John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

Joey:

I agree with your synopsis.

But, if I may, the point PJ's making, that I think is being missed, is that CJ's technique hedges all your bets to one side of the pocket. Meaning, you're placing all your margin of error on one side of the pocket. You have no margin of error on the other side of the pocket. If the slightest thing wrong happens where you end-up hitting the object ball too full -- say you get too full of a hit for whatever reason, not aiming where you think you're aiming, etc. -- you end up undercutting the pocket, possibly hitting the knuckle or the rail just before the pocket.

Like any aiming technique, it depends on how accurately you can aim at what you intend to aim at. If you can aim reliably at the near side of the pocket (notice the key operative word "reliably"), you don't have a problem. But there are some that'd rather have half the margin of error on each side of the point of aim (i.e. on either side of the center of the pocket), rather than lump all that margin of error to one side of the pocket and have nothing in reserve for the other side.

Just my thoughts,
-Sean

Sean,

I see your line of thinking. A user could possibly shut themselves out of the pocket going in the other direction with a bad hit. While this is a possibility, the first step needs to be clarified as to how I do it.

I start the shot with the idea I'm hitting center ball and aiming that way. My aimpoint is to the edge of the pocket with no squirt. I make my parallel move slightly over for the inside cueing after I am lined up with center cue ball to the pocket edge.

I finish the shot with the idea I'm still not using any spin. I stroke through the ball and if I'm off in the wrong direction I hit center ball and I pocket it. My original aimpoint being off is the only possibility of me missing on the edge of the pocket. Then no method will help me if I can't find the pocket from the git! :smile:

Joey's point is a good one. You are aiming for the side of the pocket or you are aiming for the center. Two different animals at an advanced level of play. The first method is telling yourself you are making the ball. The second method is more lax at getting the ball in the vicinity of the pocket.

This inside cueing technique doesn't use adjustments other than cue tip placement. Aiming center pocket and compensating for squirt by aiming to a different part of the pocket is adding a guess to the shot. A variable that may not be accurate and may cause a miss. And what about tip placement? Will it be correct since this method doesn't emphasize specific quantities of squirt?

Whatcha' tink, mahn? :grin-square:

Best,
Mike
 
Sean,

I see your line of thinking. A user could possibly shut themselves out of the pocket going in the other direction with a bad hit. While this is a possibility, the first step needs to be clarified as to how I do it.

I start the shot with the idea I'm hitting center ball and aiming that way. My aimpoint is to the edge of the pocket with no squirt. I make my parallel move slightly over for the inside cueing after I am lined up with center cue ball to the pocket edge.

I finish the shot with the idea I'm still not using any spin. I stroke through the ball and if I'm off in the wrong direction I hit center ball and I pocket it. My original aimpoint being off is the only possibility of me missing on the edge of the pocket. Then no method will help me if I can't find the pocket from the git! :smile:

Joey's point is a good one. You are aiming for the side of the pocket or you are aiming for the center. Two different animals at an advanced level of play. The first method is telling yourself you are making the ball. The second method is more lax at getting the ball in the vicinity of the pocket.

This inside cueing technique doesn't use adjustments other than cue tip placement. Aiming center pocket and compensating for squirt by aiming to a different part of the pocket is adding a guess to the shot. A variable that may not be accurate and may cause a miss. And what about tip placement? Will it be correct since this method doesn't emphasize specific quantities of squirt?

Whatcha' tink, mahn? :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

Mike:

I like your description. And like I said in my previous post, I agreed with Joey's clarification of what CJ is saying vs. what Pat is saying.

Like you, I've been playing with the technique. When I say "playing with," I mean "a couple three hours worth."

What I like about the technique:
[+] As long as you "root yourself" and can not only reliably aim at the near side of the pocket, but deliver accurately as well, you're a "lock" for pocketing the ball.
[+] You are using what in our industry is thought of as a negative aspect of hitting a ball off-center (i.e. squirt) to your ADVANTAGE. In other words, you're turning a negative into a positive.

What I don't like about the technique:
[-] You are hedging your bets -- and your margin of error -- all to one side of the pocket, leaving absolutely nothing for the other side of the pocket. So if you end up getting a fat hit, or if there are inconsistencies in the cloth that the cue ball is supposed to "squirt" over, or if you get what in snooker is referred to as a "kick" (i.e. the cue ball "sticks" and jumps), or you are just plain a wee bit off in your aim to that other side for whatever reason, you end up hitting to the opposite side where you are aiming, and you end up with a miss or bobbled ball, because there's no margin of error left that would normally "assist" you with an otherwise center-pocket aim.
[-] Maybe this is just me, but my natural inclination when I aim, is to aim at the center of the "abyss" of the pocket -- edge to edge -- in much the same way as when you pick up a pistol and you aim at "center mass." The natural inclination -- for me, anyway -- is to aim at "center mass" of the pocket, unless I have reason to do otherwise (e.g. cheating the pocket, or getting around a partially-obstructed pocket). As you know, I play 14.1, and my big thing is making sure you get into a rhythm of pocketing balls -- letting your natural instincts take over. For me, that's center mass -- no thought needed.

