Do tight pockets make you stroke differently?

[Neil]

Heaps 'O opinion coming......you've been warned.

Excessively tight pockets like those pictured in this thread are just plain silly.

Within a reasonable variance , pockets are supposed to be a certain size. On the snug side of 'normal' ? Sure. But you should be able to shoot all 3 parts of a pocket and effectively doing so likely requires more precision than mearly hitting the middle of 4"+ target.

I don't see how limiting your options , power levels and your creativity makes you a better player.

I don't see how a piece of equipment forcing you to 'focus' makes you a better player.

I think it just sounds good to be able to brag about how tight your table is as though it somehow reflects on you in some positive way.

But I don't buy it.

Flame ON !!!!!

After playing on my table for several years now, I would say it doesn't limit my options at all. Where I can't hit the rail a diamond up from the pocket and make it, I now can play a safe that wouldn't have been safe otherwise.

As far as powerlevels, hasn't changed. Creativity, hasn't changed. Focus, yes, it makes you focus better on what you are doing. You can't just hit in the general direction of the pocket and make it. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. Bragging rights??? Are you serious there?? Brag about what? It has NOTHING to do with bragging. If it did, and I cared about that sort of thing, my pockets would be 2 1/2", not 4 1/8".

Why do I like the smaller pockets? Precisely because it does make you focus more. They make you pay attention to precisely where you are hitting the ob and the cb. They teach you how to properly control the cb for position. They don't let you get away with sloppiness which only breeds more sloppiness. They make you play more precisely, which in turn makes you a better player and more consistent player.

 

[RRfireblade]

Why do I like the smaller pockets? Precisely because it does make you focus more. They make you pay attention to precisely where you are hitting the ob and the cb. They teach you how to properly control the cb for position. They don't let you get away with sloppiness which only breeds more sloppiness. They make you play more precisely, which in turn makes you a better player and more consistent player.

We can differ on the 'options' aspect , to me there's no possible way that less pocket and rail interaction equals the same amount of possible variations but that's fine to disagree.... it's just personal perspective.

Really my point is that that kind of focus should come from within. You should always have it, it shouldn't be thrust upon you because you happen to be playing on non standard equipment.

Sounds like a cop out to internal , self motivated dedication honestly. Lazy almost.

 

[Neil]

We can differ on the 'options' aspect , to me there's no possible way that less pocket and rail interaction equals the same amount of possible variations but that's fine to disagree.... it's just personal perspective.

Really my point is that that kind of focus should come from within. You should always have it, it shouldn't be thrust upon you because you happen to be playing on non standard equipment.

Sounds like a cop out to internal , self motivated dedication honestly. Lazy almost.

Could be. But, it gets the job done.:wink:

 

[RRfireblade]

That's really the bottom line , isn't it always?

 

[Mikjary]

I've got a 9 footer with 4" pockets that plays pretty tight. I still stroke 90 miles an hour if I need to and never think about it. Tight tables are only good for practice, not for competition. 4 1/2" pockets are plenty tight for gambling or tourneys.

Recently, I started using CJ's touch of inside technique and noticed my rail shots pocket better. I hit most shots firm and rattle a lot less of them.

Best,
Mike

 

[bdorman]

Nope, just more frequently.

 

[poolhustler]

A 4" pocket still has 1 3/4" in which you can cheat the pocket depending on the angle.

On a tight table, you can not be lazy. You must focus and concentrate on every shot.

There are no easy ones!!!

 

[Masayoshi]

On very tight tables, I like to hit lower on the cue ball with a little bit of spin so I can stroke with more speed and rhythm without getting as much speed on the cue ball or object ball. It works pretty well and gets you away from that punchy scared stroke which WILL screw you over when you are under pressure.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I always focus on a smooth and fluid stroke, and when cheating the pocket(although you usually don't have much to cheat), precision and focus are paramount. I think it pushes me to a more pure precise style of play and away from being sloppy or lackadaisical, which makes me play better.

Ditto!

But I'm never really sloopy or lackadaisical, just a bit less focused.

