Us and Them

And on your second point, I do now probably underestimate the physical traits that are needed for professional play but that's a whole nother' subject. The whole natural ability thing comes up and I've switched camps on that over the course of the past couple of years. I now believe that the idea that "I just don't have the natural ability to play this game" was the biggest lie I ever told myself. It was an excuse I bought into for many years and I think it's a very easy excuse to peg your failures on.

I'm hearing ya, and the excuse factor in pool for not doing or being this or that is something we all have in different degrees. One of the sad things is when a player does something wrong and makes up a ''STORY'' to create reasoning for the mishap, but its NOT Reality and the problem perpetuates and festers. Pool compared to life is equal. You get what you give, and some of us that don't have that so called natural ability, just have to work a little harder to accomplish what we feel is important. A good example of this would be Doug Flutie the football player. He was able to get the most out of his talents through hard work and not giving up, but yes he had a platform to keep at it, as pool players on the Pro side don't really have.
Two great examples of players that were taught and worked hard and accomplished allot in our game but never had the natural ablility of Earl the Pearl....Mark Wilson and Jeff Carter.
 
Mark...Nice post! Many years ago Jerry described the 'phases' of learning and teaching to me, in kind of a profound way that I have always remembered. FTR, Jerry trained some of the best players in the country. He likened teaching poolplayers to a clockface. From 12-3 you have the rank beginners...teaching them is ALL about fundamentals. From 3-6 you have the 'intermediate' players (probably the APA SL5-9's)...teaching them is still about fundamentals, but you add in playing strategies, etc. From 6-9 you have the "best" local guys (maybe you could call them shortstops, but they will typically run over anybody in their area, and occasionally beat a pro or two)...teaching them still touches on fundamentals, but there is much more indepth playing knowledge conveyed. Finally you have the professional players from 9-12. They know all the shots, have tons of playing experience, so the focus goes right back to ALL fundamentals. :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I also think you are missing the point by many, I think Scott Lee described it well. I would bet the vast majority of people who post here and lurk fall into the S/L 2 - 5. They and even better players probably shouldn't be thinking about wrist cock to improve their power. They should be working on building a fundamental stroke from which they can build upon to improve their game. I'd make an argument that attempting to add wrist cock to their already flawed stroke would likely cause far more harm than good. What, an APA 3 should be adding wrist cock to their stroke in order to hit a power draw? LOL
.
 
Wanted to say, nice post John.

On another subject:

I haven't run 6 racks in a few years, and I never ran 100 in straight pool (to be fair to myself, I never played much straight pool), yet the people who come to me for lessons usually express their satisfaction and gratitude. Are they wrong? Should they ignore my lessons or my posts?

I gave a young fella a "basics" lesson in 1965. In now way was a real instructor at that time. Yet somehow he became a rather good player and gave me credit....you don't have to know EVERYTHING (no one does), to teach SOME THINGS.

I get what you're saying, and I didn't mean to imply nobody should teach until they've run X racks or XXX balls. In fact, I probably shouldn't have tried to put a number on it. I'd still listen to a guy who ran 'only' 87 balls or 'only' puts up a 5 pack twice a year.

When I said "I would probably listen to what they have to say" I meant the word "I" in a literal way... me specifically. If you ran a 6 pack before, I'd personally listen to you.

I'm that APA7 john's talking about, and I do try to teach people, but I think the difference between me and duckie (if I'm reading it right)... is I'm very aware of the gap between me and a professional. I would not hold it against anyone if they listen to a pro's advice before listening to mine.
 
There's no way to prove this but if there were, I'd be willing to bet substantial money that were you to take two relative beginners with similar physical and mental capabilities, let one study under Scott Lee, RandyG and Jerry Brieseth for a year while letting the other study under CJ, Earl and Efrem for a year, the former would be a much better player after that time.

