above. The two markets that can be tapped to grow pool are kids and retirees/seniors. For these two markets, a more rooms like Edgies need to be around.

So, in fact, it is really the majority room owners that are the ones that created the current imagine of pool and the movies are only reflecting what this.

Whats is between league play/local handicap tourneys and pro level tourneys? Well, nothing really. There is a gap for the player that wants more that leagues/local handicap tourneys offer. There is no feeder series to the pro level. Not everyone wants to go through all the hassles of playing for money. There are players that also prefer 14.1 or 8 ball over 9 or 10. The IPT had the right idea, but wrong people in place.

Why are room owners left out when it comes to the imagine and growth of pool? These are the people that will benefit the most in any positive changes in pool. As nice as Edgies is, there is more they could do to grow the sport and the same goes for a other good places in the area.

I've yet to see a youth league or a senior league out here. But this is hard to do when the places are bars with pool tables like I mentioned above.

Why is high school football so big in Texas? Because football and other sports have always had the support of the school system. Golf, basketball, soccer, baseball and others have the support of the school system whereas this is very limited in pool. One of the issues a person that runs a pool school program was having a heard time to find a place to use because so if wanted to stop the sell of alcohol while the kids were there. My daughter took a bowling class her senior year and my first thought was why not pool.

The imagine of pool will not change until the real values are playing pool brings into a person life which has nothing to do with money. Hard work pays off. Somethings just don't go your way. Proper planing and execution goes along way in reaching a goal.

Long time ago while I was kinda in a altered state playing pool, I went into a monologue about why running playing 8 ball was like a day in life. The break was the morning and like everyday, the break is never the same. Some breaks give you easy run out, others you have to work through problems to get to your final goal. Same days are the same way. You can breeze through them or a day can drag out forever. It is how you approach the problems that arise during a tough run that tests how you are. Tough times do the same thing.

Does pools imagine really matter? In fact, pool imagine is way better than some pf the pro and amateur sports. Penn State, bounties, Lance Armstrong, dog fighting, on and on.

Seems to me that pools current imagine is pretty good as compared to the above.

Everyone want to think about whats good for the pro level and have forgotten where the pros come from. No source of pros, no pro level play.

Yes, you've been to all the pool rooms around Dallas/Ft Worth and they aren't anything special...I'm in the process of putting one together here in the Metroplex as well that should give the area a boost.

I like your idea of pool being a microcosm of life....I've often thought along those lines myself....except the balls were more like "trees" and I was trying to shoot my way out of the forest :thumbup2: your pool room looks like a nice place to play.... had you been to CJ's Billiard Palace? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma5PTds8YaI&feature=plcp

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,

Music Man may have not been the first contributor to pool's negative image but I'd say it created the most wide spread damage than anything else. I'd say it reached more mothers and fathers and households then any other thing..

It was a musical. The character singing the song was a con man. The whole story line was not meant to be taken seriously.

Now take a look at "The Hustler" which which came out a few years later. It was a popular movie that was realistic in portraying pool and hustlers in pool rooms and bars, along with associated drinking, gambling, and violence. A very dark movie and portrayal of the game far worse than one song in "The Music Man," no? And what happened in that case: the movie is generally credited with starting the great revival of pool the game enjoyed in the 60's with upscale, family-oriented rooms opening up all over the country. So for anyone to say that an innocent ditty like, "Ya Got Trouble" created an image that already existed, or helped make it worst -- when "The Hustler" helped the game -- is kind of silly.

Lou Figueroa

 

[CJ Wiley]

Could Tony Soprano and Pauly play pool?

It was a musical. The character singing the song was a con man. The whole story line was not meant to be taken seriously.

Now take a look at "The Hustler" which which came out a few years later. It was a popular movie that was realistic in portraying pool and hustlers in pool rooms and bars, along with associated drinking, gambling, and violence. A very dark movie and portrayal of the game far worse than one song in "The Music Man," no? And what happened in that case: the movie is generally credited with starting the great revival of pool the game enjoyed in the 60's with upscale, family-oriented rooms opening up all over the country. So for anyone to say that an innocent ditty like, "Ya Got Trouble" created an image that already existed, or helped make it worst -- when "The Hustler" helped the game -- is kind of silly.