 

[backplaying]

A 4" pocket still has 1 3/4" in which you can cheat the pocket depending on the angle.

On a tight table, you can not be lazy. You must focus and concentrate on every shot.

There are no easy ones!!!

Thats only if the ball is sitting in the right spot. If its anywhere around the rail there is no cheating the pocket. No one is going to cheat 4" pocket anyway unless its hanging by the hole, or on the internet.

 

[backplaying]

Playing some on a triple shimmed gold crown. Myself and all the other average players here stroke differently on this table. Almost a punchy scared stroke.

www.jbcases.com

John, I know you are a good player, but have you tried to shorten the distance of your bridge hand to the cueball? Try it if you haven't.

 

[Majic]

My simple answer is yes and no to the original question.


yes if your stroke has flaws to begin with. the tight pockets can help improve your stroke if you give it time and make the adjustments necessary.

no if your stroke is straight

 

[JB Cases]

Thats only if the ball is sitting in the right spot. If its anywhere around the rail there is no cheating the pocket. No one is going to cheat 4" pocket anyway unless its hanging by the hole, or on the internet.

This is my point. Tight pockets cut off a lot of the possibilities for shots near the rail. If you watch Efren play he uses the rails A LOT to get position.

Last night I played a decent player and both of us were dogging four foot shots close to the rail. We would hit shots that SHOULD go in. The only way to make them was to use pocket speed and a cinch stroke. It's brutal when you feel like you can hit the ball really good but it still hangs up.

I just think that SOME tables with tight pockets don't really play right. There ought to be some sort of standard that says if a ball gets x-deep into a pocket then it should go. So perhaps that means tighten the points but increasing the angles or something so that you still have to be more accurate but that the shots you hit properly will go.

I guess it's kind of hard to explain but when you are facing a shot and you KNOW that there is only really ONE way you can shoot it to have any chance to make the ball then it does take the fun out it. I like to play where for most shots I feel that I should be able to put any spin and shoot with any speed and have a better than 50% chance to make the ball. With pockets like what I played on last night, for me, it's really a huge adjustment in the game. To the point where the game itself is different. To the point where instead of shooting the simple runout pattern I will play safe instead of shooting a four foot nearly straight in shot because I feel that I can't make the ball AND play shape. So instead I bunt the object ball safe. To me that's not really pool as I like to enjoy it.

 

[Neil]

This is my point. Tight pockets cut off a lot of the possibilities for shots near the rail. If you watch Efren play he uses the rails A LOT to get position.

Last night I played a decent player and both of us were dogging four foot shots close to the rail. We would hit shots that SHOULD go in. The only way to make them was to use pocket speed and a cinch stroke. It's brutal when you feel like you can hit the ball really good but it still hangs up.

I just think that SOME tables with tight pockets don't really play right. There ought to be some sort of standard that says if a ball gets x-deep into a pocket then it should go. So perhaps that means tighten the points but increasing the angles or something so that you still have to be more accurate but that the shots you hit properly will go.

I guess it's kind of hard to explain but when you are facing a shot and you KNOW that there is only really ONE way you can shoot it to have any chance to make the ball then it does take the fun out it. I like to play where for most shots I feel that I should be able to put any spin and shoot with any speed and have a better than 50% chance to make the ball. With pockets like what I played on last night, for me, it's really a huge adjustment in the game. To the point where the game itself is different. To the point where instead of shooting the simple runout pattern I will play safe instead of shooting a four foot nearly straight in shot because I feel that I can't make the ball AND play shape. So instead I bunt the object ball safe. To me that's not really pool as I like to enjoy it.

John, next time you get on that table by yourself, set up some shots and start firing them in. Odds are, that after 5-6 shots, you will get one to stay in. If that one will stay in, then you now know it is possible. Now you just have to train yourself to be more accurate in how you hit those balls. Pretty soon, you won't have a problem with them so much.

Now, with that said, I have seen pockets done so poorly that you couldn't even make the cb stay in the pocket with any speed. If that's the case, then talk to the owner to get it fixed by some other mechanic.