Now if you were to use Earl, CJ and Efren I think you could bet as high as the sky..... I think we are back to the original issue... Lots of us have no idea how huge the gap is between them and us....

Most great players studied under other great players... They usually traveled on the road together for extended periods and shared the knowledge in depth over a long period... Not an hour at a time in lesson format.....

I am not saying that in some instances lessons are not useful from the instructors mentioned.... Slumps and Plateaus come immediately to mind for the general public.... For the professionals they usually seek out knowledge from their peers and have one of their peer group watch what they are doing and offer insights......
 
I have to agree with this cause the same thing is happening to me and some of my friends. Since we all began playing pool, a few friends started practising "pro moves" from youtube and some other instructional vids, while the rest of us pretty much learned by ourselves. After several years, they have the upper hand in technical terms, but lack some tricks we learned from personal experience. When we play, we're mostly evenly matched, but they often boast about their skills ans "superiority", even when they lose. Maybe this is a little off-subject, but it's another great example of snobbery among pool players.
 
I have to agree with this cause the same thing is happening to me and some of my friends. Since we all began playing pool, a few friends started practising "pro moves" from youtube and some other instructional vids, while the rest of us pretty much learned by ourselves. After several years, they have the upper hand in technical terms, but lack some tricks we learned from personal experience. When we play, we're mostly evenly matched, but they often boast about their skills ans "superiority", even when they lose. Maybe this is a little off-subject, but it's another great example of snobbery among pool players.

How many players that offer up or, ''tell'' you how good they are....are Really NOT very good. To me it has to be somewhere in the 99%+ range.
Now in a gambling woofing, lets match up situation, thats completely different.
 
JB, in general, I respectfully disagree. I've had the privilege of extensively playing against pro racquetball players and golfers and have played against Larry Bird in basketball and baseball as well as spent a day in what was primarily a playing lesson with John Brumback. I maintain the vast majority of professional athletes are Savants, they can't necessarily explain the fundamentals of what they do well at all; they just do. They do it at a level most of us can never comprehend, I think the gap you described is even greater than enormous. By no means though does that mean they are good instructors. The day I spent with John Brumback was fantastic. He is simply a great person with pool skills that are beyond my comprehension. I learned a lot. However, and this is no knock on John by any means, he is not the qualified professional instructor Scott Lee is. Were I to somehow reach a level (HIGHLY unlikely) where I wanted to play competitively in bank pool tournaments, there's no doubt I would go to John with specific needs only he could help with. For building my game to even comprehend getting to that level though, Scott Lee will get the calls.

I did exclude professional coaches. Obviously people who have made a career out of studying the game and the mechanics are going to be as knowledgeable as the pros. The only thing that they might lack is the actual experience of facing down a field of world beaters month after month to earn their living.
I also think you are missing the point by many, I think Scott Lee described it well. I would bet the vast majority of people who post here and lurk fall into the S/L 2 - 5. They and even better players probably shouldn't be thinking about wrist cock to improve their power. They should be working on building a fundamental stroke from which they can build upon to improve their game. I'd make an argument that attempting to add wrist cock to their already flawed stroke would likely cause far more harm than good. What, an APA 3 should be adding wrist cock to their stroke in order to hit a power draw? LOL

It's hard to say what the skill demographic is for AZB's readers. I'd say that most are probably in the SL4/5 range possibly. But that said I think that APA7s should be working on their fundamentals as well. I am probably in the top 10% of AZB as a player (pros excluded) and I need a lot of work.
I think Golf is the closest professional sport to pool. When you look at the top 50 rated teaching professionals, only a couple ever had any notable success on the PGA Tour. I don't recall seeing Butch Harmon or Hank Haney ever playing on TV. Funny how arguably, the best golfer to ever play the game (Tiger Woods), turns to someone who has never played anywhere close to his level for instruction. Top pool professionals would likely benefit from having a personal coach who would work with them to improve their basic fundamentals. Why doesn't that happen? Perhaps it is because the 132nd ranked player on the PGA Tour makes 4 or 5 times more money than the number 1 rated male professional pool player. I'd bet Butch Harmon, the top rated PGA Instructor, makes substantially more money than the vast majority of professional pool players. There are many more players here who could likely compete at the professional level were it to make any sense at all financially to do so.

