mike segal

[JB Cases]

I think Mike Sigel is one of the best things that ever happened to pool.
....and Efren would agree.
AZ has over 40,000 members and even more non-member regular viewers.
By my calculations, 99.83% of these readers are fine people and would
love to see Mike post on here....and Mike is known to perform well under
pressure, a lot more than that small minority can put him under.
So if you see Mike, Lyn, show him this post and the following clip...:smile:
https://www.google.com/url?url=http...+a+man&usg=AFQjCNEnXYiSmNqcGLbriJqf_1pXa50B1w

The problem is that the other .17% would be more than enough to drive Mike away within a few days.

Mike could not handle it here. This is not a forum that tolerates the type of personality that Mike has. He does have a lot to offer but I guarantee you he would not last a week. Not a week and I might give out odds on the money on that.

What I honestly wish could happen is if AZB would implement the same type of thing Jim Brennan does with the Ask the Cue maker section on his site. What happens there is that a thread is opened for questions and then the cue maker will come in and answer all the questions and then the thread will be closed. It would be great if this were done here with professional players, a moderated question/answer session that's protected from harassment.

What AZB would end up with would be a really great section with lots of great content straight from the pros themselves. We would get our fix and the trouble makers could be censored out so that what remains is good quality information that is timeless.

 

[JAM]

The problem is that the other .17% would be more than enough to drive Mike away within a few days.

Mike could not handle it here. This is not a forum that tolerates the type of personality that Mike has. He does have a lot to offer but I guarantee you he would not last a week. Not a week and I might give out odds on the money on that.

What I honestly wish could happen is if AZB would implement the same type of thing Jim Brennan does with the Ask the Cue maker section on his site. What happens there is that a thread is opened for questions and then the cue maker will come in and answer all the questions and then the thread will be closed. It would be great if this were done here with professional players, a moderated question/answer session that's protected from harassment.

What AZB would end up with would be a really great section with lots of great content straight from the pros themselves. We would get our fix and the trouble makers could be censored out so that what remains is good quality information that is timeless.

That is actually a great idea. :smile:

 

[Neil]

The problem is that the other .17% would be more than enough to drive Mike away within a few days.

Mike could not handle it here. This is not a forum that tolerates the type of personality that Mike has. He does have a lot to offer but I guarantee you he would not last a week. Not a week and I might give out odds on the money on that.

What I honestly wish could happen is if AZB would implement the same type of thing Jim Brennan does with the Ask the Cue maker section on his site. What happens there is that a thread is opened for questions and then the cue maker will come in and answer all the questions and then the thread will be closed. It would be great if this were done here with professional players, a moderated question/answer session that's protected from harassment.

What AZB would end up with would be a really great section with lots of great content straight from the pros themselves. We would get our fix and the trouble makers could be censored out so that what remains is good quality information that is timeless.

In other words, you just want to be able to "rub elbows" with the pros. You don't really care if the info they give out is correct or not, you just want to hear them speak. Maybe you could start an online fan club for some of them, since you don't seem to want a discussion forum.

 

[JAM]

In other words, you just want to be able to "rub elbows" with the pros. You don't really care if the info they give out is correct or not, you just want to hear them speak. Maybe you could start an online fan club for some of them, since you don't seem to want a discussion forum.

Neil, I think what John was saying is that they could post for a short duration and then the thread would close. This would prohibit the unidentified trolls and banned members posting from adding their 2 cents.

Truth be told, Neil, I believe that just because a pool player or pro player is good at what they do, it does not mean they can teach what they do. That's a different skill set.

Look at Keith's side-arm stroke. Well, it works for him, but if somebody were learning from scratch, this would not be a fundamental to teach. One should learn the basic fundamentals on how to address a ball, stance, stroke, aim, and the whole 9 yards.

Because this forum has erupted into a playground for a few bad apples who like to hit-and-run with their mean-spirited posts, John's idea holds merit.

But bottom line is just because a player is a so-called pro, it doesn't mean he can disseminate proper instruction to all. What works for some may not work for others. Pool is such an individual skill set. Once you acquire the mechanical skills, the rest is the power of positive thinking. It's a complicated sport for sure!

 

[whitewolf]

I agree PT, Sigel is one of a very few all around greatest pool players, and as we know he played super JAM up for the money!

