Us and Them
- Thread starter duckie
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Um, ok, then what does "advanced" mean to you?
Well actually, the minerals to make gems can be found anywhere. Gems come from careful and experience working of the stone. In other words gems of wisdom come from experience and the more experience then generally the more valuable the wisdom.
Let me see if I can give you another example.
One day at the Cue Club in Las Vegas I was taking a lesson from Joe Salazar. More like I was taking a beating and he was telling what he was doing while beating me and telling me how to play the shots. Well there was a shot where Joe told me to play safe one way and Toby Flaherty was standing there watching and he pipes up and says play it this other way and it's a much stronger move. Now both ways were not what would have been my first choice. But it's fair to say that both of these guys have forgotten more about one pocket than I will ever know. It might have taken me years or maybe never to teach myself to play the way Joe was teaching me and I can confidently say that I would probably have NEVER thought of Toby's move.
Now why does this matter? Well I love to play one pocket and I will gamble playing one pocket. And I have played a lot of one pocket with guys my speed. I have also stood around the table discussing one pocket moves with my friends who are all about my speed or maybe a ball or two better. None of them are anywhere close to Toby's speed or Scott Frost's speed. In other words as much as they play and as good as they are they still get flat robbed if they try to play someone like Scott. And I firmly believe that it comes down in part because they simply don't know the amount of moves and how to execute them that the pros have.
If you ever get the chance to watch John Schmidt do an exhibition he doesn't do trick shots. What he will do is show you about 10-15 shots that will make you go huh??? - I didn't know the balls would do that -
Where does this come from? Well John has already done everything you have done on the table a hundred times over and when he got bored with that he started doing crazy things and figuring out shots that seem impossible. They aren't impossible of course but it's similar to Efren's statement that he sometimes watches amateurs play and when they make a crazy fluke shot Efren would practice it until he could do it on purpose.
That's the type of experience I am talking about Greg. Not whether you have put in 100 hours learning to draw your ball vs. Johnny Archer's 200. Although someday maybe you will find out that when you put 200 hours in you will know exponentially more than you did at 100, not just twice the amount.
Well there are pros and there are PROS. Most of us know the difference. Unfortunately in the pool world anyone can call themselves a professional pool player.
But I think for the purpose of the thread we are talking about pros with the caliber of Brandon Shuff, Chris Bartrum and above. There are not many amateurs on the earth that can "pound" these guys all day long.
I haven't kept up with CJ's conversations. From what I have seen though his posting of google searches and images have simply been his responses. Frankly I'd have been gone a long time ago if I had had to put up with some of the things CJ has dealt with.
CJ did go on a posting binge like a lot of folks do who find the forum for the first time. He seems to have a lot to share from his experiences as a road player, as a professional player, as a tour organizer, a tournament promoter and a poolroom/nightclub owner. Who wouldn't want that guy around to pick his brain???
I have owned a pool room. We had 3 employees. CJ had hundreds. We had ten tables he had 50 I think. He has played on the Mosconi Cup, played and beaten every professional player of his day and was a serious road player. If this guy hasn't earned a place on the podium where he can speak unmolested then I don't know who can?
Accomplishments have to account for something don't they? If so then what are they worth?
They account for the bulls eye strapped to CJ's back...
Every MENSA paying AZer has to measure their di... errrr their grey matter against the champ to prove they are valid.....
Every time I see this play out I realize they are actually "winning" and I am pretty sure Charlie Sheen would agree....
Tap, tap, tap.
It's actually quite discouraging to see how the forum works. It's certainly predictable.
TheThaiger
Banned
That's a good point, and often not just limited to their play, either. Some players also have something that transcends their playing ability. I've even known pretty limited players have this - a friend of mine, who could 'point n poke' very well, but couldn't really command the CB, held a table for 12 hours straight once, just through presence and will to win. Every time he looked like losing, his opponent would contrive to lose. I don't mean all pros have this or everyone is susceptible to it, but some players have an aura of being unbeatable about them.
It seems us bangers take an eternity trying to figure out what it would take to make us into a pro, without ever really knowing what "it" is in the first place.
I would suggest "it" is innate, and pointless to look for. The difference between pros and the rest of us is vast, on all levels. You can work hard to close the gap in certain specific areas, but nobody over the age of about 16 who isn't running rack after rack will ever be a pro, and it's an exercise is futility to try.
TheThaiger
Banned
Why don't you speak out about it, then? That would be cool. Very cool.
I can try to explain it from my perspective because I have gambled a lot with way better players than myself and some of them pros.
First is intimidation. When you know for sure that a miss is almost always going to be a loss of game it's puts a lot of pressure on you.
Second is traps, pro class players lay down safeties that are truly deadly. They know the difference between a half an inch this way that cuts off all but one tough path to the cue ball.
Third is execution, not only do they make shots consistently that the amateur can't they also leave shots that amateurs don't know better not to attempt.
Lastly is confidence, which goes along with intimidation. When a pro is playing someone well below their speed then they feel absolutely no pressure at all and can freewheel with extreme confidence. That loosens up their stroke and makes them able to make even more ridiculous outs. That type of confidence is enough to make lesser players afraid to even come to the table when they finally do get a shot.
All in my opinion of course.
No, you really don't want to hear what I would have to say, you just want to see me say it. I get that, it makes for forum entertainment.
Sadly, that's the problem. The "forum entertainment" seeps into the threads where people actually try to learn stuff, or at least examine other possibilities. Then the forum experts make it a point to denounce not only why it won't work, but how very silly it would be to even entertain thinking about it.
I shouldn't be surprised, after spending this much time here. But occasionally stuff gets beaten around so much that it aggravates me, as it derails the possibilities that a forum like this could provide.
