WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[One Pocket John]

Ya know what really gets me, there are folks here that are not even close to being a pro player and yet they try to question a pro player that is trying to help players become better players.

I have taken CJ's suggestions to the table........and they work for me.

If you dont have something positive to add to this thread then maybe you should move on, or provide proof that what is said in this thread is rubbish via your own youtube demonstration.

LOL

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

Practice what CJ is telling you....it works.

John

Thanks John & you too CJ.

I think 'setting' at hip height might make a difference as I was 'setting' it, the tennis grip & wrist set, up above my waist while the cue was in my bridge across my body.

At first the cue would not stroke straight until I pronated a bit. Setting it lower might take the 'normal' supination of the hand more into a nuetral position.

I hope so, because I certainly see & feel the difference. It's more 'athletic' instead of trying to get the cue to go where you want it, you put it there, sort of like stabbing a sword or a spear into the center of an apple.

I always thought that the hinging of the wrist swinging with a loose grip that allowed the cue to float or 'throw' a bit was a good stroke & it probably is, but I can certainly see how this can work very well if I can get comfortable with it.

Again, thanks for the encouragement John.

Best Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

Cock your tip right up in front of your eyes - tip and your eyes to be CONNECTED.

Thanks John & you too CJ.

I think 'setting' at hip height might make a difference as I was 'setting' it, the tennis grip & wrist set, up above my waist while the cue was in my bridge across my body.

At first the cue would not stroke staright until I pronated a bit. Setting it lower might take the 'normal' supination of the hand more into a nuetral position.

I hope so, because I certainly see & feel the difference. It's more 'athletic' instead of trying to get the cue to go where you want it, you put it there, sort of like stabbing a sword or a spear into the center of an apple.

I always thought that the hinging of the wrist swinging with a loose grip that allowed the cue to float or 'throw' a bit was a good stroke & it probably is, but I can certainly see how this can work very well if I can comfortable with it.

Again thanks for the encouragement John.

Best Regards,

I would suggest you let your right arm hang comfortably down at your side and then cock your wrist up from there. Cock your tip right up in front of your eyes because you want your tip and your eyes to be CONNECTED.

This is SO EASY to show in person, and I'm glad you guys are hanging in there with patience.

I would never know how challenging it is to write about things I do and teach so naturally. If you don't think so try writing about taking a book of a shelf and placing it under your chair and see how easy it is...LoL :wink:

 

[One Pocket John]

No problem Rick and Thank you.

The cue with the grip should be placed on the hip bone and pointed in line with the shot. The body will turn until the left foot is parallel (jeez my spelling stinks) to the line of the shot (or cue)

Its different and wil take some time to get use to. Just keep practicing..... the steps1 2 3 4 shoot. Its like a dance.

Thanks again for being positive

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

I would suggest you let your right arm hang comfortably down at your side and then cock your wrist up from there. Cock your tip right up in front of your eyes because you want your tip and your eyes to be CONNECTED.

This is SO EASY to show in person, and I'm glad you guys are hanging in there with patience.

I would never know how challenging it is to write about things I do and teach so naturally. If you don't think so try writing about taking a book of a shelf and placing it under your chair and see how easy it is...LoL :wink:

CJ,

The thanks for patience goes to you for sticking with the open minded ones of 'us' here on AZB through all of the 'resistance' that has been thrown in your face.

You're a good man 'Charlie Brown'.

 

[Neil]

Ya know what really gets me, there are folks here that are not even close to being a pro player and yet they try to question a pro player that is trying to help players become better players.

I have taken CJ's suggestions to the table........and they work for me.

If you dont have something positive to add to this thread then maybe you should move on, or provide proof that what is said in this thread is rubbish via your own youtube demonstration.

LOL

John

You don't have to be a pro to have the same or more knowledge than a pro. Nobody is going to be a pro if they don't spend the majority of their time on the table. And, this is an open discussion forum, quit trying to censor any opinion that doesn't agree with yours or CJ's. Where's your youtube running racks now that you have your champions secrets?

