WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

They, in their own personal way are "becoming the cue ball."

Sloppy Pockets said:
A good way to look at this is how a roofer learns to walk both ways along a roof edge without falling off. At first, the novice roofer instinctively wants to stay as far away as he can, but in time he learns to get real close (a "touch of inside", so to speak) walking both ways without ever erring to the wrong side.

No "trial and error" on this one, though.:eek:



You keep alluding to this notion of energy transfer from the CB to the object ball. What (aside from speed, spin and the mass of the CB) are you transferring? We all know you can't "pack" potential energy into the CB by hitting it "correctly"... don't we?
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Of course no one can transfer energy literally from the cue ball to the object ball. However, you will notice that the "cue balls" of the champions do have a type of "personality," that extends to everyone watching. They, in their own personal way are "becoming the cue ball."

To reach the level of having complete control over "whitey," you must connect to the game in a way that feels like "becoming the cue ball." Do we really become the cue ball? Do you really need to ask? :confused: I'm joking of course, but some people seem to think that I suggest "defying the laws of physics," and silly things like that.

I realize natural laws are used to describe physical occurances - gravity, physics and action/reaction Laws are very real and absolute. I also "Real Eyes" what it takes to understand the higher levels of consciousness.

Ok, now that I've made the "disclaimers" I can tell you that it's not "becoming the cue ball," or feeling like your "transfering energy" that's important to reaching the higher levels of the unconscious mind. It's the ATTEMPT that matters, because training yourself to become more creative is done OUTSIDE the realm of "natural occurances."

Even Einstein*, when discussing his "Theory of Relativity" imagined chasing a beam of light*. Was he really doing this or was he opening up a "higher level" of concsiousness to aid in conceptualizing, understanding, and communicating his thoughts? Einstein knew this was "his" only way.
 I will humbly agree.

The key to improving and reaching the "next level" in games, business or life is the dedication to NOT stay at the level we're currently at. This takes imagination, creativity and/or experimentation to achieve and I doubt if there's many exeptions to this "Law". 'The Game is the Teacher'

*
http://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/Chasing_the_light/
John D. Norton
Department of History and Philosophy of Science
University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh PA 15260
Homepage: www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton
This page (with animated figures) is available at www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/goodies

Einstein recalled how, at the age of 16, he imagined chasing after a beam of light and that the thought experiment had played a memorable role in his development of special relativity. Famous as it is, it has proven difficult to understand just how the thought experiment delivers its results.

For more details, see:

"Chasing the Light: Einstein's Most Famous Thought Experiment," prepared for Thought Experiments in Philosophy, Science and the Arts, eds., James Robert Brown, Mélanie Frappier and Letitia Meynell, Routledge. Download.

Sections 5-6 of "Einstein's Investigations of Galilean Covariant Electrodynamics prior to 1905," Archive for History of Exact Sciences, 59 (2004), pp. 45*105. Download.
 
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I know this is a different way of looking at the game than "normally taught,"

ENGLISH! said:
CJ,

Thanks for the reply.

My stroke is fine, but I know how even a bit off from center can affect a shot. That is why I have been shooting with a chosen side in or out for so many years.

I'll try next time to get it down to a HAIR as thin as my own hair is getting.:wink:

Thanks again,
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======================================================

You are making my point and you need to "Real Eyes" it. I'm not talking about doing it "in or out," I'm talking about doing it ONE WAY and one way only. Most people hit both sides of the cue ball. This is still NOT the way I'm suggesting. (this isn't literally EVERY TIME, but you have to practice this way to "get it.")

If you hit "IN" 50% of the time and "OUT" 50% of the time (as an example only please), and I hit "IN" 100% of the time, who's going to have more "Mastery" over their shot? I realize this is a different way of looking at the game than "normally taught," however, that's what my whole "Touch of Inside" is all about.