Lou Figueroa

And then 'The Color of Money' created the wave of popularity and upscale pool rooms of the late 80's and 90's...Mainstream people are usually MOST interested in the "underworld element" of pool....the gambling and hustling mystique is almost as popular as the mob theme of 'The Sopranos'.

 

[lfigueroa]

Could Tony Soprano and Pauly play pool?

duh. There was a pool table in the back room of The Bada Bing.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Hungarian]

Lou,

I don't really know what has had the biggest positive or negative impact on pool except for The Color of Money. And I don't know what happened before 1957 regards to pool. I did witness first hand the shot in the arm that the Color of Money delivered. And it was that movie that got me deeply involved in pool.

Regarding the subject at hand, all I can say is over the course of my life in pool I've had many more people make a reference to the Music Man vs The Hustler. When I remind most non pool people about the Hustler they say oh, yeah I remember that movie, who was in it..

But many more non pool people (usually folks older than 35) seem to remember the song "trouble with a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for pool. And that's the kind of stuff that seems to stick in my eyes. I don't remember 1957 since I was not born then.

Most non pool people rarely remember the story line of the Hustler and that Fast Eddie got his thumbs broken, unless they are old movie buffs..

Sh!t, I have no idea why pool is in the crapper, all I know is that it is...

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,

I don't really know what has had the biggest positive or negative impact on pool except for The Color of Money. And I don't know what happened before 1957 regards to pool. I did witness first hand the shot in the arm that the Color of Money delivered. And it was that movie that got me deeply involved in pool.

Regarding the subject at hand, all I can say is over the course of my life in pool I've had many more people make a reference to the Music Man vs The Hustler. When I remind most non pool people about the Hustler they say oh, yeah I remember that movie, who was in it..

But many more non pool people (usually folks older than 35) seem to remember the song "trouble with a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for pool. And that's the kind of stuff that seems to stick in my eyes. I don't remember 1957 since I was not born then.

Most non pool people rarely remember the story line of the Hustler and that Fast Eddie got his thumbs broken, unless they are old movie buffs..

Sh!t, I have no idea why pool is in the crapper, all I know is that it is...

"The Color of Money" had a big impact on pool, but it was nothing compared to what "The Hustler" did for pool along with the subsequent "Minnesota Fats" mystique exploited by Rudolf Wanderone.

"The Music Man" after its initial Broadway run in 1957 was made into a classic movie staring Robert Preston and Shirley Jones (and Ron Howard) in 1962. It was had several productions and revivals all over the world, most recently I believe a 2000 production on Broadway. But remember there is just one song in the whole show that mentions pool. The rest is about the boy's band, a love story, and the impending exposure of Professor Harold Hill for the fraud that he is. Yes, people remember catchy songs ("Seventy-Six Trombones" anyone?).

But pool's problems go back much further, which was my original point. In "McGoorty" the central character talks about how when he first came to Chicago in the early 1920's everyone knew that pool was for bums (as opposed to the billiards players.) So sure, some people may be able to recall the song from the musical, more of them probably remember Fast Eddie getting his thumbs broken. Regardless, pool image was in trouble way before either.

Lou Figueroa

 

[CJ Wiley]

that that was kept hidden will soon be revealed

duh. There was a pool table in the back room of The Bada Bing.

Lou Figueroa

Now you're starting understand the hidden element...."just when we thought he was out, we pulled him back in"

 

[CJ Wiley]

Be true to yourself, and what you choose to do

Lou,

I don't really know what has had the biggest positive or negative impact on pool except for The Color of Money. And I don't know what happened before 1957 regards to pool. I did witness first hand the shot in the arm that the Color of Money delivered. And it was that movie that got me deeply involved in pool.

Regarding the subject at hand, all I can say is over the course of my life in pool I've had many more people make a reference to the Music Man vs The Hustler. When I remind most non pool people about the Hustler they say oh, yeah I remember that movie, who was in it..