In short, I just wish people would get along a little better. Pipe dream that it is, it's all mine.
Indeed! There are a lot of people here who "enjoy" it more when the discussions become arguments. They don't seem to understand that it's that kind of stuff that drives some of the best away.
TheThaiger
Banned
No. I want you to show some conviction.
Banks
Banned
That's a double-edged sword, though. Just as being comfortable can boost confidence and shot-making, it can also make one over-confident and sloppy.
Really , would you go pro if you could?
I am satisfied with working and being with my family. I don't play pro speed most of the time..... But sometimes I do . Practice your problem areas and the great information that's out there. Hell I don't feel beat when I get matched up with a pro player. If they aren't breaking great and I get a roll or two I might put their a$$ out the tournament .
I don't know about everyone else but I'm cool with that
I am satisfied with working and being with my family. I don't play pro speed most of the time..... But sometimes I do . Practice your problem areas and the great information that's out there. Hell I don't feel beat when I get matched up with a pro player. If they aren't breaking great and I get a roll or two I might put their a$$ out the tournament .
I don't know about everyone else but I'm cool with that
Spot on
I have followed this thread and i must say JB you are spot on with everything you've said.
It's nice to see someone who really understands the world class players.
I'm a golfer and I've played with and watched the top touring pro's and believe me those guys are so good it's hard to believe.
It's the same with pool.
Many who play casually on a bartable just can hardly understand how much the pro's know and how good they play.
That includes CJ and the rest.
I have followed this thread and i must say JB you are spot on with everything you've said.
It's nice to see someone who really understands the world class players.
I'm a golfer and I've played with and watched the top touring pro's and believe me those guys are so good it's hard to believe.
It's the same with pool.
Many who play casually on a bartable just can hardly understand how much the pro's know and how good they play.
That includes CJ and the rest.
You are growing on me
It's in my nature to try and be diplomatic, to try and see both sides, and to try and get along with folks. As such, I very seldom will fire away at folks here online.
As for conviction, I suppose I could spin that into showing frustration with many of the usual suspects here. I truly respect and appreciate their participation here, and the help they have provided me. So it bothers me to see so much time and energy wasted on needless internet fights.
If you're waiting for me to shake my fist and scream "I'm not gonna take it any more", I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you. Again.
Not if the match up is for money and significant in my experience.
A road player once told me that it's like robbing people without a gun. Basically when you walk in the room you already know that you can beat everyone in the room and what you have to offer to make sure that they step to the table thinking that they have a chance.
How do like it when you're five games ahead in a race to 11 and you lose 11:5? I once put a five pack on Ronnnie Wiseman and then didn't see a makeable shot until the score was 8:5 in his favor. I drove a 3ft shot straight into the rubber a diamond away from the pocket.
Now many years later I know why. I gambled with Ronnie and it was a big deal for me and it was nothing to him. Laying down a five pack out of the gate made my adrenaline surge. This was at the Cue Club in Vegas as well with the attendant railbirds and pool detectives so I was putting on a show. When I finally had a dry break Ronnie put a clinic on me by managing the table, he didn't fire a package back at me. He just made me kick at everything or take low percentage off angle banks or try to play safe only seeing an edge of the ball. I was so high after the five pack I was almost shaking. Ronnie on the hand was unfazed.
He didn't care because he knew even if I ran the set he could just play again and I was unlikely to sustain that level. But for me just playing him brought a wash of emotion and a surge of chemicals that affected how I play. And this all comes about because of lack of experience AND lack of the skill set to go with that experience.
In other words what for me was extraordinary, running a five pack, was for him ordinary and no big deal. So his demeanor stays cool and he stays confident knowing that this is a good thing that I come out the gate strong.
But you're right - even top players can and do sometimes get careless when they take weaker opponents for granted. I really wasn't talking about them though but more about just championship caliber players in general and the gulf between them and even decent amateurs.
(the part in quotes was a small part of someone's rant earlier in thread)
"There's no way to prove this but if there were, I'd be willing to bet substantial money that were you to take two relative beginners with similar physical and mental capabilities, let one study under Scott Lee, RandyG and Jerry Brieseth for a year while letting the other study under CJ, Earl and Efrem for a year, the former would be a much better player after that time."
My response:
You may be correct about relative beginners. However, if someone was very close to pro level I can guarantee you that CJ would be the one to go to if they wanted to have a shot at becoming a top pro. I watched some instructional tapes of his many years ago and just one piece of his instruction has probably made me thousands of dollars. There is one extremely difficult shot that comes up often that I make consistently because of his description on how to shoot it. I watched the instruction of one of the 3 instructors you mentioned and it was of zero value to me but I am sure a relative beginner would find it worth everything they paid because of the improvement that resulted. However, CJ is in a different class when it comes to taking a very strong player to the next level.
"There's no way to prove this but if there were, I'd be willing to bet substantial money that were you to take two relative beginners with similar physical and mental capabilities, let one study under Scott Lee, RandyG and Jerry Brieseth for a year while letting the other study under CJ, Earl and Efrem for a year, the former would be a much better player after that time."
My response:
You may be correct about relative beginners. However, if someone was very close to pro level I can guarantee you that CJ would be the one to go to if they wanted to have a shot at becoming a top pro. I watched some instructional tapes of his many years ago and just one piece of his instruction has probably made me thousands of dollars. There is one extremely difficult shot that comes up often that I make consistently because of his description on how to shoot it. I watched the instruction of one of the 3 instructors you mentioned and it was of zero value to me but I am sure a relative beginner would find it worth everything they paid because of the improvement that resulted. However, CJ is in a different class when it comes to taking a very strong player to the next level.
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