This reminds me of what Barry Berhman had to say about Sigel in this 2012 US Open.

Barry was talking it up in the introduction of Efren as the best pool player on the planet. Efren was sitting stoically in his chair, apparently ignoring all of this BS being spouted. Barry told of Houston in 1985 when Efren offered Mike Sigel the 7 ball, and that after Mike refused Efren turned to one of his buddies and said in his native tongue: "I just wanted to make that big baby cry." Barry, laughing his a$$ off, turned to Efren to elicit a smile, but Efren was just looking off into the stars, completely ignoring this fool.

I haven't decided whether or not to tell Mike this, as I am sure he has heard this a million times.

 

[whitewolf]

What I honestly wish could happen is if AZB would implement the same type of thing Jim Brennan does with the Ask the Cue maker section on his site. What happens there is that a thread is opened for questions and then the cue maker will come in and answer all the questions and then the thread will be closed. It would be great if this were done here with professional players, a moderated question/answer session that's protected from harassment.

What AZB would end up with would be a really great section with lots of great content straight from the pros themselves. We would get our fix and the trouble makers could be censored out so that what remains is good quality information that is timeless.

Fortunately, right now I can ask Mike any pool questions I want to as he is stationed in the Frederick Champions. Then, having posted what he said a few times on this forum, the AZ responses are typically so idiotic that I don't bother to post them any more.

After the way AZ treats professional pool players, it doesn't even deserve this 'great section' you are talking about. And go ask yourself, why do pros want to even bother posting stuff on here for free (with a few exceptions) when they should be getting paid for lessons?

JB, you are living in a dream world buddy.

 

[JB Cases]

In other words, you just want to be able to "rub elbows" with the pros. You don't really care if the info they give out is correct or not, you just want to hear them speak. Maybe you could start an online fan club for some of them, since you don't seem to want a discussion forum.

Yes, kind of like when you go to lecture. You are there to hear the speaker speak and answer questions, not to get into a debate with him. If you disagree that strongly with anything that is said then simply start a thread to discuss the topic.

But no, the idea is not to rub elbows, it's to have a simple question and answer session without hostility.

For what it's worth Neil I personally have gotten to rub elbows with professional players for the past twenty years. I am not some starry eyed groupie as you seem to want to make me out to be. But what I do know with 100% accuracy is that the professional players have experiences and insights that regular players don't have. I honestly don't care how good you are you are not a Mike Sigel, not a Buddy Hall and not a CJ Wiley. You might be able to draw your ball with the best of them but you did not run around the country snapping off pro events, you did not gamble for days against the best in the world, you haven't been heralded as the best player in the country and the world for a day, or a week or a year. They have. For that reason alone they have earned the right to be treated with some respect and allowed to speak unmolested about how to play pool.

If they are wrong such as when Sigel claims throw doesn't exist then you don't NEED to confront him about it right then. Just start a new thread and discuss it. But in the Q&A you could make that your question. Such as for example, Mr. Sigel in the 1998 September issue of Billiards Digest you claimed that throw does not exist. It's been proven that it does but perhaps you could clarify for us what you meant by your statement?

And see what he says. Maybe the answer might surprise you.

 

[pt109]

Look at Keith's side-arm stroke. Well, it works for him, but if somebody were learning from scratch, this would not be a fundamental to teach. One should learn the basic fundamentals on how to address a ball, stance, stroke, aim, and the whole 9 yards.

Well....here's a unusual situation, I'm gonna stick up for Keith against Jam.

The proof of any style is how one delivers the cue to the cue-ball.
When people tell me how unorthodox Keith is ( there were lots more in
history) I tell them to watch the cue between the bridge hand and the
cue-ball. That area tells you everything you need to know about how well
a player hits a ball.
It does not matter how you make that happen.

Keith would be a good teacher....he's got empathy...that's the main
reason people like to see him in action.
There are many that would rather watch Keith miscue than some clone
ran a rack out.

We have many mutual friends, but I've never even talked to Keith....
...so I think I have a pretty good objective appraisal.

 

[cardiac kid]

Well....here's a unusual situation, I'm gonna stick up for Keith against Jam.