Again I want to be clear that I excluded professional instructors. I have nothing against professional instructors as my record on AZB clearly indicates. In fact I have had a lot to say about some folks who have knocked the professional instructors. Not all of it nice.

I do agree that professional players, should they choose to do so, could make great contributions to this site. Most that come on here though seem to do so with the primary intent of selling their DVD's, books, etc.. IMHO, I think they should leave the fundamentals and basic instruction to the Professional Instructors. I remember asking John B about what aiming system he utilizes. He looked at me like I was from another planet. "You just aim and put a little English on the CB to avoid skid and help throw that OB into the pocket." I asked him if he employed the diamond system or how he calculated the cut for a bank. John said "Mark, everyone knows the angles." To be fair, if there were a very difficult shot coming up and I asked John what he was thinking and planning on doing to make the shot and get position, he could explain it to me exactly. And then do it perfectly! I think those sorts of things are where the professionals could contribute. I'd like to hear about their tournament experiences. It would be kewl to have them describe their thought process on a run out, when they are thinking two way shots and how they plan to execute them, their thoughts on safety play along with some interesting safeties they've played and how they mentally prepare for an important match. This would all be valuable and of much greater interest than pasting a bunch of irrelevant images from Google searches. The guys that are the real deal don't need that kind of crap to prove their greatness.

I have also taken many lessons from players like Buddy Hall, Jose Parica and the list goes on. For me the I found that I was best served to go in with a completely open mind and 100% push out everything I had learned from any other source at that moment. This allowed me to stop making mental comparisons with the information I was getting to the information I already had from other places, like books, forums, etc... the result is that you are then open to pick up the wisdom that this person is showing you from their perspective.

There's no way to prove this but if there were, I'd be willing to bet substantial money that were you to take two relative beginners with similar physical and mental capabilities, let one study under Scott Lee, RandyG and Jerry Brieseth for a year while letting the other study under CJ, Earl and Efrem for a year, the former would be a much better player after that time.

Well there is a way to prove it but I'd save your money. Champions build champions. I respect Scott and the other professional instructors a TON but it would be no contest. Assuming that the both students were equally smart and equally willing to learn the one who trained under the pros for a year would wipe the floor with the one who trained with the pro instructors. That's my opinion of course but I think that historically most times a person has had a chance to be mentored by a champion they also became a champion. On the other hand I will grant you that there are coaches who turn out champions consistently in other sports.

Just to be clear, there's nothing I post here that I wouldn't say to that person face to face. I respect CJ's accomplishment's as a player but don't appreciate the crap he is throwing around to satisfy his ego and shill his upcoming DVD release. If CJ will respect other people's intelligence by not throwing around obvious bullshit, I believe the vast majority of people will show him equal or greater respect in return. And even though I thought his DVD was mediocre at best, if I read more about Lee Brett's tournament wins than about him "boning chicks" and boxing matches at the tournaments, I'll respect him a lot more as well. JB, respect is EARNED, not simply given due to position.

Nothing I said had anything to do with any particular person. I happen to speak to several pros several times a year, many who used to post on AZB, and they always laugh about it and say that posting here upsets them because they have to deal with people who "know more than them about how to play pool". Now my opinion is that just by virtue of accomplishments a person earns a certain respect.

They can lose that respect of course like Tiger did with actions and Lance did with his actions or by talking down to people on forums but at least we shouldn't go out of our way to bait or provoke them. And frankly this is what I have seen from time to time. The problem as I see it is that nothing stops an SL2 from inflating themselves on a forum to the point that they feel it's perfectly ok to tell a world champion how to play.