 

[nobcitypool]

Hold your cue as usual, level by your side. Place your right hand on your right hip and make the tip raise up to eye level.

Notice what you're wrist is doing to accomplish this with your hand still at your hip, palm side facing your hip bone.

CJ, a couple of questions regarding this. Much better explanation than anything before BTW, this is opposite of what I thought you were describing before.

How firm is your grip when you stroke with this hand position, as firm as you had to hold it to raise it to eye level or looser than that? This seems similar to the V grip I believe Lee Brett describes but I'm not sure. Is it the same or at least similar or a totally different concept?

I ask about the firmness of the grip because when I tried this, if I kept my grip as firm as it took for me to lift up the cue tip to eye level, this doesn't allow for much of a back stroke. If I loosened up my grip, I kind of lost the wrist "cock" in the back stroke. Interesting though, even with the firmer grip. Even with the first try, I hit the CB very straight. It felt like I was pushing the cue rather than pulling the cue, TOTALLY different feeling. Does this sound right or did I lose something in the translation? Is this "technique" something you use on all, most or just some specialized shots?

I tried a few shots with the inside English on the cuts. I guess I just don't get this. Aside from times that inside English is needed for CB position, using inside English seems counter intuitive. You're magnifying the CIT. Seems like using this technique would in turn require a fairly significant aiming adjustment versus what I might normally use with center CB or outside English.

I would also note giving you credit for something else you described, i.e., the warm up strokes. I don't remember the thread but you said something to the effects you like a short stroke or two to sort of measure up the tip to the CB and felt like this relieves tension in the arm whereas longer warmup strokes tended to cause tension. I tried this and was rather amazed at how it felt in terms of relieving tension in my arm and hand which is a problem for me at times. I could literally feel the tension bleed away in the arm with a couple of short strokes.

Thanks for the better explanation on the wrist cock and the tip about the warm up strokes. I'm always open to trying things if they're explained in a manner I can understand and they make the least amount of sense.

 

[nobcitypool]

You don't have to be a pro to have the same or more knowledge than a pro. Nobody is going to be a pro if they don't spend the majority of their time on the table. And, this is an open discussion forum, quit trying to censor any opinion that doesn't agree with yours or CJ's. Where's your youtube running racks now that you have your champions secrets?

Neil, didn't you hear? English, Mikjary and OnePocketJohn purchased the site and are now dictating who can post and what they post. :sorry:

 

[Neil]

CJ,

The thanks for patience goes to you for sticking with the open minded ones of 'us' here on AZB through all of the 'resistance' that has been thrown in your face.

You're a good man 'Charlie Brown'.

:shocked::scratchhead::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

 

[nobcitypool]

:shocked::scratchhead::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

Neil, you're a hoot! LMAO

If you ever make it down Indianapolis way, give me a holler. I'll buy the beer and if you're so inclined, will provide you with a great cigar or two. If your wit in person is as sharp as on here, the laughs will be more than worth the investment.

 

[Neil]

Neil, you're a hoot! LMAO

If you ever make it down Indianapolis way, give me a holler. I'll buy the beer and if you're so inclined, will provide you with a great cigar or two. If your wit in person is as sharp as on here, the laughs will be more than worth the investment.

That would be great. Maybe someday I will get down that way.

 

[Mikjary]

CJ, a couple of questions regarding this. Much better explanation than anything before BTW, this is opposite of what I thought you were describing before.

How firm is your grip when you stroke with this hand position, as firm as you had to hold it to raise it to eye level or looser than that? This seems similar to the V grip I believe Lee Brett describes but I'm not sure. Is it the same or at least similar or a totally different concept?

I ask about the firmness of the grip because when I tried this, if I kept my grip as firm as it took for me to lift up the cue tip to eye level, this doesn't allow for much of a back stroke. If I loosened up my grip, I kind of lost the wrist "cock" in the back stroke. Interesting though, even with the firmer grip. Even with the first try, I hit the CB very straight. It felt like I was pushing the cue rather than pulling the cue, TOTALLY different feeling. Does this sound right or did I lose something in the translation? Is this "technique" something you use on all, most or just some specialized shots?

