Living Legend
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i think this is a pretty good post ...
aiming and deflection... for a newbie
- Thread starter ddadams
- Start date
i think this is a pretty good post ...
It's good advise if you're looking for advise on elements that should be part of your game. But, it doesn't have anything to do with explaining what is happening with deflection. If he feels deflection is not a critical part of pool, he should state that.
I don't know why his statement set me off; I will apologize if it is felt my statement is too harsh.
Chalking does help to control deflection... You may not notice slight slipping at contact by feel if you are used to the occurrence.. But what I bet you notice is when you don't get as much english on the ball as you expected...
In some instances if you are not chalking every shot you may have instances where you do not get the english you were after or you MIGHT MISS a shot because of a slight slippage...... The slippage allows the cueball to squirt away from the contact... So the misses will be when applying sidespin and not straight top or draw.......
Loose grip and level cue hmmm..... I guess you could say a level stroke might be more conducive to finding the right speed where swerve = squirt but I am unsure of that... I tend to always use attack angle and speed to effect swerve but I don't know of a way I can eliminate squirt aside from pivot length which doesn't only apply to level cueing or light grip......
In some instances if you are not chalking every shot you may have instances where you do not get the english you were after or you MIGHT MISS a shot because of a slight slippage...... The slippage allows the cueball to squirt away from the contact... So the misses will be when applying sidespin and not straight top or draw.......
Loose grip and level cue hmmm..... I guess you could say a level stroke might be more conducive to finding the right speed where swerve = squirt but I am unsure of that... I tend to always use attack angle and speed to effect swerve but I don't know of a way I can eliminate squirt aside from pivot length which doesn't only apply to level cueing or light grip......
You pretty much nailed it with what I'm having issues with.
If I try and put a tip and a third or so of left or right center I'm going to have a baaaaaad time. And I'm sick of it.
It's a little fun trying to play position only using top/bottom but I'd like to be able to play center right and left without worrying about significant deflection and guess work..
No worries. Use a few striped balls as cue balls. (Wipe them clean afterwards of any chalk marks.)
Shoot a few into a far corner pocket slowly and with a little english. Use different elevations of cue stick with a well chalked tip (lightly coated but not ground on) and no chalk at all. Differences in cue ball squirt and cue ball swerve.
Personally, I find shooting with a completely level cue awkward. The movement for most strokes is straight forward and a bit downward as well. (There are shot techniques where the cue is angled upward in the stance.)
CB deflection (AKA squirt) has nothing to do with grip, cue levelness, or chalking; although, these things can contribute to playing well.
FYI, to those interested, the following video demonstrates squirt and swerve effects:
And much more information (including many more videos and instructional articles) on these topics can be found here:
I agree 100%.
LD shafts have both advantages and disadvantages.
Regards,
Dave
As has been pointed out to you more than once, squirt isn't affected by those things. Because swerve is affected, it can look like squirt is too - but it isn't.
Your persistence is remarkable, but it isn't a substitute for accurate information (another way of saying "repeating things doesn't make them true").
pj
chgo
By understanding how squirt is created and therefore what can affect it. It isn't rocket science, but it takes some ability to visualize in detail.
pj
chgo
I apologize for being a poor communicator. I sense there is a lack of balance on AZ in general when people try to talk in lay terms (English, I mean, not "english").
Non-level cues etc. do contribute to cue ball curve. If we are looking at cue stick deflection, not cue tip contact angle or chalk, as contributory/non-contributory to cue ball squirt, then yes, you and Dr. Dave are absolutely correct.
Now elevate the cue stick near 90 degrees and hit a very hard masse. It's going to "squirt" some, believe it, because the table is going to return resistance and vibration to the cue stick (lay terms, physics majors go easy on me.) What is a jump stroke if not a ball that "squirts" and which is affected by stick deflection, table slate properties, cloth properties and cue stick angle? That's why people want certain kinds of shafts on their jump cues.
Chalking and a light touch affect all this. So do swerving strokes, etc.