The proof of any style is how one delivers the cue to the cue-ball.
When people tell me how unorthodox Keith is ( there were lots more in
history) I tell them to watch the cue between the bridge hand and the
cue-ball. That area tells you everything you need to know about how well
a player hits a ball.
It does not matter how you make that happen.

Keith would be a good teacher....he's got empathy...that's the main
reason people like to see him in action.
There are many that would rather watch Keith miscue than some clone
ran a rack out.

We have many mutual friends, but I've never even talked to Keith....
...so I think I have a pretty good objective appraisal.

PT,

Interesting observation. The difference in stroke between Keith, Mike and Allen Hopkins is as wide as possible in the pool world. Yet all three are some of the best players ever. I've tried to make that point for years. You hit it right on the head! Thanks.

Lyn

 

[pt109]

PT,

Interesting observation. The difference in stroke between Keith, Mike and Allen Hopkins is as wide as possible in the pool world. Yet all three are some of the best players ever. I've tried to make that point for years. You hit it right on the head! Thanks.

Lyn

You know the ones that mess me up, Lyn?
...players like Butamante...his stroke looks like he's trying to shake
something off his cue, it's crooked as hell.
I call them 'bees'....aerodynamically, it looks like a bee can't fly....
...but it flies very well.

And Francisco Bustamante is a very good player.

 

[JAM]

Well....here's a unusual situation, I'm gonna stick up for Keith against Jam.

The proof of any style is how one delivers the cue to the cue-ball.
When people tell me how unorthodox Keith is ( there were lots more in
history) I tell them to watch the cue between the bridge hand and the
cue-ball. That area tells you everything you need to know about how well
a player hits a ball.
It does not matter how you make that happen.

Keith would be a good teacher....he's got empathy...that's the main
reason people like to see him in action.
There are many that would rather watch Keith miscue than some clone
ran a rack out.

We have many mutual friends, but I've never even talked to Keith....
...so I think I have a pretty good objective appraisal.

That is interesting for sure. You know, the owner of Black Boar Cues, Tony, told Keith one time that he had a "double fulcrum" stroke. He said Efren had it too. I wonder if the players who have the double fulcrum in their stroke succeed.

Can you explain that one?

 

[pt109]

That is interesting for sure. You know, the owner of Black Boar Cues, Tony, told Keith one time that he had a "double fulcrum" stroke. He said Efren had it too. I wonder if the players who have the double fulcrum in their stroke succeed.

Can you explain that one?

To me, JAM, what your arm and wrist and fingers, et al, doesn't matter.
I think that any good player, regardless of his approach, does the same
thing when in dead stroke.
If you're AWARE of your arm or stance, you're gonna play under your
capability.....dead stroke is hitting the cue-ball with the CUE...your
BODY is subservient to this action.

It sounds like a Zen riddle, but I've had this in my notes since a teenager..
...a great stroke is like a tail wagging a dog...

 

[Neil]

Yes, kind of like when you go to lecture. You are there to hear the speaker speak and answer questions, not to get into a debate with him. If you disagree that strongly with anything that is said then simply start a thread to discuss the topic.

But no, the idea is not to rub elbows, it's to have a simple question and answer session without hostility.

For what it's worth Neil I personally have gotten to rub elbows with professional players for the past twenty years. I am not some starry eyed groupie as you seem to want to make me out to be. But what I do know with 100% accuracy is that the professional players have experiences and insights that regular players don't have. I honestly don't care how good you are you are not a Mike Sigel, not a Buddy Hall and not a CJ Wiley. You might be able to draw your ball with the best of them but you did not run around the country snapping off pro events, you did not gamble for days against the best in the world, you haven't been heralded as the best player in the country and the world for a day, or a week or a year. They have. For that reason alone they have earned the right to be treated with some respect and allowed to speak unmolested about how to play pool.

If they are wrong such as when Sigel claims throw doesn't exist then you don't NEED to confront him about it right then. Just start a new thread and discuss it. But in the Q&A you could make that your question. Such as for example, Mr. Sigel in the 1998 September issue of Billiards Digest you claimed that throw does not exist. It's been proven that it does but perhaps you could clarify for us what you meant by your statement?

And see what he says. Maybe the answer might surprise you.