It could be that I need more time to commit the technique to memory, so that it's not a "center mass" thing anymore, but rather the near side of the pocket, in much the same way as when trying to walk in the rain, you hug the perimeter of a buildings as you walk. But that's a huge change in perception, and would require a lot of work to override it.

Of course, we can engage our conscious mind to do this -- override what comes naturally -- but you already know my thoughts on engaging the conscious mind in what should be a subconscious activity. ;)

-Sean
 
Patrick might be aiming for the center of the pocket but CJ is not aiming at the center of the pocket.
Maybe you can explain how that's true when we're both pointing our sticks through the same spot on the CB at the same spot in the pocket...?

pj
chgo
 
touch of inside for position

Guys,

We all know that making the OB is the first objective, but like Mike & Joey have mentioned, reining in the CB & the position options it offers may be of more benefit. I've used this 'shot' for many, many, years but more so for postion reasons than for actually poketing a ball. By employing it as a normal method of pocketing balls I would think that consistency would have to increase as a natural order of human experience.

Just my $0.02.
Rick
 
Maybe you can explain how that's true when we're both pointing our sticks through the same spot on the CB at the same spot in the pocket...?

pj
chgo

Patrick
Although I've never seen you hit a ball, I'm pretty sure you're not a terrible player but if you are being serious, then I don't know what to say. If you want me to explain how aiming at one side of the pocket is different than aiming at the center of a pocket then I'm done.

CJ's not aiming at the center of the pocket. You are.
 
Sean,

Well said, as usual. I applaud your efforts with the system. I, too, was a little uneasy with the idea of putting all my eggs in one side of the basket when I first started. What if? After locking down the stroke, all that went away. It just wasn't happening, so I put it out of my mind.

Your analogy about shooting your pistola at the biggest part of the mass was an interesting and valid technique. Most interesting because it brings to light the essence of this ball pocketing method as it relates to your example...windage.

Once you're lined up, you just have to pull/squeeze the trigger. No time for thinkin'.

Best,
Mike
 
Sean,

Well said, as usual. I applaud your efforts with the system. I, too, was a little uneasy with the idea of putting all my eggs in one side of the basket when I first started. What if? After locking down the stroke, all that went away. It just wasn't happening, so I put it out of my mind.

Your analogy about shooting your pistola at the biggest part of the mass was an interesting and valid technique. Most interesting because it brings to light the essence of this ball pocketing method as it relates to your example...windage.

Once you're lined up, you just have to pull/squeeze the trigger. No time for thinkin'.

Best,
Mike

Very true, Mike. I need more practice with the system, to give it a fighting chance, to see if it's a fit for me or not. While I don't like to override what comes naturally (especially if it's "working"), the definition of "natural" is a relative one. Do anything enough times, and it becomes "natural" or rote.

Cool stuff, regardless of how you "cut" it. ;)
-Sean
 
Maybe you can explain how that's true when we're both pointing our sticks through the same spot on the CB at the same spot in the pocket...?

pj
chgo
Joey:
...if you are being serious, then I don't know what to say. If you want me to explain how aiming at one side of the pocket is different than aiming at the center of a pocket then I'm done.
Wow. Let me put it even more simply:

If I aim my shot and then somehow freeze the stick in place, move aside and let CJ get down on the unmoved stick, he would be aiming his shot. If he aims his shot and then freezes his stick in place, moves aside and I get down on his unmoved stick, I'd be aiming my shot. There's no difference in where the stick, CB, OB and pocket are.

Exactly how is that aiming differently?

pj
chgo
 
Wow. Let me put it even more simply:

If I aim my shot and then somehow freeze the stick in place, move aside and let CJ get down on the unmoved stick, he would be aiming his shot. If he aims his shot and then freezes his stick in place, moves aside and I get down on his unmoved stick, I'd be aiming my shot. There's no difference in where the stick, CB, OB and pocket are.

Exactly how is that aiming differently?

pj
chgo

Lol

You need Champ to talk to you:grin:.
 
Wow. Let me put it even more simply:

If I aim my shot and then somehow freeze the stick in place, move aside and let CJ get down on the unmoved stick, he would be aiming his shot. If he aims his shot and then freezes his stick in place, moves aside and I get down on his unmoved stick, I'd be aiming my shot. There's no difference in where the stick, CB, OB and pocket are.