Like I have said before, it's not that I play a better game than many people on this Forum, I PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME. This has nothing to do with "ego," it has everything to do with perception. Just like increasing "margin of error," it can only be done if you CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION (change your way of looking at things). If this doesn't make sense right now, just put it on a shelf in your mind and make it available for later.;) 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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CJ Wiley said:
If you hit "IN" 50% of the time and "OUT" 50% of the time (as an example only please), and I hit "IN" 100% of the time, who's going to have more "Mastery" over their shot? I realize this is a different way of looking at the game than "normally taught," however, that's what my whole "Touch of Inside" is all about.
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CJ,

Thanks again for your input.

I do 'see' the point even with my astigmatism. That is why I said "have been" & why I am seriously considering making the change after 46 years of playing fairly well on both sides of the ball. I have not had MY shot. I have had a talent for making shots with all spins at a fairly high percentage. But has that way of playing kept me at that percentage? There is only one way to find out. It's kind of like that look in the mirror you had long ago.

Thanks again,
 
Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson were the same way.

ENGLISH! said:
CJ,

Thanks again for your input.

I do 'see' the point even with my astigmatism. That is why I said "have been" & why I am seriously considering making the change after 46 years of playing fairly well on both sides of the ball. I have not had MY shot. I have had a talent for making shots with all spins at a fairly high percentage. But has that way of playing kept me at that percentage? There is only one way to find out. It's kind of like that look in the mirror you had long ago.

Thanks again,
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This is true in all sports and games. The football quarterback, golfer, tennis player ALL shape the pattern of their shots according to their own personal preference. Can Tiger Woods Draw OR Fade his ball?

The answer is obviously "yes," however, in competition he will always choose to Fade the ball because it gives him more control. Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson were the same way. They don't "Hook or Slice"(like "spinning the cue ball in pool), they Draw and Fade.....this is just a "Touch" of ball movement. :wink:

No one ever thought about it when it came to pool except the "upper excel-on players".....many talk about Earl spinning the ball a lot, what they don't mention is that he spins it the SAME all the time. He knows the importance of Drawing or Fading the ball, he also plays golf and tennis. To create "zones" and increase "margin of error" you must "work the ball" as they describe it in other sports.

 
CJ Wiley said:
B] To create "zones" and increase "margin of error" you must "work the ball" as they describe it in other sports.

[/B]
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CJ,

Your reference to other sports has made me think. When I serve in tennis I spin it both ways. When I threw a baseball I moved it both ways. When I play golf I curve it both ways. I have done these things under control as in pool, but always both ways.

I'm not exactly sure what that means, but in all of those sports even though I could do both, one was or is always better than the other. I guess it comes down to Jack of all...and Master of none. I like versatility, but...

Thanks for making me really think about it! Maybe it's time I get serious as long as I can still keep it fun.

Best Regards,
 
Certain things out of the normal are usually found by mistake or an idea is taken from something else and then developed and tweaked to fit something different. Not many people can do this but the ones that can are usually pretty successful and understand how to advance. Efren says he has learned stuff off watching bangers play. I bet he learned some cue ball control/technique off the bangers miss hits, like hitting inside instead of outside, etc and pick up some creativity off their shoot selections and misses.
 
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AtLarge said:
What do you mean by the same all the time? Please explain further.
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Of course, Earl doesn't "spin it the same all the time." What Earl and the other great champions do is to select from a WIDE variety of spins and then actually execute THAT type of spin with great consistency. I assume that is what he meant.

Stated another way...I've seen a top pro tell spectators to orient the dot on a cue ball anywhere in the "non-miscue" area of the face of the CB and make fairly tough shots while putting a chalk mark RIGHT ON the dot.

Try it some time. You will QUICKLY learn that the tip isn't contacting the CB where you intend it to....unless you're very pretty sporty player.

(Rempe Training Balls are great to use for that type of practice. When I first started using them, I was SHOCKED at how for above the miscue line my tip was contacting the CB on draw shots!)