When that happens it's obvious to the world champion that the SL2 is ignorant but the damage is done and the world champion decides it's not worth his time to hang out here. Now if the price to pay for having a world champion here to talk to is that we have to endure the occasional advertisement from them about a product they are selling then fine. We should be smart enough to judge that ourselves and if the product doesn't match the hype then that will be found out soon enough.

My point remains though that accomplished players have earned a place of respect and should be treated that way until they decide to give away the respect that their shooting arm earned them.
 
JB, I couldn't agree more. And you may note (or perhaps not) that my debates with CJ were not directly related to pool but more to physics, engineering and mechanics where frankly, his expertise doesn't compare to my own. If he were to attempt to engage me in purely pool related subjects, I wouldn't wish to participate. I also could care less whether or not he is here to sell his DVD. I'll probably buy one, what, it's $50 or $60? Who cares, if I pick up one single thing it will have been worth that.

I think CJ was being very well accepted here until he started with the bullshit, the senseless Google search/pastes and the condescending attitude. Check it out, he's been posting here for a couple of months. Do your research and then see where the problems began. Then consider the root cause.
 
I did exclude professional coaches. Obviously people who have made a career out of studying the game and the mechanics are going to be as knowledgeable as the pros. The only thing that they might lack is the actual experience of facing down a field of world beaters month after month to earn their living.


It's hard to say what the skill demographic is for AZB's readers. I'd say that most are probably in the SL4/5 range possibly. But that said I think that APA7s should be working on their fundamentals as well. I am probably in the top 10% of AZB as a player (pros excluded) and I need a lot of work.


Again I want to be clear that I excluded professional instructors. I have nothing against professional instructors as my record on AZB clearly indicates. In fact I have had a lot to say about some folks who have knocked the professional instructors. Not all of it nice.



I have also taken many lessons from players like Buddy Hall, Jose Parica and the list goes on. For me the I found that I was best served to go in with a completely open mind and 100% push out everything I had learned from any other source at that moment. This allowed me to stop making mental comparisons with the information I was getting to the information I already had from other places, like books, forums, etc... the result is that you are then open to pick up the wisdom that this person is showing you from their perspective.



Well there is a way to prove it but I'd save your money. Champions build champions. I respect Scott and the other professional instructors a TON but it would be no contest. Assuming that the both students were equally smart and equally willing to learn the one who trained under the pros for a year would wipe the floor with the one who trained with the pro instructors. That's my opinion of course but I think that historically most times a person has had a chance to be mentored by a champion they also became a champion. On the other hand I will grant you that there are coaches who turn out champions consistently in other sports.



Nothing I said had anything to do with any particular person. I happen to speak to several pros several times a year, many who used to post on AZB, and they always laugh about it and say that posting here upsets them because they have to deal with people who "know more than them about how to play pool". Now my opinion is that just by virtue of accomplishments a person earns a certain respect.

They can lose that respect of course like Tiger did with actions and Lance did with his actions or by talking down to people on forums but at least we shouldn't go out of our way to bait or provoke them. And frankly this is what I have seen from time to time. The problem as I see it is that nothing stops an SL2 from inflating themselves on a forum to the point that they feel it's perfectly ok to tell a world champion how to play.

When that happens it's obvious to the world champion that the SL2 is ignorant but the damage is done and the world champion decides it's not worth his time to hang out here. Now if the price to pay for having a world champion here to talk to is that we have to endure the occasional advertisement from them about a product they are selling then fine. We should be smart enough to judge that ourselves and if the product doesn't match the hype then that will be found out soon enough.

My point remains though that accomplished players have earned a place of respect and should be treated that way until they decide to give away the respect that their shooting arm earned them.

I believe John is spot on here. I have also had a few pro- players tell me the same thing.
 
No, not the Pink Floyd song, but there is a notion that is starting to appear on hear lately. This notion is not good for the long term growth of pool.