The problem, John, is that this is not a "lecture" place, it is a forum. Now, let's use your example of Sigel saying there is no throw. Sigel started the thread, so people will naturally read it to see what he has to say. He obviously said something totally wrong, and your contention is to let it go. Thereby, many that don't know better themselves will forever be saying that there is no throw, just because Mike said it. If one were to start another thread about the subject, odds are it might not even be read by many that read Mike's thread because the person is a "nobody". So, the problem persists. However, if it is addressed right away in the discussion forum, then it can be addressed by both "sides" for the benefit of everyone reading the thread.

In any case, you already have the section you want. It's called "ask the pro's". Go look at it and see how much traffic it gets.

One more thing John, you say they have earned the respect because they have played at the top. I disagree. They have earned the respect as players, and that is all. Just because they can play great, does not necessarily equate to being able to explain to others what they are doing, and how you can do it too. Teaching and playing are as far removed from each other as making a lot of money playing pool, and having enough sense to know what to do with that money. Would you go to , oh, just for example that everyone can understand, let's say Cliff Joyner for financial advice? He sure knew how to make money playing pool. To me, it's the same thing.

 

[JAM]

...In any case, you already have the section you want. It's called "ask the pro's". Go look at it and see how much traffic it gets.

Ain't that the truth! :embarrassed2:

 

[JB Cases]

The problem, John, is that this is not a "lecture" place, it is a forum. Now, let's use your example of Sigel saying there is no throw. Sigel started the thread, so people will naturally read it to see what he has to say. He obviously said something totally wrong, and your contention is to let it go. Thereby, many that don't know better themselves will forever be saying that there is no throw, just because Mike said it. If one were to start another thread about the subject, odds are it might not even be read by many that read Mike's thread because the person is a "nobody". So, the problem persists. However, if it is addressed right away in the discussion forum, then it can be addressed by both "sides" for the benefit of everyone reading the thread.

In any case, you already have the section you want. It's called "ask the pro's". Go look at it and see how much traffic it gets.

Ok Neil, you are fully entitled to think what you want. And you obviously have already figured out what readers will think and do in any given situation. For me I think people won't read Sigel's view on throw and say ok that's it, done with the forum I have the answer now. I tend to think that they would read it and perhaps go looking a little more, maybe find some discussions and generally learn about throw.

Did I say my contention is to let anything go? I said, and I should not have to repeat this, that you should start a NEW thread to discuss ANYTHING you disagree with. Title it "Mike Sigel is WRONG" if you want and discuss to your heart's content. But IN the question/answer session you ask, he answers, that's that. This format works PERFECTLY in other venues and other forums.

I am fully aware of the current the ask the pros section. I think it needs to converted to the style I proposed and then I believe it would get a ton of traffic. As well the threads would all be informative and entertaining and numerous.

Then any pros who WANTED to hang out afterwards and become more active members could do that for as long as they could stand it. I am NOT saying that pros have free reign to be impolite. I am saying that they at least deserve some measure of respect for their status and at least deserve to be approached with civility. Let them be the ones to ruin it and not us.

 

[justadub]

Ok Neil, you are fully entitled to think what you want. And you obviously have already figured out what readers will think and do in any given situation. For me I think people won't read Sigel's view on throw and say ok that's it, done with the forum I have the answer now. I tend to think that they would read it and perhaps go looking a little more, maybe find some discussions and generally learn about throw.

Did I say my contention is to let anything go? I said, and I should not have to repeat this, that you should start a NEW thread to discuss ANYTHING you disagree with. Title it "Mike Sigel is WRONG" if you want and discuss to your heart's content. But IN the question/answer session you ask, he answers, that's that. This format works PERFECTLY in other venues and other forums.

I am fully aware of the current the ask the pros section. I think it needs to converted to the style I proposed and then I believe it would get a ton of traffic. As well the threads would all be informative and entertaining and numerous.

Then any pros who WANTED to hang out afterwards and become more active members could do that for as long as they could stand it. I am NOT saying that pros have free reign to be impolite. I am saying that they at least deserve some measure of respect for their status and at least deserve to be approached with civility. Let them be the ones to ruin it and not us.