I tried a few shots with the inside English on the cuts. I guess I just don't get this. Aside from times that inside English is needed for CB position, using inside English seems counter intuitive. You're magnifying the CIT. Seems like using this technique would in turn require a fairly significant aiming adjustment versus what I might normally use with center CB or outside English.

I would also note giving you credit for something else you described, i.e., the warm up strokes. I don't remember the thread but you said something to the effects you like a short stroke or two to sort of measure up the tip to the CB and felt like this relieves tension in the arm whereas longer warmup strokes tended to cause tension. I tried this and was rather amazed at how it felt in terms of relieving tension in my arm and hand which is a problem for me at times. I could literally feel the tension bleed away in the arm with a couple of short strokes.

Thanks for the better explanation on the wrist cock and the tip about the warm up strokes. I'm always open to trying things if they're explained in a manner I can understand and they make the least amount of sense.

I noticed exactly the same results. I had to rethink the tip of inside because my stroke has changed. The amount of squirt varies differently with this new approach, but the stick still seems to go straight through the cue ball.

I haven't figured out yet why the squirt is different, but it is. I get less squirt and have to change my aim slightly. I added a step to my PSR using this technique. I lift the cue up to my eye level and take a couple of strokes with the cocked wrist. I don't feel the need to practice stroke after I get down as much.

Raising the cue stick to eye level is an easy method to demonstrate how to cock the wrist. It will be different for each shooter, yet the same movement by all users. The breaking or downward push of the wrist takes some time to get used to.

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

they are what I personally use and have found to be the most effective

CJ, a couple of questions regarding this. Much better explanation than anything before BTW, this is opposite of what I thought you were describing before.

How firm is your grip when you stroke with this hand position, as firm as you had to hold it to raise it to eye level or looser than that? This seems similar to the V grip I believe Lee Brett describes but I'm not sure. Is it the same or at least similar or a totally different concept?

I ask about the firmness of the grip because when I tried this, if I kept my grip as firm as it took for me to lift up the cue tip to eye level, this doesn't allow for much of a back stroke. If I loosened up my grip, I kind of lost the wrist "cock" in the back stroke. Interesting though, even with the firmer grip. Even with the first try, I hit the CB very straight. It felt like I was pushing the cue rather than pulling the cue, TOTALLY different feeling. Does this sound right or did I lose something in the translation? Is this "technique" something you use on all, most or just some specialized shots?

I tried a few shots with the inside English on the cuts. I guess I just don't get this. Aside from times that inside English is needed for CB position, using inside English seems counter intuitive. You're magnifying the CIT. Seems like using this technique would in turn require a fairly significant aiming adjustment versus what I might normally use with center CB or outside English.

I would also note giving you credit for something else you described, i.e., the warm up strokes. I don't remember the thread but you said something to the effects you like a short stroke or two to sort of measure up the tip to the CB and felt like this relieves tension in the arm whereas longer warmup strokes tended to cause tension. I tried this and was rather amazed at how it felt in terms of relieving tension in my arm and hand which is a problem for me at times. I could literally feel the tension bleed away in the arm with a couple of short strokes.

Thanks for the better explanation on the wrist cock and the tip about the warm up strokes. I'm always open to trying things if they're explained in a manner I can understand and they make the least amount of sense.

In all fairness, when discussing things that are "outside the norm" it usually takes a variety or combination of explanations before it's truly understood. I take it for granted since, in person I have a mental list of 3 themes of explinations, and a few variations of specific details that are proven (in my experience) to get someone in the "understanding mode" quickly.

With that being said, allow me to answer your questions.

I have heard other players compare my grip to the "V Grip", I know Mr. Brett, but don't know what he teaches. If there are similarities in my grip and the movement I suggest with the wrist/fingers I wouldn't be surprised, and like all my techniques they are what I personally use and have found to be the most effective.

I know my grip has been questioned and talked about, and I did go over it in my original 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' using a sword, however I resisted going into great detail.