There are also multiple ways to stroke for english, by which I mean cue angles, which does not affect squirt, but certainly does affect squirt. Of course, pj will say there is only one way to hit a ball with certain english amounts of sidespin. Capiche?
I find myself pulled into another inane discussion at AZ. My fault! I apologize to everyone.
Agreed. CB curve is also called swerve, but I think everybody knows what you mean by "curve." However, this is an entirely different effect from CB deflection (AKA "squirt").
Cue stick deflection is related to squirt (as is cue endmass), but contact angle or chalk have nothing to do with it (assuming, of course, there is enough chalk to prevent a miscue). I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
Squirt occurs anytime the cue is hit off center, regardless of the cue elevation. The more important effect with masse shots, however, is swerve (AKA CB curve), which is a very different effect.
Jump shots (legal ones anyway) do not rely on squirt or cue stick deflection; although, they do have a lot to do with slate and cloth properties and cue angle (and more importantly, proper jump technique and appropriate equipment).
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me, even as a layman. Anytime English is imparted (regardless of the type of stroke), there is squirt (and swerve if the cue is not perfectly level, which is practically always the case in actual play due to required clearance over the rails).
Matt, I hope you don't take offense at my reply. That is not my intention. I just thought I should respond since you mentioned my name specifically and I wasn't sure what you were implying.
Regards,
Dave
PS: BTW, I'm trying to convince myself to use "english" instead of "English" to label "sidespin;" but "English" has been used for a long time and still seems to be the most common usage choice (e.g., in Billiards Digest and many recently published pool books and videos). This is something I would certainly be in favor of changing if I thought most people would accept it (e.g., magazine, book, and video editors).
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
There are also multiple ways to stroke for english, by which I mean cue angles, which does not affect squirt, but certainly does affect squirt.
I think the intended statement was that there are multiple ways to stroke for english, by which I mean cue angles, which do not effect squirt, but for certainty affect swerve...
Attack angle will indeed change swerve....
I do think however that a slight upstroke may maximize squirt moreso than a level cue and it will effectively delay swerve which usually is done thru increasing speed instead..... In this instance attack angle thru the ball can impact both.....
There are also multiple ways to stroke for english, by which I mean cue angles, which does not affect squirt, but certainly does affect squirt.
I think the intended statement was that there are multiple ways to stroke for english, by which I mean cue angles, which do not effect squirt, but for certainty affect swerve...
Attack angle will indeed change swerve....
I do think however that a slight upstroke may maximize squirt moreso than a level cue and it will effectively delay swerve which usually is done thru increasing speed instead..... In this instance attack angle thru the ball can impact both.....
I do understand how squirt is created, and I also understand how swerve is created, but I don't readily understand how one might be affected by certain things where the other cannot. I need help on that, and I was wondering if you could provide a link to a video that demonstrates where squirt is not affected by the same things that affect swerve? I know I could search the internet myself, but I'm very busy with other things right now, and I'm assuming you have already obtained video proof pertaining to this matter and wouldn't mind sharing it with me.
Thanks in advance.
Roger
By what mechanism do you think squirt might be affected by cue elevation or chalk?
pj
chgo
swerve and squirt both effected equally by speed, off center hits, humidity,clothetc
I have some of the same questions....are swerve and squirt both effected equally by speed, off center hits, humidity, cloth gauges, chalk, powder, condition of cloth, shaft size, tip diameter, tip material, cue ball weight, cue ball size, and deceleration?
I have some of the same questions....are swerve and squirt both effected equally by speed, off center hits, humidity, cloth gauges, chalk, powder, condition of cloth, shaft size, tip diameter, tip material, cue ball weight, cue ball size, and deceleration?
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I have some of the same questions....are swerve and squirt both effected equally by speed, off center hits, humidity, cloth gauges, chalk, powder, condition of cloth, shaft size, tip diameter, tip material, cue ball weight, cue ball size, and deceleration?
