Precision Aiming in Safety Play

Bob Jewett said:
In practice, I think it helps to have a target at the mirror location so you can simply shoot the object ball to that target. If the goal doesn't change -- such as the center of the foot rail -- the mirror target can stay in the same place for a bunch of shots with the object ball starting in many places.

The way you constructed the mirror target was not quite correct. The reflection point is the rail groove. Maybe a minor point, but I think it is better to get all the details right.
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That's a good point. I think I will make a follow up video and correct it. I didn't want to make a target at the mirror location such as a spot on the wall because I was trying to show my method of "bouncing" the cue to find the spot.

But your tip is absolutely the nuts. Not only for practice where you can set up a mirror target at will but also in game situations if you are able identify key landmarks around the table that are in line as mirror targets then you can use them from any position without the need to do all the cue waving.

Thank you.
 
Renegade_56 said:
I believe Bob is refering to the rail "Track", which is the Groove a half ball distance from the rail on "experienced" cloth.
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Oh damn. I know exactly the groove or track that you're talking about. Hell, I never thought of that, but it would seem to make more sense.

I'd still like Bob's confirmation, since he's the resident professor and all, but thanks for enlightening me a bit, Renegade.

That might be why I've been off in Alex's system a bit at times. Probably a combo of that and being in a bit of a rush at the table when I feel I'm taking too long to figure out the kick.
 
fathomblue said:
Bob, are you talking about the area underneath the rail? Where all the lint and debris collects? That's what I've called the rail groove, but I just want to confirm.

That was gonna be my question today, since I wasn't sure if the mirror point was the nose of the cushion or not.

I slide my cue under the cushion, into that rail groove, when I'm figuring 1-rail kicks for an OB that's really off-angle from the CB. I saw Alex Pagulayan use it. It seemed to be pretty accurate.
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The "rail groove" is where the base of a ball sits when it is frozen to the cushion. It is usually clearly visible on a worn/old cloth.

Whether you use the rail groove or the nose of the cushion on the line of diamonds depends on the type of kick and bank, the speed and distance of the shot, and the system being used.

FYI, the following video gives a fairly good overview of bank and kick terminology (including the "rail groove"), along with the basics of aiming:

Much more detail (and additional video demonstrations) for commonly used system can be found here:

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Renegade_56 said:
I believe Bob is refering to the rail "Track", which is the Groove a half ball distance from the rail on "experienced" cloth.
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Yes, the rail groove is the point closest to the cushion that the center of the ball can get (or the spot just under it). It is the line that shows a lot of wear on old cloth. Using the nose of the cushion for the mirror location (reflecting plane) gets the target in the wrong spot by about one ball diameter.

For the safety practice John is talking about, it probably makes little difference. You are not required to get the object ball within 2mm of the intended place, and you have rail non-idealities to worry about which are probably larger.

The difference between rail groove and rail nose mirroring is most important for balls close to the cushion and then it depends on exactly how you are shooting. If you are shooting softly and shallowly, the rail nose actually gives you a better answer because it compensates for "angle in equal angle out" not being true by about 30%.

Some authors do mirror reflection at the diamonds and I think that is bad in nearly all cases.

The huge, huge advantage of setting up the mirror image target is that you can take many shots without ever doing a calculation. Just shoot at the target. You do need to learn, however, how to shoot to the calculated target without a drink cup sitting on a bar stool in just the right location by the table. Unless your opponent is too wasted to notice you moving furniture around.
 
Nice video John! As someone who had studied quite a lot of banking and kicking systems, primarily from playing 3 cushion, I never really thought of using this to estimate safeties either. I played with it for 5 - 10 minutes on some weird off angle shots and it was definitely helpful in estimate the proper hit.

The point about the rail groove or track vs. nose vs. diamonds was already made. I agree it probably doesn't make a huge difference, especially when estimating out in space. It does make a difference when using the mirror system for rail first shots near a rail though. For those, when approaching at a shallow angle, you want to measure to the rail track, and when approaching at a sharper angle you measure to the nose of the cushion. That accounts for the differences in slide that occurs when the cue ball hits the cushion.

Again, thanks John, I hope to be able to use this for some killer safeties soon... :)

Scott
 
JB Cases said:
I always practice them. I liken it to trick shots in that you can do some really impressive stuff if you have the knowledge. I like it when I can float the cue ball into a tight area and have it nestle up against a ball. Or bank a ball perfectly into a cluster. Essentially I like finding creative and effective solutions that aren't obvious. To me the obvious safeties also have obvious answers for the incoming player.