(-:
 
If I undercut a shot I hit it firmer and accelerate more next time.

AtLarge said:
What do you mean by the same all the time? Please explain further.
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There's two trains of thought when playing pocket billiard games. One is to let the table dictate what shot you hit. That would mean you look at the shot and it tells you what speed, what spin, and what angle (is the best to get on your next shot).

The other way is what I'm suggesting. Develop a shot that enables you to maximize the pocket size. This means you line up to undercut the shot slightly (aim in the pocket, but on the "undercut side") and then either spin it, or deflect it to overcut{side} slightly.

Earl spins to accomplish this and I deflect it to "throw it in the pocket." I want to look at the table situation and MAKE my shot fit the scenario. I know this is not the "conventional" way of playing, but it's very effective and works great on tight, worn equipment. On new, fast cloth you shouldn't hit the shots quite as firm.

My preference is to deflect the ball slightly{aligning} with a "Touch" of Inside because I can get a more consistent result by adjusting my speed, rather than my "aim". Then you can start playing a consistent angle as well. This means you're controlling the angle, the speed, and the spin according to your preference, not because the "table tells you the shot."

Sounds backwards, however, think about it, how well could you play if you hit the same speed, {same}place on the cue ball, and{same} angle{most}every time?

If I undercut a shot I hit it firmer and accelerate more next time. If you miss the same shot hitting a "slow spin shot," you don't really know what happened if you miss. There's more calulations, so therefore more variables to deal with.

This doesn't enable you to play a lot better, but it does enable you to know why you don't make shots. It's vitally important, when you don't make one to immediately know what happened exactly!

If you make an adjustment that's incorrect it could throw you off temporately enough to lose a whole match or gambling set. The amount of money involved in matches I've played prohibited this type of guessing. I had to KNOW!

When you spin the ball or try to hit center and miss there's a lot more variatables and it's difficult to know and adjust for "misses". This effects your ability to maximize "margin of error."

"The difference between an amateur and a professional is an amateur will practice until they CAN make shots and a professional will practice until they CAN'T miss shots." CJ Wiley
 
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It's best to remove unnecessary calculations if you have choice.

I'm not exactly sure what that means, but in all of those sports even though I could do both, one was or is always better than the other. I guess it comes down to Jack of all...and Master of none. I like versatility, but...

Thanks for making me really think about it! Maybe it's time I get serious as long as I can still keep it fun.

Best Regards,[/QUOTE]

That's right, if you play that you are "destined" to be a "jack of all spins, master of none." If there's no other option I can spin balls as good as anyone, I just choose not to, if possible.

When playing under a lot of pressure it's best to remove unnecessary calculations if you have choice and play your "best shot." Golfers, tennis players, pitchers etc. all do this when they have to. Why not "play like you have to" all the time?

I'm also saying I "choose" to be a "Master of one shot," and make it work at every possible opportunity. If this is confusing, just put up on a "mental shelf" for later reference. This is a different paradigm of playing pool and certainly not "for everyone." I'm sure if you really want to reach the next level, but are struggling - this technique might be worth experiencing. 'The Game is the Teacher'

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Master of one shot is pretty accurate I think... We have watched the Pinoys do this for years playing multiple rail positions to zones... Tons of distance but the shot is always controlled because it's just an extension of a shot they do at 100% success rate so extending it 2, 3 or 4 rails still makes it a 95%er......

Earl does this as well... When he loads a ball up and someone thinks he is just showing off he is only extending what he knows and letting it eat..

Beats the crap out of babying a ball or slow rolling it if the natural path from the shot he knows takes him even 4 rails into a position zone......
 
You can use side spin because you want to, not because you think you "have to".

The Renfro said:
Master of one shot is pretty accurate I think... We have watched the Pinoys do this for years playing multiple rail positions to zones... Tons of distance but the shot is always controlled because it's just an extension of a shot they do at 100% success rate so extending it 2, 3 or 4 rails still makes it a 95%er......