But many more non pool people (usually folks older than 35) seem to remember the song "trouble with a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for pool. And that's the kind of stuff that seems to stick in my eyes. I don't remember 1957 since I was not born then.

Most non pool people rarely remember the story line of the Hustler and that Fast Eddie got his thumbs broken, unless they are old movie buffs..

Sh!t, I have no idea why pool is in the crapper, all I know is that it is...

Pool is "in the crapper" because the people involved with it have never been able to portray it for what it actually is....it's like our own personal lives, if we go through life trying to be something we're not we are doomed to live a shallow, unfulfilled, unrewarding, and unprofitable existence....this is what the "managers" of pool have done, in effect.....it's not about pool's image being "positive or negative", these are just individual judgments....."as you judge, so too will you be judged"....this is more than what is said, and it applies directly to how pool's "life" has been mismanaged and those that play and love it have suffered as well. imho ---May I add that anyone that has been involved in professional pool has not done any of these things intentionally, on the contrary they always tried to portray professional pool as a clean, wholesome, fun game....which is one perspective, but how far would NASCAR, MMA, or Football advanced using these descriptions and strategies? 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Don't take your eye off the ball

Lou,

Music Man may have not been the first contributor to pool's negative image but I'd say it created the most wide spread damage than anything else. I'd say it reached more mothers and fathers and households then any other thing..

Yes, I'd have to agree with you on this one...it was certainly between the Music Man and The Hustler....I personally think pool may be a microcosm for life in general....I see the same trials and tribulations in people's games..especially when they "take their eye off the ball"

 

[lfigueroa]

Now you're starting understand the hidden element...."just when we thought he was out, we pulled him back in"

Bullfighting is the only art in which the artist is in danger of death and in which the degree of brilliance in the performance is left to the fighter's honor.
Ernest Hemingway

Lou Figueroa
hey, it makes about
as much sense

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool Match to the Death...sponsored by Franks Funeral Home*customers dying to get in

Bullfighting is the only art in which the artist is in danger of death and in which the degree of brilliance in the performance is left to the fighter's honor.
Ernest Hemingway

Lou Figueroa
hey, it makes about
as much sense

I always thought a "Pool Match to the Death" would get good ratings

 

[CJ Wiley]

Managing Pools Success Takes Management

"The Color of Money" had a big impact on pool, but it was nothing compared to what "The Hustler" did for pool along with the subsequent "Minnesota Fats" mystique exploited by Rudolf Wanderone.

"The Music Man" after its initial Broadway run in 1957 was made into a classic movie staring Robert Preston and Shirley Jones (and Ron Howard) in 1962. It was had several productions and revivals all over the world, most recently I believe a 2000 production on Broadway. But remember there is just one song in the whole show that mentions pool. The rest is about the boy's band, a love story, and the impending exposure of Professor Harold Hill for the fraud that he is. Yes, people remember catchy songs ("Seventy-Six Trombones" anyone?).

But pool's problems go back much further, which was my original point. In "McGoorty" the central character talks about how when he first came to Chicago in the early 1920's everyone knew that pool was for bums (as opposed to the billiards players.) So sure, some people may be able to recall the song from the musical, more of them probably remember Fast Eddie getting his thumbs broken. Regardless, pool image was in trouble way before either.

Lou Figueroa

The Whole Image of Professional Pool is not vibrant and lucrative because the people involved with it have never been able to portray it for what it actually is....it's like our own personal lives, if we go through life trying to be something we're not we are doomed to live a shallow, unfulfilled, unrewarding, and unprofitable existence....this is what the "managers" of pool have done, in effect.....it's not about pool's image being "positive or negative", these are just individual judgments....."as you judge, so too will you be judged"....this is more than what is said, and it applies directly to how pool's "life" has been mismanaged and those that play and love it have suffered as well. imho

 

[lfigueroa]

The Whole Image of Professional Pool is not vibrant and lucrative because the people involved with it have never been able to portray it for what it actually is....it's like our own personal lives, if we go through life trying to be something we're not we are doomed to live a shallow, unfulfilled, unrewarding, and unprofitable existence....this is what the "managers" of pool have done, in effect.....it's not about pool's image being "positive or negative", these are just individual judgments....."as you judge, so too will you be judged"....this is more than what is said, and it applies directly to how pool's "life" has been mismanaged and those that play and love it have suffered as well. imho

Where is it written that professional pool should be, or deserves to be: vibrant and lucrative?