The notion is one of that only someone that is a "pro" is capable of playing top level pool and as such are the only ones that know how its done or can understand the ins and outs of the game.

For whatever reasons, there is this idea that what a "non" pro experiences at the table and during a tourney is less of value than that of a pro or pro event. That the effort the "non" pro puts into improving is not the same value as that of a pro's effort.

In other words, there is a air of snobbery occurring on here. Separate class of players as such, us and them.

Not good.


You (anyone) just don't know what you don't know.

td
 
JB, in general, I respectfully disagree. I've had the privilege of extensively playing against pro racquetball players and golfers and have played against Larry Bird in basketball and baseball as well as spent a day in what was primarily a playing lesson with John Brumback. I maintain the vast majority of professional athletes are Savants, they can't necessarily explain the fundamentals of what they do well at all; they just do. They do it at a level most of us can never comprehend, I think the gap you described is even greater than enormous. By no means though does that mean they are good instructors. The day I spent with John Brumback was fantastic. He is simply a great person with pool skills that are beyond my comprehension. I learned a lot. However, and this is no knock on John by any means, he is not the qualified professional instructor Scott Lee is. Were I to somehow reach a level (HIGHLY unlikely) where I wanted to play competitively in bank pool tournaments, there's no doubt I would go to John with specific needs only he could help with. For building my game to even comprehend getting to that level though, Scott Lee will get the calls.

I also think you are missing the point by many, I think Scott Lee described it well. I would bet the vast majority of people who post here and lurk fall into the S/L 2 - 5. They and even better players probably shouldn't be thinking about wrist cock to improve their power. They should be working on building a fundamental stroke from which they can build upon to improve their game. I'd make an argument that attempting to add wrist cock to their already flawed stroke would likely cause far more harm than good. What, an APA 3 should be adding wrist cock to their stroke in order to hit a power draw? LOL

I think Golf is the closest professional sport to pool. When you look at the top 50 rated teaching professionals, only a couple ever had any notable success on the PGA Tour. I don't recall seeing Butch Harmon or Hank Haney ever playing on TV. Funny how arguably, the best golfer to ever play the game (Tiger Woods), turns to someone who has never played anywhere close to his level for instruction. Top pool professionals would likely benefit from having a personal coach who would work with them to improve their basic fundamentals. Why doesn't that happen? Perhaps it is because the 132nd ranked player on the PGA Tour makes 4 or 5 times more money than the number 1 rated male professional pool player. I'd bet Butch Harmon, the top rated PGA Instructor, makes substantially more money than the vast majority of professional pool players. There are many more players here who could likely compete at the professional level were it to make any sense at all financially to do so.

I do agree that professional players, should they choose to do so, could make great contributions to this site. Most that come on here though seem to do so with the primary intent of selling their DVD's, books, etc.. IMHO, I think they should leave the fundamentals and basic instruction to the Professional Instructors. I remember asking John B about what aiming system he utilizes. He looked at me like I was from another planet. "You just aim and put a little English on the CB to avoid skid and help throw that OB into the pocket." I asked him if he employed the diamond system or how he calculated the cut for a bank. John said "Mark, everyone knows the angles." To be fair, if there were a very difficult shot coming up and I asked John what he was thinking and planning on doing to make the shot and get position, he could explain it to me exactly. And then do it perfectly! I think those sorts of things are where the professionals could contribute. I'd like to hear about their tournament experiences. It would be kewl to have them describe their thought process on a run out, when they are thinking two way shots and how they plan to execute them, their thoughts on safety play along with some interesting safeties they've played and how they mentally prepare for an important match. This would all be valuable and of much greater interest than pasting a bunch of irrelevant images from Google searches. The guys that are the real deal don't need that kind of crap to prove their greatness.