Earl does this as well... When he loads a ball up and someone thinks he is just showing off he is only extending what he knows and letting it eat..

Beats the crap out of babying a ball or slow rolling it if the natural path from the shot he knows takes him even 4 rails into a position zone......
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A great drill I use when preparing for a "game" is going an extra rail EVERY TIME. Buddy Hall told me how he calculated his Zones for position and simply illustrated "one is better than none, two is better than one and three is better than two." For pin point position it's best to either go to an extra rail or at least towards an exact spot on one.

This doesn't mean if you could "stop your ball" you should go one rail instead, it's just how to look for your biggest zone for maximum "margin of error." When looking for zones you complete the cue ball's "path line" to the rail or you can't see the potential "trouble spots."

This is best understood when you become completely familiar with the "natural" angles using a consistent "no side spin" cue ball.

Once you completely master the "no side-spin shot," then you are able to truly use it as a relative "index" for every situation. As you know exactly what hitting the cue ball slightly inside the vertical axis will do, you start to "real eyes" that you don't really "need" side spin.

Then {after this is experienced} you can use side spin because you want to, not because you think you "have to". I used to hate playing guys that did this because I knew it was going to take many hours to break them down mentally. Then it would just come down to an "endurance contest."

There are players that have played pool for many years that never learned they can hit {approximately}90% of the shots hitting the inside "quadrant" of the cue ball. The only time you have to cue it anywhere else is when you need to curve the cue ball or change the angle coming off a rail (and "throwing a bank", in certain situations). 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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Here's an update of my progress with a touch of inside. I've been trying to use it on all types of different tables and conditions. I've found it works best on tight pockets because there's where you really need it.

My ball pocketing is more consistent and I have more confidence when I firm any shot. Speed control is crucial and this is where I've encountered my biggest problems. Going from fast tables to slow, dead tables takes a little experience. I played last weekend on a bar table with live rails and slow cloth. It was tough to kill the cue ball, yet you had to hit firm to get the ball to go around the table.

A second learning adjustment is when not to use my newfound tool. I'm still finding new ways to get position using a touch of inside rather than using outside spin. I can get the pos with outside spin, but I challenge myself to try a bit of inside. It either goes really well, or suicidally bad! sad0147.gif I know with more practice I'm gonna see a jump in my game. It's a mental hurdle that time on the table will allow me to leap past.

I'm still trying to find the perfect cocked wrist that is natural to my stroke. It's been narrowed down to two options. I will know in a day or two because of some drills I've been doing and overall play. I play an extended period of time with one, then the other and compare results. I may even keep the one that is cast off as a backup because it cinches balls so well. With it, my wrist is completely locked and I can't get as much cue ball control or spin if I need it. But to cinch a shot, it is worth it. I may only use it every other rack and maybe not.

A touch of inside is a mental execise that's well worth the time to learn. It's helped me become more consistent and confident with my shot making. I would've liked to learn this quite a few years ago. anim_03.gifThere's always tomorrow to get it right! anim_19.gif

Best,
Mike
 
I know I have two grips, I have my straight in shot grip, which I seem to use for med/long shots and I caulk my hand quite a bit more than normal. I notice this when i am looking at the shot thinking WTF, did i just do! :) Then I have my slightly caulked grip when I am moving from shot to shot.
 
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Hi CJ,

I play around with everything you said, some things I have done before but not exactly the way you describe it - hope you get me there.
And do keep the explanations come because I "get" it more and more,
I do understand how difficult it is to explain a "feel" and a technique.
The greatest teacher is the one who knows he has to be a pupil to his own apprentices when the need for several explanations is needed for us to grasp it.

My eyes has opened for the unorthodox styles also, for example Keith Mcready, just look at him, - when he does hit it he´s dead on, no fear, just trust in his capability. When it´s needed he is present in the presence, - sort of speak. One with the cue and object ball.

So do keep the tips coming, I´m having a blast trying them out:smile:.