Concerning firmness: I practice on both ends of the spectrum in this respect. I will squeeze the cue, cock it and play with a firm grip and sometimes I only use two fingers (using thumb/first two fingers) with a very light grip pressure if I'm working on Touch/Finesse/Feel shots.

I play with a firm, controlled pressure, that gives {ME} the ideal balance between power and touch. I use the same pressure when playing golf or tennis as well and played all three games at the same time for several years when in my early teenage years (although I played golf left handed).

I cock my wrist on all shots, and just less on finesse or slow rolled shots. However, my main objective, in Buddy Hall fashion is to hit most shots the same speed and as in my example cock up to eye level from my hip. Then I take my practice stokes BEFORE I get down on the shot, not after.

My main objective is to cock my wrist/fingers in such a way to create a track/slot that makes it virtually impssible to not hit the cue ball straight.

Yes, the stroke (for me) is a pushing motion that extends the tip through the cue ball. When players on here talk about pulling the cue they lose me because I can't relate to that at all. Notice I don't tell them they are full of "BS", "crazy", "trying to con people" "say they are talking nonsense", I JUST simply am "quietly confused" and can't relate to why they play in that way.

The TOUCH of Inside technique I have explained in many ways. First off, I DO NOT spin the cue ball, I just "cue it" to the inside. This creates a situation that slightly overcuts the object ball. When combined with this "Wrist/Finger Stroke" it is DEADLY ACCURATE and expands the Pocket Zone by an impressive margin. Someone that aims at the center of the pocket and uses center ball can't win with the 5/7 playing 9 Ball.

I'm not boasting, just stating a fact, when you learn to use the 3 Part Pocket System and look at the pocket as a Zone (and learn to pre set your hand so you hit the cue ball straight every time), the Game changes and becomes possible to play without error for hours at a time.

I'm not claiming to be "better" than the players {on this Forum} that don't understand my techniques, I'm simply playing a different Game than they are. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com

 

[maxeberle]

Yes the "hammer drill" gives the feeling of how the wrist can be a *catalyst* for power in the stroke. The cue is like a "delivery system" for the tip. And the tip, after all is what we are playing the game with.

The cue has SO MANY purposes that are overlooked by amateur players. It's a measuring devise, a power/speed generator and with the wrist used in an "athletic way" it can be used to leverage extra power and accuracy with a minumum amount of effort......"effortless effort" is the result of a great stroke.

*cat·a·lyst   [kat-l-ist] Show IPA
noun
1.
Chemistry . a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected.
2.
something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces without itself being affected.
3.
a person or thing that precipitates an event or change: His imprisonment by the government served as the catalyst that helped transform social unrest into revolution.
4.
a person whose talk, enthusiasm, or energy causes others to be more friendly, enthusiastic, or energetic.

That is a great word huh? Thanks for the definition CJ! Cool description of cue/tip/wrist purposes etc...

Btw, I used to tell people that the game will teach you how to play as you work on it... so I could not agree more that "The Game IS The Teacher" Thanks CJ

 

[CJ Wiley]

I had a splitting headache after that match

Neil, you're a hoot! LMAO

If you ever make it down Indianapolis way, give me a holler. I'll buy the beer and if you're so inclined, will provide you with a great cigar or two. If your wit in person is as sharp as on here, the laughs will be more than worth the investment.

You're from Indianapolis? I played a lot there when I was in my teenage years where George Breedlove played, Sticks and Stones and also at a bar Tommy Staton owned.

At Tommy's bar I played Vernan Elliot (The Faceless Man), and if you know or know of Vernan, he was secretly one of the best money players in the country. I had beat all the locals and played til about 5am when this older man in bib overalls came in, yawning with a cup of coffee in his hand.

I was sitting there talking to some friends of Tommy and the older gentleman came over and ask me if I cared to play. I looked at him, sized him up and said "sure, what do you want to play for?", he replied "a hundred a game is fine to start out for," I knew this could be really good...or....

One of the locals quickly told me he was a "rich farmer" and loved to play 9Ball on the bar box and would play for hours.