I have a suspicion that Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett will chime in on with very insightful answers but I will take a shot answering the ones I have a high sense of intuition about. Should be interesting as to where I am going to be wrong....
Assuming on a single change in variable....
Speed - Higher speeds maximized squirt and minimized swerve
Off Center Hits - More offset creates both more Squirt and Swerve
Humidity - Increases Friction - Less Squirt and more Swerve
Cloth Gauge - Thicker Less Squirt more Swerve
Chalk - More Abrasives = Better Tip connection= Less Squirt More Swerve
Powder - No impact....
Condition of Cloth - Dirtier = Less Squirt More Swerve
Shaft Size - Smaller Shaft = Less End Mass = Less Squirt no Change in Swerve
Tip Diameter - No Impact
Tip Material - Harder = Smaller Contact patch = Less Squirt no change in Swerve (Harder as in phenolic or G10)
Tip Radius (Added) No impact for most materials... Small impact with G10 or Phenolic Dime will create more squirt than a nickle Swerve will be unaffected.
Cue Ball Weight - Heavier = Less Squirt and More swerve
Cue Ball Size - No change at normal size variances as long as weight is the same. Would have to be enough of a variance to impact contact patch percentage of overall size significantly...
Deceleration - No Impact.... Actually no clue on this one.. Just seems that deceleration likely would result in a stroke that is difficult to judge.. I think the actual physics of the strike and resulting spin would be very little different for a shot accelerated if both contacts are of equivalent speed....
Downstroke (added) - Less Squirt More Swerve (Extreme end is the masse where swerve may pull the cueball out of the squirt phase before normal)
(Maximizes friction of the table bed)
Upstroke (added) - More Squirt and Less Swerve (Minimizes Table bed friction...)
Looking forward to the argui.... err discussion =)
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Swerve and Squirt wasn't a factor in the 80's and 90's..
I'm just glad we didn't have to know this....Swerve and Squirt wasn't a factor in the 70's,80's and 90's....thanks goodness I grew up in the "simple" days...we just had to worry about not leaving our cue in the hot car and warping our shaft.:wink: BTW - are these "low deflection" shafts also supposed to have an effect on "swerve"?
I'm just glad we didn't have to know this....Swerve and Squirt wasn't a factor in the 70's,80's and 90's....thanks goodness I grew up in the "simple" days...we just had to worry about not leaving our cue in the hot car and warping our shaft.:wink: BTW - are these "low deflection" shafts also supposed to have an effect on "swerve"?
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All squirt and swerve effects, along with supporting resources (including videos and instructional articles) can be found here:
I think answer to all of your questions (and those of others) can be found there, but here are some short answers for you:
Squirt depends only on tip contact point offset from center, shaft endmass, CB weight, and tip hardness (to a small degree). For more information and supporting resources, see:
Squirt does not depend on speed, humidity, cloth gauge, chalk, powder, condition of cloth, deceleration. For more info and supporting resources, see:
squirt resource page
squirt/swerve cue elevation effects
cloth effects
masse and swerve cue elevation effects
swerve effects
squirt/swerve cue elevation effects
cloth effects
masse and swerve cue elevation effects
swerve effects
Regards,
Dave
Swerve depends only on CB speed, CB spin (direction and amount), and friction between the ball and cloth (which can depend on several factors). The type of shaft has no direct effect on swerve. The purpose for an LD shaft is to reduce squirt. For more info and supporting resources, see:
Regards,
Dave
I'm not offended at all by your reply, sir. All is well.
I'm showing my age here but besides not wanting to confuse english with the English language as a "propa Gent", people still write draw and topspin and not Draw and Topspin and so...
I call it curve and not swerve as the term resonantes with people who can see it from baseball pitching and swerve, squirt and slide/skid/stun, too many s's... but...
What I meant was hitting a jump shot with english, doesn't the slate return some of the impact through the cue ball to the stick, causing further deflection and thus more squirt? I would think the effect is minimal if anything but...