Btw for me it seems that when I play inside - which I do a lot the cue seems to travel "straighter" after contact, inside of the natural tangent line sort of speak. I have my thoughts on it but I do like to hear your take on it, ohh - don´t mind if someone else want to give me a tip or 2 of course. I´m like a sponge, always eager to take advice. Then select what I like of course....

Take care

Chrippa
 
when you commit to play the "Touch of Inside" on all your shots the game changes

Chrippa said:
Hi CJ,

I play around with everything you said, some things I have done before but not exactly the way you describe it - hope you get me there.
And do keep the explanations come because I "get" it more and more,
I do understand how difficult it is to explain a "feel" and a technique.
The greatest teacher is the one who knows he has to be a pupil to his own apprentices when the need for several explanations is needed for us to grasp it.

My eyes has opened for the unorthodox styles also, for example Keith Mcready, just look at him, - when he does hit it he´s dead on, no fear, just trust in his capability. When it´s needed he is present in the presence, - sort of speak. One with the cue and object ball.

So do keep the tips coming, I´m having a blast trying them out:smile:.

Btw for me it seems that when I play inside - which I do a lot the cue seems to travel "straighter" after contact, inside of the natural tangent line sort of speak. I have my thoughts on it but I do like to hear your take on it, ohh - don´t mind if someone else want to give me a tip or 2 of course. I´m like a sponge, always eager to take advice. Then select what I like of course....

Take care

Chrippa
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I'm glad you've taken on "the task" of learning how the "Touch of Inside" game is played, Chrippa. It's something you MUST experience and now I "real eyes" it's impossible to understand or conceptualize unless you experience it for your self.

For me it's like trying {and I AM trying} to explain to someone what the ocean's like, when they've never been there. Until you see the ocean, experience it and put your foot in it, it's difficult to truly understand its power and significance.

I wish I could spend an hour with each one of you that wants to learn this because I could demonstate to you the shots you need to see and make learing much easier. If you see{the shots} in "real life" it will look like some of them aren't possible. Again, you must practice them and see for yourself. Once you do understand it will open up a "hidden game," one that has been there all along, if you have "eyes" that can see it. ;)

Yes, when you commit to playing the "Touch of Inside" on your shots the game changes because instead of looking for the "correct" shot (that the table shows), you look for the correct shot for your "Touch of Inside Game."

It literally becomes a different game for you because you are able to master a shot that does produce "staighter," more natural angles. And without the outside spin being a factor, the cue ball doesn't "get away" from you anymore and you can hit the cue ball firmer.

I believe there's a finite number of players that will know this type game exists. The interesting thing is I could write hundreds of pages and even show the T.O.I. in person and would still make NO DIFFERENCE unless the person is ready, and puts forth the effort on a personal level . If this doesn't make sense, please "put it on a shelf," and come back to it later. :wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
the downside to "that game" is it can never be mastered!

Pay Up Sucker said:
Where do you draw the line with this touch of inside CJ, half ball hit? I think it becomes risky after that, what do you think?
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I do it on every shot....it's something you can master. I don't know if any of us have time to master "all the shots," however, we can master one.
The TOI game is about eliminating unnecessary choices and just doing the same thing over and over.

I will warn you, it's kinda boring, running out every time. It's actually more exciting to play the type of game that changes every shot. There's nothing like spinning, slow rolling, shooting hard, shooting easy, etc., and the downside to "that game" is it can never be mastered!

It's a decision you just have to make. ;) 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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I also just don't see it as a great cue ball moving technique but i do see it as a controlling cue ball technique. what do you think? I told you in the past, i see you trying to make your game simplistic and repeatable and you said no lol :)
 
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I have been using the "touch of inside" in practice. Today I actually got out a couple times shooting every ball that way. I'm going to have to keep using it on every ball until I get used to the patterns it causes me to use.
A side note.. Have you ever noticed Archer cuing to the inside? Even on his break
 
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