See System
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Are you using the old method or the new? With the new method, there is only one line.
I got the documentation on the old system, but didn't try it or start using it until the new version, so I can't help much with the old. Ekkes is on here occasionally so hopefully he'll pipe in.
I can tell you with the new revised system there's only one line and it's much easier to "see" and use.
Scott
I got the documentation on the old system, but didn't try it or start using it until the new version, so I can't help much with the old. Ekkes is on here occasionally so hopefully he'll pipe in.
I can tell you with the new revised system there's only one line and it's much easier to "see" and use.
Scott
Ok I just went over the updated version.
Category 0 to 22 we use one line up for these shots.I cant figure out how to create a different aiming line doing the same process.My question is how you guys addressing the changing of the angle.
Anthony
For me it's all done pretty automatically by stepping toward the pocket, which will be at a different angle for the various shots. Also has mentioned the knee needs to be in the right place to promote the correct rotation of your body on the way down. Left cut = left edge, right cut = right edge.
If you play with those things a bit, it should become automatic. I definitely had a "aha" moment when I first was messing with it, and I hadn't even thoroughly read the whole manual yet. Maybe all the time I spent with Pro1 enabled me to pick this up quicker.
Scott
If you play with those things a bit, it should become automatic. I definitely had a "aha" moment when I first was messing with it, and I hadn't even thoroughly read the whole manual yet. Maybe all the time I spent with Pro1 enabled me to pick this up quicker.
Scott
Does Ekkes' stuff ship to the U.S. or is all of this in the form of a download?
I'd love to hear more real world reviews of this system. What parts of your game improved the most?
What level of player were you prior to using it? What level are you now?
I'd love to hear more real world reviews of this system. What parts of your game improved the most?
What level of player were you prior to using it? What level are you now?
So, I assume the SEE Training Program (the higher costing of the 2) gets me the whole thing? Everything?
I notice that you had an update to your training materials a while back. Will any future updates be free to users that have already paid for a complete kit?
Sorry for all the questions. I really am interested in purchasing the system. I just like to do my homework.
I notice that you had an update to your training materials a while back. Will any future updates be free to users that have already paid for a complete kit?
Sorry for all the questions. I really am interested in purchasing the system. I just like to do my homework.
Review of SEE System
What follows is a detailed review of my experiences with the SEE system so far. Will be a little long I think, but I'll try my best…
Background - been using Pro1 for the last year and a half, recently upgraded to Ekkes's new material, didn't spend much time with the old system since I was in the middle of learning and working with Pro1. I got the new SEE system in late August, and started playing with it at the table in late August / early September, so about 6 - 7 weeks ago.
The system contains a lot of material. Nearly 200 full pages of documentation with pictures and containing 5 - 6 hours of embedded videos explaining and demonstrating every detail. Shows all 3 categories of shots, all necessary adjustments, how to compensate for throw, how to adjust for english, banking, cue ball return paths, and more.
So far I'm very happy with the SEE system and have been using it full time, with a little Pro1 sprinkled in. Even though using the shadows on the balls may seem strange, turns out they are in very consistent positions, even with different lighting, and the advantage for me over Pro1 is simply the alignment. Everything uses discrete points on the balls - shadow, center, edge. With Pro1, while I got pretty good at it, I was always a little fuzzy picking up the A/C alignments, wasn't as clear to find the 1/4 point on the object ball. Now for similar shots I'm able to aim at a line between 2 discrete points which for me seems to cement the aim a little better. I can still make the same shots with Pro1, and oddly enough when in position with SEE I can actually "see" the CTE and secondary aim lines for Pro1 as well. The initial alignment though with SEE just makes me a little more confident over the shot.
The process is similar to Pro1 - you build your preshot routine around lining up the shot and stepping in a certain way, which rotates your body into different positions based on the angle of the shot and seems to auto-magically put you in the right alignment to make the shot. Doesn't seem like a very good candidate for a mathematically proven system, but much like Pro1, 90/90, etc., I think it's all about visual intelligence and letting your eyes lead your body into the right alignment. You could call these alignment systems just as easily as aiming systems, either way they can be very repeatable and really up your confidence, especially on difficult shots.