There is so much depth to the game beyond simply pocketing balls.

Well I played around a little more with this and it's really powerful. Still requires a good touch and some practice to understand the speed and how to adjust to avoid kisses on the crossing shots. But as a tool to figure out approximately the right aiming line it's the nuts.

Another thing that's not obvious is extending the lines. This is what I call it when you go beyond the obvious two rails or three rails and see what happens when the ball were to roll a little farther. I guess this is a bit hard to explain but when you watch the pros you will often see them play a safety that has the either the cue ball or the object ball taking an extra rail in order to slow it down or reverse the spin to put on the brakes. These are really advanced shots to me that the amateur either doesn't see or doesn't know how to execute. So I have been working on these shots for both safety and position play. Carom players of course know them but pool players mostly don't.

A lot of knowledge can be gained with just the cue ball and one other ball and observing and absorbing what happens when you experiment.
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The speed is what's hard to master, both cueball and object ball. As you know, one floats out a few inches too far and it's a sell out.

I remember in golf instruction, concerning putting, Jack Nicklaus said something like "if you examine your misses, you're far more likely to have a greater distance error than a line error". That's pretty much true in golf - you're putt line might miss the cup by six inches but come up 4 feet long or short.

I consider the same thing on safeties. That's why I like to practice situational safeties. It's a lot more about precision force than precision line.

Chris
 
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joyren said:
Sir

Maybe you can share to us some of those safety plays, i believed to become a better pool player you got to have good safety play too. Shooting balls on open table are quite easy, but when problem balls arrived like frozen 2 balls or others, a good player with carom will come into effect, that is why a carom player always advised me to learn carom and my white ball will surely improve a lot

Thanks
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I'll work on my presentation and maybe we'll have another thread with some of the basic safeties.
 
TheThaiger said:
Yeah. Ignoring the only really useful advice in this thread is the AZB way.

:rolleyes:
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So you think that it's more useful to talk about stroke mechanics than a powerful tool to aim banks and safeties with?

The topic is how best to use the Double-the-Distance/Mirror method. Who cares whether the shooter has a good stroke or not? This is merely a discussion on the method and should remain so.

If we were to play then I can guarantee that even with my funky stroke I can make the cue ball do what I want. And if we were otherwise dead even as players, you with a textbook perfect stroke and me with a wonky one, if I had this knowledge of the DTD method and you don't then it's likely I am going to put more good safeties on you which will result in me getting better opportunities. So just using the numbers where I end up with ball in hand more than you I should beat you all other things being equal.

Now lets assume that I fix my wonky stroke and you still don't have the DTD knowledge. Well then it won't even be close as I will flat out destroy you. A stroke can be fixed in minutes, advanced knowledge takes more time to learn and absorb. So, with all due respect, thank you for the advice but it is not the most important in the thread.
 
One of the benefits of practicing what John is describing is that it forces you to pay attention on your stroke execution. To be consistent in going rail first like kicks for safeties requires a consistent stroke execution. It doesn't matter what the stroke looks like,but that the stroke can be executed consistently by the person.
 
duckie said:
One of the benefits of practicing what John is describing is that it forces you to pay attention on your stroke execution. To be consistent in going rail first like kicks for safeties requires a consistent stroke execution. It doesn't matter what the stroke looks like,but that the stroke can be executed consistently by the person.
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Agreed, but his stroke WASN'T consistent.
 
JB Cases said:
So you think that it's more useful to talk about stroke mechanics than a powerful tool to aim banks and safeties with?

The topic is how best to use the Double-the-Distance/Mirror method. Who cares whether the shooter has a good stroke or not? This is merely a discussion on the method and should remain so.

If we were to play then I can guarantee that even with my funky stroke I can make the cue ball do what I want. And if we were otherwise dead even as players, you with a textbook perfect stroke and me with a wonky one, if I had this knowledge of the DTD method and you don't then it's likely I am going to put more good safeties on you which will result in me getting better opportunities. So just using the numbers where I end up with ball in hand more than you I should beat you all other things being equal.