There's no way to prove this but if there were, I'd be willing to bet substantial money that were you to take two relative beginners with similar physical and mental capabilities, let one study under Scott Lee, RandyG and Jerry Brieseth for a year while letting the other study under CJ, Earl and Efrem for a year, the former would be a much better player after that time.

Just to be clear, there's nothing I post here that I wouldn't say to that person face to face. I respect CJ's accomplishment's as a player but don't appreciate the crap he is throwing around to satisfy his ego and shill his upcoming DVD release. If CJ will respect other people's intelligence by not throwing around obvious bullshit, I believe the vast majority of people will show him equal or greater respect in return. And even though I thought his DVD was mediocre at best, if I read more about Lee Brett's tournament wins than about him "boning chicks" and boxing matches at the tournaments, I'll respect him a lot more as well. JB, respect is EARNED, not simply given due to position.

We are on a pool forum, who's opinion would be wanted more about pool yours or CJ's?
 
Just because some ones use a different method, ie technique, to do something does not make it advanced, just their way of doing things.

I finished in the cash again last night. The effort, the time at practice, the desire to win and do my best and the ups and downs during a tourney is just as equal to that of a pro. To imply that only pro level experience is the only experience that matters is a slap in the face to the non pros.

The only difference between you and a pro is consistency in using whatever works for you. They just miss less that's all.

I better be careful, keep finishing in the cash is gonna make me a pro, or is being considered a pro gonna be based on a minimum amount of winnings?

Funny thing, I never consider a person skill level when they write about something, only if what they write makes sense to me. I do not care about who says what, just if what they say makes sense. Gems of wisdom come from anywhere.
 
Last edited:
Just because some ones use a different method, ie technique, to do something does not make it advanced, just their way of doing things.
To imply that only pro level experience is the only experience that matters is a slap in the face to the non pros.

Ok, who implied that only pro level experience is the only experience that matters? I don't remember that quote.
 
Just because some ones use a different method, ie technique, to do something does not make it advanced, just their way of doing things.

I finished in the cash again last night. The effort, the time at practice, the desire to win and do my best and the ups and downs during a tourney is just as equal to that of a pro. To imply that only pro level experience is the only experience that matters is a slap in the face the non pros.

The only difference between you and a pro is consistency in using whatever works for them. They just miss less that's all.

I better be careful, keep finishing in the cash is gonna make me a pro, or is being considered a pro gonna be based on a minimum amount of winnings?

No one has said that your experience doesn't matter. It simply doesn't matter as much as a professional player's experience.

I am sorry Greg but the experience you have in a local tournament as a C-player isn't the same as a pro's experience at the Derby City Classic.

I have to hand it to you though you do come up with some really good off the wall sayings,

"The only difference between you and a pro is consistency in using whatever works for them. They just miss less that's all. "

Out of all the things you have said this one might be the wackiest.

Becoming a pro is more than simply execution. There are lots of guys out there who never miss when there is no one firing back at them. Also execution is so much more than simply hitting the balls and watching them move around.

Yes, Greg consistency is a major, not minor and not only, difference between a professional player and yourself.

Let me see if I can put it another way for you? In a race to 100 for $10,000 what sort of game handicap do you feel you would need to be competitive and have an even shot to win against Shane Van Boeing? 20 games? 50 games? 75 games? Do you think that where you are now that you could win against Shane Van Boeing if he started you out with a 50 game lead?

It's not that they miss less Greg, it's that they miss WAY LESS and they force you to miss WAY MORE.

Once you truly understand that you will understand the real differences between your level and a professional level.
 
Last edited:
We are on a pool forum, who's opinion would be wanted more about pool yours or CJ's?

Dude, feel free to put me on ignore. I don't really care whether you want my opinion, or not. Last time I checked, I don't need your permission to post here regardless of the content as long as it is within the posting guidelines set by the site owners ... not you. On my end, I'll try to live with the knowledge you won't write me in as your vote for President or that I won't be receiving a Christmas card from you this year.
 
Back
Top