The shot transitions are different, which took a bit of getting used to. Shots I shot in Pro1 with the first category of shots (A/C alignment) can now be category 2 with SEE, but that came with time. There is more complexity with SEE, as Ekkes has adjustments for distance, speed, spin, etc. However, that's also a positive - once you learn the adjustments, you will no longer miss a shot that you have lined up perfectly to center pocket but shoot with a slow speed, or a lot of distance, or even with sidespin, the line corrections handle all of this seamlessly with a bit of training.
The only negative for me at this point is the category 3 shots, between 55 and 75 degrees. They require more of a pivoting move and some slightly different alignment steps, and for me thus far it has been a little inconsistent. I can make them just fine in reference positions, but when I free form it on the table it's not as automatic. I feel less systematic over these shots and definitely using more feel and experience to make them. I have not put as much time in on these, instead focusing on the bread and butter 0 - 50 degree shots, and if I had to make one in an important game I would resort to my Pro1 alignment. But Ekkes has been great in the correspondence we've had, and I'm sure with his help and more review and time at the table those shots will become as deadly as the rest.
I could go on, and would be happy (along with Ekkes I'm sure) to answer any individual questions. The material is definitely worth the money and the study, especially if you are familiar with aiming systems in general you should pick it up very easily. The knowledge along is worth the money. I plan to get Ron's new materials even though I may not switch everything to 90/90, just so I can fully understand his system instead of the overview understand I have now.
I've already showed the basics of SEE to a few people locally and they were astounded. My shot making is equal or slightly above where I was with Pro1 and that's with only 6 weeks invested, I'm still ingraining some of the adjustments and training my body to be in the right positions. But one advantage for me at least is I'm shooting long shots and using spin even better than I was before since I just tweak my starting position and am not even having to use BHE or any conscious feel to compensate for various effects. I think Pro1 is great for these shots as well, I just found that my eyesight and perception was letting me down the farther the object ball was from the cue ball, and looking at a more discrete line has helped with my confidence on these shots.
Scott
What follows is a detailed review of my experiences with the SEE system so far. Will be a little long I think, but I'll try my best…
Background - been using Pro1 for the last year and a half, recently upgraded to Ekkes's new material, didn't spend much time with the old system since I was in the middle of learning and working with Pro1. I got the new SEE system in late August, and started playing with it at the table in late August / early September, so about 6 - 7 weeks ago.
The system contains a lot of material. Nearly 200 full pages of documentation with pictures and containing 5 - 6 hours of embedded videos explaining and demonstrating every detail. Shows all 3 categories of shots, all necessary adjustments, how to compensate for throw, how to adjust for english, banking, cue ball return paths, and more.
So far I'm very happy with the SEE system and have been using it full time, with a little Pro1 sprinkled in. Even though using the shadows on the balls may seem strange, turns out they are in very consistent positions, even with different lighting, and the advantage for me over Pro1 is simply the alignment. Everything uses discrete points on the balls - shadow, center, edge. With Pro1, while I got pretty good at it, I was always a little fuzzy picking up the A/C alignments, wasn't as clear to find the 1/4 point on the object ball. Now for similar shots I'm able to aim at a line between 2 discrete points which for me seems to cement the aim a little better. I can still make the same shots with Pro1, and oddly enough when in position with SEE I can actually "see" the CTE and secondary aim lines for Pro1 as well. The initial alignment though with SEE just makes me a little more confident over the shot.
The process is similar to Pro1 - you build your preshot routine around lining up the shot and stepping in a certain way, which rotates your body into different positions based on the angle of the shot and seems to auto-magically put you in the right alignment to make the shot. Doesn't seem like a very good candidate for a mathematically proven system, but much like Pro1, 90/90, etc., I think it's all about visual intelligence and letting your eyes lead your body into the right alignment. You could call these alignment systems just as easily as aiming systems, either way they can be very repeatable and really up your confidence, especially on difficult shots.
The shot transitions are different, which took a bit of getting used to. Shots I shot in Pro1 with the first category of shots (A/C alignment) can now be category 2 with SEE, but that came with time. There is more complexity with SEE, as Ekkes has adjustments for distance, speed, spin, etc. However, that's also a positive - once you learn the adjustments, you will no longer miss a shot that you have lined up perfectly to center pocket but shoot with a slow speed, or a lot of distance, or even with sidespin, the line corrections handle all of this seamlessly with a bit of training.