If there ever was an accurate portrayal of professional pool, as it is today, I believe it would be a pretty ugly picture. And you cannot blame that on “the mangers of pool,” whomever you suspect those individuals to be. The players themselves, by and large though not all, are the ones responsible for their lot in life.

At Tunica I played "a pro” in the 1pocket division and during the match I made a mistake on the ball count and “the pro” tried (unsuccessfully) to take advantage, rather than behave like a sportman. And you know what -- I can't blame him. The game is so poor that it's all about the money and getting by. That I, as an amateur, would have behaved in exactly the opposite fashion, is perhaps only because I do not play the game for a living and have a sense of honor and fair play that is a luxury the pro cannot afford. Later, a friend from St. Louis said, “I watched your match and he purposely tried to screw you -- that’s what's wrong with pool and until they get rid of that stuff it will always be small time.”

That sums it up.

The legitimate folks in pool have not mismanage the game (the snake oil salesmen are another issue). The professional players who have failed to organize and work to the better good of all for these many years are the ones responsible. To blame it on anyone else is a lie.

Lou Figueroa

 

[CJ Wiley]

Welcoming a Positive Professional Pool Presentation

Where is it written that professional pool should be, or deserves to be: vibrant and lucrative?

If there ever was an accurate portrayal of professional pool, as it is today, I believe it would be a pretty ugly picture. And you cannot blame that on “the mangers of pool,” whomever you suspect those individuals to be. The players themselves, by and large though not all, are the ones responsible for their lot in life.

At Tunica I played "a pro” in the 1pocket division and during the match I made a mistake on the ball count and “the pro” tried (unsuccessfully) to take advantage, rather than behave like a sportman. And you know what -- I can't blame him. The game is so poor that it's all about the money and getting by. That I, as an amateur, would have behaved in exactly the opposite fashion, is perhaps only because I do not play the game for a living and have a sense of honor and fair play that is a luxury the pro cannot afford. Later, a friend from St. Louis said, “I watched your match and he purposely tried to screw you -- that’s what's wrong with pool and until they get rid of that stuff it will always be small time.”

That sums it up.

The legitimate folks in pool have not mismanage the game (the snake oil salesmen are another issue). The professional players who have failed to organize and work to the better good of all for these many years are the ones responsible. To blame it on anyone else is a lie.

Lou Figueroa

The Business of Professional Pocket Billiards is like any other...it has staffing, management, marketing, advertising, product sales, research and development, merchandising, operations directors, and public relation components.....I'm not blaming it on these people, I'm making the case that there ARE NONE OF THESE PEOPLE in Professional Pocket Billiards...I'm sure everyone in this Forum understands the difference....I value your opinion, however, the point is Different.....to have a chance to be a "vibrant and lucrative business" it MUST first have the standard operating procedure of a business....Getting into this without wanting to create a standard operating procedure would be stupid :withstupid: It's smart to learn from the past and move forward with a Business plan.....a plan of action that follows the rules of business...the same rules that golf, tennis, basketball, football, etc follow.:welcome: I'm sure many Pros would find this welcoming indeed. And of course those involved will be held accountable by a Code of Conduct, Code of Ethics and a Policies and a Procedures Manual that has a specific Mission Statement with guidelines.

 

[JCIN]

The Business of Professional Pocket Billiards is like any other...it has staffing, management, marketing, advertising, product sales, research and development, merchandising, operations directors, and public relation components.....I'm not blaming it on these people, I'm making the case that there ARE NONE OF THESE PEOPLE in Professional Pocket Billiards...I'm sure everyone in this Forum understands the difference....I value your opinion, however, the point is Different.....to have a chance to be a "vibrant and lucrative business" it MUST first have the standard operating procedure of a business....Getting into this without wanting to create a standard operating procedure would be stupid :withstupid: It's smart to learn from the past and move forward with a Business plan.....a plan of action that follows the rules of business...the same rules that golf, tennis, basketball, football, etc follow.:welcome: I'm sure many Pros would find this welcoming indeed. And of course those involved will be held accountable by a Code of Conduct, Code of Ethics and a Policies and a Procedures Manual that has a specific Mission Statement with guidelines.