Exactly how is that aiming differently?

pj
chgo

Not true. You are changing what you said.

CJ said, he gets down on the shot aiming to the edge of the pocket and moves parallel over to inside cueing.

You said, you aim at the center of the pocket with inside and then adjust for squirt by changing your aiming line to the edge of the pocket.

Don't make me find the exact quotes. This is the point of contention. Your adjustment is for one shot. CJ's method is a consistent use of the squirt to promote repeated results, shot after shot. Exactly.

Best,
Mike
 
You are changing what you said.
I've said the same thing over and over in different ways trying to find a way that's understandable. It's exactly the same thing I've been saying.

CJ said, he gets down on the shot aiming to the edge of the pocket and moves parallel over to inside cueing.

You said, you aim at the center of the pocket with inside and then adjust for squirt by changing your aiming line to the edge of the pocket.
Yet we end up pointing our sticks and cue balls in exactly the same direction, at the same part of the pocket, every time.

pj
chgo
 
Lol

You need Champ to talk to you:grin:.
OK, you're unable to answer. No shame in that.
I think what we have here again is "a failure to communicate" (a "quote" from the movie "Cool Hand Luke").

I think it is important to distinguish between where the OB is being "aimed" (not accounting for squirt, swerve, and throw) vs. where the OB is actually going (as a result of squirt, swerve, and throw). I like using the term "targeting" to help clarify the situation. For example, somebody might be "aiming" the object ball to enter the left or right side of a pocket and using a touch of inside so net CB deflection results in the object ball actually entering the center of the pocket. You see this as aiming at the center of the pocket, but they see it as aiming left or right of center. Regardless, both of you are "targeting" the center of the pocket.

I hope that helps return things to civil and productive discussion and debate. (I know ... I'm an optimist. :embarrassed2:)

Regards,
Dave
 
I think what we have here again is "a failure to communicate" (a "quote" from the movie "Cool Hand Luke").

I think it is important to distinguish between where the OB is being "aimed" (not accounting for squirt, swerve, and throw) vs. where the OB is actually going (as a result of squirt, swerve, and throw). I like using the term "targeting" to help clarify the situation. For example, somebody might be "aiming" the object ball to enter the left or right side of a pocket and using a touch of inside so net CB deflection results in the object ball actually entering the center of the pocket. You see this as aiming at the center of the pocket, but they see it as aiming left or right of center. Regardless, both of you are "targeting" the center of the pocket.

I hope that helps return things to civil and productive discussion and debate. (I know ... I'm an optimist. :embarrassed2:)

Regards,
Dave
I might have tried that in one of my previous versions of this explanation. Maybe a new voice... Thanks for the effort.

By the way, I'm sensitive to the fact that I sound like a broken record with this point and I really don't want to become an annoyance, but each time I think I'll shut up somebody says something that gives me hope there's a glimmer of understanding.

pj <- getting hoarse
chgo
 
I'll hit my one shot and my opponent can hit there impressive array of shots

Not true. You are changing what you said.

CJ said, he gets down on the shot aiming to the edge of the pocket and moves parallel over to inside cueing.

You said, you aim at the center of the pocket with inside and then adjust for squirt by changing your aiming line to the edge of the pocket.

Don't make me find the exact quotes. This is the point of contention. Your adjustment is for one shot. CJ's method is a consistent use of the squirt to promote repeated results, shot after shot. Exactly.

Best,
Mike

I'll hit my one shot and my opponent can hit their impressive array of shots and I wonder what will happen? :eek:
 
"Aiming small" at the CB is a benefit of this technique that I can believe. Another similar benefit is "aiming small" at the pocket. In fact, I believe these are the benefits that players who try this are really seeing, and the "greater margin of error" they're experiencing is really just an overall "magnification" of the things they're looking at because they're focusing more closely.


Thank you PJ, I accept that...game over...now let's talk about your left foot.
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Patrick
Although I've never seen you hit a ball, I'm pretty sure you're not a terrible player but if you are being serious, then I don't know what to say. If you want me to explain how aiming at one side of the pocket is different than aiming at the center of a pocket then I'm done.

CJ's not aiming at the center of the pocket. You are.

Joey, Hi old Buddy...

When this thread was only about 600 posts, it was sort of fading out, like on page 4 or 5...I dug it out, and made a post, saying I wonder if I can 'gig' somebody, into cranking it up, and double the posts...Ha, here we are, at over 1600 posts, and NO visable end in sight..:boring2:

What does this say about the intelligence, of the average "Aiming System" responder ? Could it be, that NO ONE cares, or understands what the other is saying ?

Wheres my buddy Lou F ?...Has he given up ?...He may be the smartest guy on the forum, if he has !...:barf:..:)

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