The only negative for me at this point is the category 3 shots, between 55 and 75 degrees. They require more of a pivoting move and some slightly different alignment steps, and for me thus far it has been a little inconsistent. I can make them just fine in reference positions, but when I free form it on the table it's not as automatic. I feel less systematic over these shots and definitely using more feel and experience to make them. I have not put as much time in on these, instead focusing on the bread and butter 0 - 50 degree shots, and if I had to make one in an important game I would resort to my Pro1 alignment. But Ekkes has been great in the correspondence we've had, and I'm sure with his help and more review and time at the table those shots will become as deadly as the rest.
I could go on, and would be happy (along with Ekkes I'm sure) to answer any individual questions. The material is definitely worth the money and the study, especially if you are familiar with aiming systems in general you should pick it up very easily. The knowledge along is worth the money. I plan to get Ron's new materials even though I may not switch everything to 90/90, just so I can fully understand his system instead of the overview understand I have now.
I've already showed the basics of SEE to a few people locally and they were astounded. My shot making is equal or slightly above where I was with Pro1 and that's with only 6 weeks invested, I'm still ingraining some of the adjustments and training my body to be in the right positions. But one advantage for me at least is I'm shooting long shots and using spin even better than I was before since I just tweak my starting position and am not even having to use BHE or any conscious feel to compensate for various effects. I think Pro1 is great for these shots as well, I just found that my eyesight and perception was letting me down the farther the object ball was from the cue ball, and looking at a more discrete line has helped with my confidence on these shots.
Scott
Fantastic review, Scott! Thanks so much.
I find it so interesting that this appears to be a much more detailed system akin to the one I was taught a few months ago. However, what I was taught by the former road player was a very abbreviated lesson that concerned basically what to look when aiming at the OB and what part of the CB I was going to use to hit it with.
However, with that said, the fact that I've been looking "under there" in regards to the OB will hopefully allow me to pick up on the SEE system pretty quickly. I've been trying to fill in some of the blanks as I've gone along and I have had some success.
I'll try to order this next week when funds permit.
One last question: besides the PDF's that we can download/print, do we get unlimited access to the video's to review at our leisure? There's no time limit on them? I know there are a few instructors that make some videos that are only available for 3 days or so. Not real fond of that. Just wanted to make sure that this is unlimited reviews of the material.
Scott, how have your fellow players responded to your improvement lately? Can they tell the difference in your game?
Also, how well does the banking system work?
Is there a kicking system as well?
I find it so interesting that this appears to be a much more detailed system akin to the one I was taught a few months ago. However, what I was taught by the former road player was a very abbreviated lesson that concerned basically what to look when aiming at the OB and what part of the CB I was going to use to hit it with.
However, with that said, the fact that I've been looking "under there" in regards to the OB will hopefully allow me to pick up on the SEE system pretty quickly. I've been trying to fill in some of the blanks as I've gone along and I have had some success.
I'll try to order this next week when funds permit.
One last question: besides the PDF's that we can download/print, do we get unlimited access to the video's to review at our leisure? There's no time limit on them? I know there are a few instructors that make some videos that are only available for 3 days or so. Not real fond of that. Just wanted to make sure that this is unlimited reviews of the material.
Scott, how have your fellow players responded to your improvement lately? Can they tell the difference in your game?
Also, how well does the banking system work?
Is there a kicking system as well?
Fathom: I just wanted to second Scott's review in my own modest way. I've been using SEE for a few months and I think I'm getting good results. (Unfortunately I don't get in as much practice time as I would like, but I think I'm getting there with SEE.) I'm an APA 6 in an 8 ball division in northern Virginia and had something of an aha moment a few weeks back when I found myself down 4-2 in a division match against a few 6. Not wanting to lose to this opponent in particular (not that he's a bad guy; I just wanted to preserve my undefeated status against him), I took a deep breath, stepped back and really focused on the SEE step ins and shot lines. All of a sudden I started sinking shots all over the table, including a number of long range ones. Cutting to the chase, I won the last three games to pull out the match.
In particular, I would say SEE really helps me with thin cuts. In general, while practicing, I find I can sink shots with SEE without looking at the pocket (although I still look at the pocket in matches), if only to confirm to myself the system works. I haven't really started working with the banking system, yet, but it relies on the diamonds and extrapolations from there, and at least appears to be viable. There is no kicking system, but for me that is not issue, as I use other methods I've come across, such as the maps in the Advanced Pro Book and Phil Villapando's DVD, among other thngs.
As for the product, you get the videos with the PDF and they do not expire. I watched one of the embedded videos again last night to review the step in. All in all, for me it's been well worth the price.
Hope this helps.
In particular, I would say SEE really helps me with thin cuts. In general, while practicing, I find I can sink shots with SEE without looking at the pocket (although I still look at the pocket in matches), if only to confirm to myself the system works. I haven't really started working with the banking system, yet, but it relies on the diamonds and extrapolations from there, and at least appears to be viable. There is no kicking system, but for me that is not issue, as I use other methods I've come across, such as the maps in the Advanced Pro Book and Phil Villapando's DVD, among other thngs.
As for the product, you get the videos with the PDF and they do not expire. I watched one of the embedded videos again last night to review the step in. All in all, for me it's been well worth the price.
Hope this helps.
Thank you, ballston.
Looks like this is going to be the way to go for me. I feel like it should be a fairly natural system, given what I've working on the last few months.
Looks like this is going to be the way to go for me. I feel like it should be a fairly natural system, given what I've working on the last few months.
Can you get all the SEE materials to work on an iPad?
For customers
that have apple products
info:
Often I have had customers that had problems to donload the file with an Ipad
What defenitely works is to download the file with any windows based computer and then shifting the file to your apple computer using a freeware software called flashdrive ( have a look for this in your appstore)
Got lots of e- mails and tried to answer all of them from my I phone
Bur needed to write from my private e- mail account ( ekkibaer@web.de)
So all guys that wrote an e- mail to me please check your unknown e- mails folder please
Ekkes
that have apple products
info:
Often I have had customers that had problems to donload the file with an Ipad
What defenitely works is to download the file with any windows based computer and then shifting the file to your apple computer using a freeware software called flashdrive ( have a look for this in your appstore)
Got lots of e- mails and tried to answer all of them from my I phone
Bur needed to write from my private e- mail account ( ekkibaer@web.de)
So all guys that wrote an e- mail to me please check your unknown e- mails folder please
Ekkes
Yes, unlimited access to videos - they are on youtube, just private. I actually used a youtube downloader (free) and saved them all to my computer, then transferred them to my Droid just in case I wanted to review a portion of a video while playing. The PDF I just printed out and added to my collection, but you could transfer that as well to your smart phone.
I haven't played much competitively lately. I've never had a table at home, and just like I was with tennis or golf I can enjoy practicing for the love of the game and the sake of improving as much as playing. And when I'm working on stuff, I like to keep working on it until it's seamless. I'm almost there with SEE, learning new nuances every practice session that continues to up my consistency and confidence. Certain players I mentor or teach though have noticed my routine change and I showed one or two briefly what I was doing, they were pretty impressed. It does take some study and effort though to learn all of the possible tweaks and adjustments, but that's what also make it so strong once they are learned.
Banking system works great, just watch Ekkes demonstrate for 50 minutes where I think he only misses one bank, if that? I'm still very ingrained banking with Pro1, and continue to use that when playing, but I'm still working on the new sighting and alignment with SEE as well.
Nothing special on kicking. But if you want to improve your kicking, feel free to check out my articles I did a few years ago, they are on poolstudent.com, just scroll down on the right to the Instruction link and you'll find them. I cover System Sid and all of the 1 and 2 rail kicking systems I know along with details explanations and diagrams.
Scott
For $50 and change, I decided to take a look. I understand the concept he is trying to impart but I don't see much difference between fractional aiming or SAM at the end of the day. Just a different way of getting there albeit with quite a bit more complexity added. It still boils down to determining whether it is a 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 ball aim to start with. If you spend as much time practicing fractional or SAM, I believe you'll get the same and likely, better results. 90% + of the cut shots you're going to see are 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 ball shots with slight adjustments necessary regardless of what system you use. I don't understand the need to try to see lines, shadows and all this other stuff when there's 3 basic lines of contact you need to deal with.
A lot of the material references Dr Dave's website. That's there already, obviously. Banks? Purchase Freddy the Beard's books, I think what you get there will explain banking much better than the video (nothing written in the manual, you have to watch the video).
I don't have any deep regrets from making the purchase given the very modest investment. However, knowing what I now know, I wouldn't purchase it today. I don't mean to rain on the guy's parade, he's obviously put a lot of work into the material. I'm simply trying to provide my honest opinion of the material for those folks trying to make a decision to purchase or not. This is just my opinion, obviously, there are others who seem to like it.
A lot of the material references Dr Dave's website. That's there already, obviously. Banks? Purchase Freddy the Beard's books, I think what you get there will explain banking much better than the video (nothing written in the manual, you have to watch the video).
I don't have any deep regrets from making the purchase given the very modest investment. However, knowing what I now know, I wouldn't purchase it today. I don't mean to rain on the guy's parade, he's obviously put a lot of work into the material. I'm simply trying to provide my honest opinion of the material for those folks trying to make a decision to purchase or not. This is just my opinion, obviously, there are others who seem to like it.
Nothing wrong with being honest, Nob.
I've learned a lot in the past year from many, many different sources. I think the BIGGEST thing I've learned is that no one has it all figured out. And if I get something out of this and add it to the "toolbox" and get something from another source, add it to the "toolbox".........pretty soon......well, you've got a nice set of tools.
Definitely been many instances where I got one nugget of info that I really didn't already have from someone.....but that nugget ended up being golden.
Yeah, it's tough dropping $50 here and there and there and here for regular guys like me, but in the grand scheme, it's really pretty cheap when you might win that back in the course of one set or even one game.
It's up to all of us to put in the work and have things like this pay for itself.
I've learned a lot in the past year from many, many different sources. I think the BIGGEST thing I've learned is that no one has it all figured out. And if I get something out of this and add it to the "toolbox" and get something from another source, add it to the "toolbox".........pretty soon......well, you've got a nice set of tools.
Definitely been many instances where I got one nugget of info that I really didn't already have from someone.....but that nugget ended up being golden.
Yeah, it's tough dropping $50 here and there and there and here for regular guys like me, but in the grand scheme, it's really pretty cheap when you might win that back in the course of one set or even one game.
It's up to all of us to put in the work and have things like this pay for itself.
Nothing wrong with being honest, Nob.
I've learned a lot in the past year from many, many different sources. I think the BIGGEST thing I've learned is that no one has it all figured out. And if I get something out of this and add it to the "toolbox" and get something from another source, add it to the "toolbox".........pretty soon......well, you've got a nice set of tools.
Definitely been many instances where I got one nugget of info that I really didn't already have from someone.....but that nugget ended up being golden.
Yeah, it's tough dropping $50 here and there and there and here for regular guys like me, but in the grand scheme, it's really pretty cheap when you might win that back in the course of one set or even one game.
It's up to all of us to put in the work and have things like this pay for itself.
Justin:
More tools is almost always a good thing. I specifically use the qualifier "almost" because there are instances where it may not be the best thing, at a certain point in time. For example, not to bare dirty laundry, but your thread about being a slow player on the Main forum might qualify, especially with the insightful info shared by BobN.
He mentioned that you're in an "absorption" phase right now, and part of the slow play issue might be that you're in a transition right now, having to digest all this new information that you received from several rigorous training sessions, etc.
You might want to give yourself sometime to absorb all this stuff first, before taking on something as significant as changing your aiming system. This is not simply a tool that you can stick in your toolbag. It can change everything. Or it can f'up everything. The difference would be how stable/absorbed a foundation you have. If you have a stable foundation, you can safely pick out certain bricks and replace them. If you don't, well, the whole wall comes tumbling down. And, it would *add* to the slow play issue, not shorten or resolve it.
Just wanted to help you keep the big picture in mind -- please don't take this the wrong way.
Best,
-Sean