Now lets assume that I fix my wonky stroke and you still don't have the DTD knowledge. Well then it won't even be close as I will flat out destroy you. A stroke can be fixed in minutes, advanced knowledge takes more time to learn and absorb. So, with all due respect, thank you for the advice but it is not the most important in the thread.
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You've said you're happy with your stroke and that's fine. I was merely responding to someone telling you to ignore what I said, which, in the context of the last few dronathon threads on wrists had some merit, I thought. Everyone seems obsessed with systems, which I believe are counterproductive without stroke.

BTW, I can't agree with your assertion that a stroke can be fixed in minutes, and a system like DTD takes time and advanced knowledge to learn. Strokes can take years to learn, whilst I 'got' the principle of DTD within the first few minutes of seeing your video, having previously never heard of it. I think it's absolute garbage as a concept, but it's not difficult to understand.

Feel, man! What's wrong with playing with feel?
 
TheThaiger said:
... I 'got' the principle of DTD within the first few minutes of seeing your video, having previously never heard of it. I think it's absolute garbage as a concept, but it's not difficult to understand.

Feel, man! What's wrong with playing with feel?
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Nothing is wrong with playing by feel and in the end that's how all good players play, but systems are useful for organizing that feel into a framework and for some kinds of shots help you develop feel faster.

The first real system I worked with was the corner-5 out of Hoppe's book. It will always get you into the right ball park, and for new players it will usually get them a good hit on two simple cushions. One thing that working with the system did for me was to teach me that consistency in angles can't be achieved without consistency in spin and speed.

If you are studying a particular kind of shot, it can also show you quickly how variations in spin and speed can change the shot because you are comparing predicted and achieved outcomes within the framework.

However, Raymond Ceulemans said that he won a number of world championships without using systems. Later he did take up systems and won his last world championship at 3-cushion about 40 years after he won his first one and in a much tougher field.
 
TheThaiger said:
What's wrong with playing with feel?
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Nothing, of course - everybody plays with feel. Everybody applies whatever knowledge they have too, usually without noticing. If I had to give up feel or knowledge I'd dump knowledge in a second - but I'm glad I don't have to choose. Knowledge adds a lot; I'd play worse without it.

pj
chgo
 
TheThaiger said:
You've said you're happy with your stroke and that's fine. I was merely responding to someone telling you to ignore what I said, which, in the context of the last few dronathon threads on wrists had some merit, I thought. Everyone seems obsessed with systems, which I believe are counterproductive without stroke.

BTW, I can't agree with your assertion that a stroke can be fixed in minutes, and a system like DTD takes time and advanced knowledge to learn. Strokes can take years to learn, whilst I 'got' the principle of DTD within the first few minutes of seeing your video, having previously never heard of it. I think it's absolute garbage as a concept, but it's not difficult to understand.

Feel, man! What's wrong with playing with feel?
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Well you can think that DTD is garbage but it works. Taking the safety play aspect away and focusing only on kicking it's deadly accurate.

You take two players of equal ability and teach one DTD and let them play each other and the DTD player WILL win more often because he will make more successful kick shots.

Teach him how to use DTD for safety play as I demonstrate here and he will learn to lay down some wicked safeties which the other player will have a hard time kicking out of using only feel.

Thus by learning one effective method of measuring where to aim the player who learns it has two powerful new skills, one the ability to hit the object ball no matter where it is and the ability to send the object ball precisely to any spot he chooses. This ability comes not from practicing every possible kick and bank but instead from learning a simple method of figuring the angles.

Using that method feel is then honed and refined to a sharp edge. Last night for example I played in a room with super fast cloth. Using the DTD method I could instantly see how the balls reacted and how I should adjust my aim to account for the extra slide. Thus I was instantly zeroed on on how to play that table.

Regarding stroke and mechanics they are of course important but not in the context of this thread. This topic assumes that the reader has a decent enough ability to hit the cue ball in the right spot at the right speed consistently. If a person can't do that then this thread is too advanced for them at this point in their study of pocket billiards. Interjecting comments about the stroke is as distracting as if I were to interject comments about aiming methods in the thread about wrist motion.
 
Thanks for posting that John. I've always just played by feel. Maybe that's why I'm only an A player. I'll give it a try Monday when my table gets covered
 
JB Cases said:
Interjecting comments about the stroke is as distracting as if I were to interject comments about aiming methods in the thread about wrist motion.
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Firstly, I think aiming was just about the ONLY sporting related endeavor not mentioned in that thread, so staying strictly on topic is not that common around here. Secondly, had I not mentioned your stroke, this thread would've died a death at around post #8.

All publicity is good publicity, John. :wink:
 
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