John, I think what you propose is an OUTSTANDING idea! :clapping::clapping:

It would be great to have a way to interact with these folks, in an environment where they dont have to brave facing the foolishness that undoubtedly would follow. I mean, why would any of them bother taking the time to hang out here, the way they would be treated? Certainly the offenders would be a very small percentage of the greater AZB population, but sadly they would be enough to drive many folks away. Sigh.

And you're right, perhaps some of them might enjoy it enough to participate in the open, general forum.

I hope you propose this to ownership. If they want to gauge support for such a sub-forum, just let us know.

 

[pt109]

The problem, John, is that this is not a "lecture" place, it is a forum. Now, let's use your example of Sigel saying there is no throw. Sigel started the thread, so people will naturally read it to see what he has to say. He obviously said something totally wrong, and your contention is to let it go. Thereby, many that don't know better themselves will forever be saying that there is no throw, just because Mike said it. If one were to start another thread about the subject, odds are it might not even be read by many that read Mike's thread because the person is a "nobody". So, the problem persists. However, if it is addressed right away in the discussion forum, then it can be addressed by both "sides" for the benefit of everyone reading the thread.

In any case, you already have the section you want. It's called "ask the pro's". Go look at it and see how much traffic it gets.

I like this post.
AZ is a great place for SHARING ideas...'INFALLIBILITY' is not accepted.
...and players, no matter how good they play, can learn something here.
That's a reason some coaches can make a living...they may have a point
of view that the one hitting the ball can't possibly have.

..and to JB..
Pontificating by a top player may result in a very narrow point of view.
A good discussion is 'examination by argument'.

Let AZ be fertile ground....sure' there's going to be lots of crap.....
...fertilizer, natural or chemical, looks and smells disgusting....but
beautiful flowers and nutritious foods grow from this.
...sure there are weeds also, that's up to each poster to stay on top of.
(don't tell JAM that I ended a sentence with a preposition)

 

[JB Cases]

Fortunately, right now I can ask Mike any pool questions I want to as he is stationed in the Frederick Champions. Then, having posted what he said a few times on this forum, the AZ responses are typically so idiotic that I don't bother to post them any more.

After the way AZ treats professional pool players, it doesn't even deserve this 'great section' you are talking about. And go ask yourself, why do pros want to even bother posting stuff on here for free (with a few exceptions) when they should be getting paid for lessons?

JB, you are living in a dream world buddy.

It's a time honored sales technique to give away a little bit for free to whet the appetite. Many instructors here use this technique often and it pays off for them.

I do agree with those who say that any professional pool player who is looking to improve their visibility should participate with the fans. And in fact a lot of the pros do participate on Facebook and not here. With FB they can self-moderate and simply cut off anyone who gets out of line. Here they are at the mercy of the mods and we all know how that goes sometimes.

Yes, I do live part time in a dream world. I'd like to be able to move there full time.

 

[JB Cases]

I like this post.
AZ is a great place for SHARING ideas...'INFALLIBILITY' is not accepted.
...and players, no matter how good they play, can learn something here.
That's a reason some coaches can make a living...they may have a point
of view that the one hitting the ball can't possibly have.

..and to JB..
Pontificating by a top player may result in a very narrow point of view.
A good discussion is 'examination by argument'.

Let AZ be fertile ground....sure' there's going to be lots of crap.....
...fertilizer, natural or chemical, looks and smells disgusting....but
beautiful flowers and nutritious foods grow from this.
...sure there are weeds also, that's up to each poster to stay on top of.
(don't tell JAM that I ended a sentence with a preposition)

AZ IS a fertile ground. Just look at the amount of BS that is regularly spread around

Ok let me prove to you that this works.

Remember a couple months ago when Justin had a few pros on TAR and he asked for questions to be sent in so he could ask them during the podcast?

What happened?

Questions were sent in, Justin asked them, the pros answered and EVERYONE enjoyed it. What else happened?

Some of the answers the pros gave in some of the podcasts resulted in EPIC discussions on AZB.

 

[pt109]

I would really dig it if he joined. He has been one of my favorite players for a long time.

Maybe I overreacted, I don't know. The thread seems to have collected some negative vibes about the man...and that bugs me I guess.




.

It's all good, Doc....it's a pleasure to have you posting on AZ.
...you can not only play....
.....you probably have more degrees than a thermometer.
I always read your posts