Well, we did play for hours, many hours and playing two foul "roll out" rules he was a extremely tough opponent. He banked, moved and positioned me better than anyone had ever done it seemed. After about 10 hours we were "dead even" on the money and both agreed to quit.

I had a splitting headache after that match and told the guy I was with over Waffle House "fine dining" that "I don't know who that old man is, but I have a headache from playing him and I think I'll pass on playing any more."

We called down the next day and cancelled our appointment to play and left town. I heard he later beat some of the best players around Indiana out of tens of thousands of dollars and learned I had dodged a bullet. It was indeed VERNAN ELLIOT "The Faceless Man," and at 19 years old I was going to be the underdog the longer I messed with that man. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

don't be "miss led"

I noticed exactly the same results. I had to rethink the tip of inside because my stroke has changed. The amount of squirt varies differently with this new approach, but the stick still seems to go straight through the cue ball.

I haven't figured out yet why the squirt is different, but it is. I get less squirt and have to change my aim slightly. I added a step to my PSR using this technique. I lift the cue up to my eye level and take a couple of strokes with the cocked wrist. I don't feel the need to practice stroke after I get down as much.

Raising the cue stick to eye level is an easy method to demonstrate how to cock the wrist. It will be different for each shooter, yet the same movement by all users. The breaking or downward push of the wrist takes some time to get used to.

Best,
Mike

Make sure when you do your move that you are calling "breaking or downward push of the wrist," you are keeping the cue going staight. This is how slight the movement is and why no one can detect it. It will be more of a feeling of control in your hand than you had before.

When you see the filipino players play it's misleading. It appears the they are barely holding onto the cue when they are getting "loose", however when they go through the cue ball they are as firm as I am.

Don't let this confuse you, it's not as it appears, they are in CONTROL of their cue, they just have a different way of showing it. I use more of a consistent grip pressure and this takes less practice to "keep in stroke" because it takes slightly less calculation.

Both are effective, however don't be "miss led" into thinking they don't have a great deal of Touch in their hands/wrists/fingers because they certainly do. The Game is played with the hands and fingers, not the forearm or arm, at least in "my world". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Mental Side my favorite topic

That is a great word huh? Thanks for the definition CJ! Cool description of cue/tip/wrist purposes etc...

Btw, I used to tell people that the game will teach you how to play as you work on it... so I could not agree more that "The Game IS The Teacher" Thanks CJ

Hey there Max, Catalyst is appropriate in relating well to the Game of Billiards and how "the end justifies the means." Another word that applies to utilizing the systems and techniques that I use is Synergy.

When all the parts of your Game start to come together it creates a "synergistic effect" where the whole is much more powerful than the individual parts.

This is why I recommend to "blend your game" and understand how the whole body relates to the "Line of the Shot".

Max and I have had many discussions on the "Mental Side" of pocket billiards and I believe Max to be one of the true experts in this department.

The Mental Side my favorite topic (maybe a Mental Side thead would be appropriate sometime soon), believe it or not "talking about basics" isn't something I do for fun, however, the Mental Side is fascinating when discussing the "Inside Techniques." 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Donkey Bruce]

You don't have to be a pro to have the same or more knowledge than a pro. Nobody is going to be a pro if they don't spend the majority of their time on the table. And, this is an open discussion forum, quit trying to censor any opinion that doesn't agree with yours or CJ's. Where's your youtube running racks now that you have your champions secrets?

Where's yours, Mr. twelve pack?

Sent from my LG-P500 using Tapatalk

 

[TheThaiger]

Funny, I noticed that as well.

Also amusing is how Neil has gone from criticising those who he saw as driving CJ from the board to, er, attempting to drive CJ from the board himself.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Cover your real eyes if you don't realize whos been telling the real lies.

Hey CJ how about making a short video going over this wrist action and posting to Youtube?

I will, it's all in my new DVD. Don't look if you're a "conventional instuctor", I'm going to show my new DVD now.

Cover your real eyes if you don't realize who's been telling the real lies. :groucho:

www.cjwiley.com