Oh...its this thread again.

CJ I respect the fact you are a good player and in the past you organized some events. I cant play a lick but I have put together events that paid out over $40K to players so far this year and built a pretty solid brand in the industry during a really bad time to be running a pool business over the last five years. You want to know what has made me want to walk away more than anything? More than making subsistence wages for five years, more than being in debt to the IRS, more than all the frustrations of building any type of business on a shoe string ?

What has made me almost swear off pool forever is the players. The complete and utter lack of any professionalism whatsoever in many of the players has caused me to almost walk away several times. I say this not because I'm anything special but because its an example of how many people I know who feel the same way including several pro players who no longer play the game and plenty of people I know with the resources to make things happen.

You want to fix pro pool you better start with the players. People like me who love the game will fade the BS but people with real money who want to run it like a business will simply walk away. I have seen it happen several times and I am sure you have as well over the years. Speaking as a promoter who pays money to pro players I don't expect to have to lay out a detailed set of rules when it comes to basic common courtesy and professionalism. I expect players to show up on time, be an asset to the show, be polite and play hard. Thats it. You would be surprised how rare that actually occurs with professional players from this country. Europeans and Filipinos seem to get it just fine but our players are on the wrong page for the most part.

As someone who does all of the things you say do not exist in pool it kind of pisses me off to see someone come here player or not and throw around generalizations. It doesnt really surprise me though. Your recent internet posting spree strikes me as someone who has just discovered they like the feedback given on forums so they go nuts with sharing all of their opinions as fast as possible never stopping to think that possibly in the many years they werent here the general idea of those opinions has probably been discussed to death numerous times before.

Calling the people who pay the players today "stupid" is indicative of the type of player mentality that will keep this game exactly where it is in this country.

 

[CJ Wiley]

How Can I Make Myself More Clear?

Oh...its this thread again.

CJ I respect the fact you are a good player and in the past you organized some events. I cant play a lick but I have put together events that paid out over $40K to players so far this year and built a pretty solid brand in the industry during a really bad time to be running a pool business over the last five years. You want to know what has made me want to walk away more than anything? More than making subsistence wages for five years, more than being in debt to the IRS, more than all the frustrations of building any type of business on a shoe string ?

What has made me almost swear off pool forever is the players. The complete and utter lack of any professionalism whatsoever in many of the players has caused me to almost walk away several times. I say this not because I'm anything special but because its an example of how many people I know who feel the same way including several pro players who no longer play the game and plenty of people I know with the resources to make things happen.

You want to fix pro pool you better start with the players. People like me who love the game will fade the BS but people with real money who want to run it like a business will simply walk away. I have seen it happen several times and I am sure you have as well over the years. Speaking as a promoter who pays money to pro players I don't expect to have to lay out a detailed set of rules when it comes to basic common courtesy and professionalism. I expect players to show up on time, be an asset to the show, be polite and play hard. Thats it. You would be surprised how rare that actually occurs with professional players from this country. Europeans and Filipinos seem to get it just fine but our players are on the wrong page for the most part.

As someone who does all of the things you say do not exist in pool it kind of pisses me off to see someone come here player or not and throw around generalizations. It doesnt really surprise me though. Your recent internet posting spree strikes me as someone who has just discovered they like the feedback given on forums so they go nuts with sharing all of their opinions as fast as possible never stopping to think that possibly in the many years they werent here the general idea of those opinions has probably been discussed to death numerous times before.

Calling the people who pay the players today "stupid" is indicative of the type of player mentality that will keep this game exactly where it is in this country.

My "posting spree" has been 95% instructional (if you would have taken the time to read them)...sorry, you can't manage your employees.
If anyone wants to help that would be great and I still think many of us can team up and make a difference. :smile: