What's Good About A Good Stroke?

Slasher said:
Are you able to lock your wrist without tensing any other muscles in your arm?
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There can be a sort of "light and lively" spring-like tension in the wrist that imobilizes it while allowing a full and fluid motion in the rest of the arm. Watch any accomplished violinist to see what I am talking about. The control and finessing of the violin stroke is so far beyond what any cueist uses in play that it's not fair to compare them. However, someone who is very familiar with both motions (as I am) can see that they are very similar in essence. The wrist in never "locked" per se, but it is without a doubt capable of being either totally imobilized or set into motion at the discretion of the player.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The same principle applies to the hand's speed as to the cue's - it takes as much force to increase its speed while moving as it does to give it speed from a resting state.

The momentum of the arm doesn't assist the wrist snap unless you decelerate the arm to snap the wrist forward - which, of course, would work against adding to the arm's speed.
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Pat, I lurked on this forum a long time before joining, Dr. Dave's site as well. I know your MO and I'm not going to fall prey to it. You are either failing to understand some basics of kinesthesiology or are playing some sort of game again. I won't play, so I'm done with your thread here.

Bottom line is the wrist can be huge in the linear acceleration of objects of all sorts. Most agree, and can give concrete examples of this. Have fun with your games, I'm going down to hit some balls. I will be working on employing more wrist in my stroke.
 
ENGLISH! said:
CJ,

If I may be so bold as to interject. I believe slasher's grip & stroke is more similar to mine than yours & he may not be familiar with you mechanics of a firm tennis type grip & a 'forward' in front of you type stroke.

They are different strokes requiring different intricacies.
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If your bored you can watch my stroke here in this century break, I was trying to work out a slight L to R that crept in and after watching the vid I noticed a couple things like a slight lifting on some shots and gripping to tight. Bad habits have a way of sneaking up on you but the change of grip has all but fixed the issue.

And your right that CJ's approach is way different :)

https://vimeo.com/51970267
 
The correct wrist motion allows the cue to give you hand maximum feedback

Sloppy Pockets said:
There can be a sort of "light and lively" spring-like tension in the wrist that imobilizes it while allowing a full and fluid motion in the rest of the arm. Watch any accomplished violinist to see what I am talking about. The control and finessing of the violin stroke is so far beyond what any cueist uses in play that it's not fair to compare them. However, someone who is very familiar with both motions (as I am) can see that they are very similar in essence. The wrist in never "locked" per se, but it is without a doubt capable of being either totally imobilized or set into motion at the discretion of the player.
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You are exactly right .... the secret to pocket billiards is in the hands, not in the arms. It's a life time sentence to "Pool Purgatory" to ignore this.

The correct wrist motion allows the cue to transfer to your hand maximum feedback that creates the touch and feel for the Game. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
A Century run is a great feat by anyone's standards...Great Job!

Slasher said:
If your bored you can watch my stroke here in this century break, I was trying to work out a slight L to R that crept in and after watching the vid I noticed a couple things like a slight lifting on some shots and gripping to tight. Bad habits have a way of sneaking up on you but the change of grip has all but fixed the issue.

And your right that CJ's approach is way different :)

https://vimeo.com/51970267
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You play very well. Your stength (imho) is the way you face the ball more directly with your left foot on the line of the shot. You may even stay down on the ball too well, you'll notice with the champions that they will allow their head to raise slightly on the follow through.

When you try to stay down and keep your head perfectly still, even though I know it's a good thought, it can also lead to a slight "hitch" in your follow through. A grip change may fix that temporarily, but if it happens again you may want to allow your body/head to come up slightly on the follow through. Your hand/wrist motion is perfect with a precise and accurate follow through and delivery which enables the right amount of acceleration.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
You play very well. Your stength (imho) is the way you face the ball more directly with your left foot on the line of the shot. You may even stay down on the ball too well, you'll notice with the champions that they will allow their head to raise slightly on the follow through.

When you try to stay down and keep your head perfectly still, even though I know it's a good thought, it can also lead to a slight "hitch" in your follow through. A grip change may fix that temporarily, but if it happens again you may want to allow your body/head to come up slightly on the follow through. Your hand/wrist motion is perfect with a precise and accurate follow through and delivery which enables the right amount of acceleration.
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Thanks CJ, I suppose I modeled after the great Ray Reardon whom was six times world champ and my fave, he had this slight lift at the end, also he had his arm slightly tucked in which I used to do but changed during my rebuild period lol
 
I believe Patrick is correct about the wrist supplying very little additional power to the cue. Comparing the effect of the wrist in pool to that of golf or tennis doesn't fly. It is a matter of the lever arm. In a golf swing, that lever arm is from the grip of the hand to the end of the club. In tennis, it would be from the grip to the point where the ball hits the racket. In pool, depending upon your hand size and how you grip the cue, it would be a matter of 3" to 6" max, I'd think most closer to 3" to 4".

It is a similar concept to centrifugal force. If you have two balls on a string, one string 6" long, one string 3' long, and twirl them at equal RPM. The ball on the longer string is moving at a much higher speed than the one on the shorter string. Simple math, Pi x D. 6" string is 3.14 x 1. 3' string is 3.14 x 6. So you have more than an 18 x difference. That may provide an idea of the difference in speed generated in the clubhead/cue, by the wrist "snapping". If you don't like that comparison, take a stick and hold it in your hand with 6" extending out from the hand. Now hit your forearm by snapping the wrist. Now try the same thing with 3' of the stick extending from your hand. Big difference.
 
I did not employ any extra wrist or snap here. https://vimeo.com/51974494
Only a little more flex required on the end of the backswing, the key is generating the cue speed with the relaxed arm but keeping a tight enough grip so as not to chuck the cue onto the next table and still get an acurate strike on the CB :grin:
I practiced this shot enough to bring me to the conclusion that wrist action did not contribute to power, however a relaxed grip and arm did.
 
Slasher said:
If your bored you can watch my stroke here in this century break, I was trying to work out a slight L to R that crept in and after watching the vid I noticed a couple things like a slight lifting on some shots...
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The biggest problem I can see with your stroke is that it's not mine. Very nice!

It must be great to own such a wonderful table and to have the skills to match. Thanks for the link, I only wish there was any kind of snooker table in my area, I'd love to try my hand at the game.
 
Slasher said:
I did not employ any extra wrist or snap here. https://vimeo.com/51974494
Only a little more flex required on the end of the backswing, the key is generating the cue speed with the relaxed arm but keeping a tight enough grip so as not to chuck the cue onto the next table and still get an acurate strike on the CB :grin:
I practiced this shot enough to bring me to the conclusion that wrist action did not contribute to power, however a relaxed grip and arm did.
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You look like your grip tightens as your go through the ball, is this not what you're feeling?
 
What if you cock your wrist to begin with?

nobcitypool said:
I believe Patrick is correct about the wrist supplying very little additional power to the cue. Comparing the effect of the wrist in pool to that of golf or tennis doesn't fly. It is a matter of the lever arm. In a golf swing, that lever arm is from the grip of the hand to the end of the club. In tennis, it would be from the grip to the point where the ball hits the racket. In pool, depending upon your hand size and how you grip the cue, it would be a matter of 3" to 6" max, I'd think most closer to 3" to 4".

It is a similar concept to centrifugal force. If you have two balls on a string, one string 6" long, one string 3' long, and twirl them at equal RPM. The ball on the longer string is moving at a much higher speed than the one on the shorter string. Simple math, Pi x D. 6" string is 3.14 x 1. 3' string is 3.14 x 6. So you have more than an 18 x difference. That may provide an idea of the difference in speed generated in the clubhead/cue, by the wrist "snapping". If you don't like that comparison, take a stick and hold it in your hand with 6" extending out from the hand. Now hit your forearm by snapping the wrist. Now try the same thing with 3' of the stick extending from your hand. Big difference.
Click to expand...

What if you cock your wrist to begin with, does this change the example you used with the pool stroke?

Do you believe the wrists cock and uncock during the golf swing? When does this occur (if it occurs) in the swing?
 
Slasher said:
I would say it does tighten on this shot, it's hard not to when your trying to generate a lot of cue speed.
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I've tried to cope with that tendency by developing a grip that doesn't change when it tightens - essentially gripping the cue only at two "pivot" points on the left and right side (but letting the fingers wrap underneath for a sense of security).

pj
chgo
 
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