 

[JB Cases]

My simple answer is yes and no to the original question.


yes if your stroke has flaws to begin with. the tight pockets can help improve your stroke if you give it time and make the adjustments necessary.

no if your stroke is straight

I disagree. I have seen a lot of good players with laser strokes choking up on this table and playing all shots with a cinch stroke which is what led to my asking the question. I mean I know what I am doing and so I started to observe the other players and I noticed the same thing.

These are guys I gamble with a couple times a week and they are runout players. Get them on the tight table and they can still run out but not in the same way. Their patterns tighten up considerably.

Does anyone have a link to a thread about tightening pockets a while back? Specifically I want to know if anyone has made their own pocket reducers. I was thinking today of trying to make some out of leather. I do absolutely agree with having tight pockets to improve accuracy and at the risk of starting ww3 I do want to say that the "alternative" aiming methods work fine on tight pockets as well so it's not that. Aside from the physical limitations that are present when the pockets are tighter the bigger issue is the psychological one to force yourself to work within what you have and keep the stroke fluid rather than resorting to a cinch stroke all the time.

IMO of course. FWIW I will tame that damn table because I hate to lose because of my own shortcomings. The same guy I lost to last night I had beaten the last two times we played on other tables. I simply missed too many shots down the rail.

 

[Majic]

I disagree. I have seen a lot of good players with laser strokes choking up on this table and playing all shots with a cinch stroke which is what led to my asking the question. I mean I know what I am doing and so I started to observe the other players and I noticed the same thing.

These are guys I gamble with a couple times a week and they are runout players. Get them on the tight table and they can still run out but not in the same way. Their patterns tighten up considerably.

Does anyone have a link to a thread about tightening pockets a while back? Specifically I want to know if anyone has made their own pocket reducers. I was thinking today of trying to make some out of leather. I do absolutely agree with having tight pockets to improve accuracy and at the risk of starting ww3 I do want to say that the "alternative" aiming methods work fine on tight pockets as well so it's not that. Aside from the physical limitations that are present when the pockets are tighter the bigger issue is the psychological one to force yourself to work within what you have and keep the stroke fluid rather than resorting to a cinch stroke all the time.

IMO of course. FWIW I will tame that damn table because I hate to lose because of my own shortcomings. The same guy I lost to last night I had beaten the last two times we played on other tables. I simply missed too many shots down the rail.

I practice on a table with 4.25 pockets and have little trouble. Going down the rail can be tough if you hit the ball hard, but this game is not meant to played hitting the ball hard. Getting proper position is critical along with accuracy. My cheeks don't tighten up when I see small pockets.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

You have to know how to hit it

My biggest problem is balls down the rail. I can't stand it when I KNOW I made a ball and it jaws out. I finally got frustrated with missing shots down the rail and quit the third set. I need to spend a couple hours to get used to the table before I try to gamble on it.

Also something that irritates me with shimmed tables is that sometimes the pockets are not all the same size. That's the case with this table. One corner is noticeably tighter than the others. Just totally gets in my head.

You will need to do an experiment to understand what I am talking about.
If you already know this, my apologies.

Take a stripe ball, and pretend you just shot down the rail to the corner.
Just stand next to the pocket and shove the ball down the rail with your hand to see the pocket drop.
Now I want you to spin the ball with your fingers while shoving it down the rail, and the spin I want you to use is to simulate the object ball having running English.
Then after a few times of doing that, do the opposite spin so that the object ball has non running English as it hits the pocket.

If you have trouble doing it with your fingers, just use a cue and shoot object balls down the rail with both running and non running English.
I just like using the fingers cause that way you can stand right over the hole and see what the English is doing.
Unless the pocket is retarded, the running English will cause the ball to hang up more, and the non running English when it hits the pocket should cause the ball to suck into the hole.

Hopefully, you see what I am talking about.
So now, when you shoot shots down the rail, you want to use English on the cue ball, that will put non running English on the object ball.
Typically, for all shots where the cue ball isn't on the rail, this is inside English.
By doing this, you will find that you can rifle balls down the rail a lot harder then normal on most tables, and still have the ball fall instead of hang up.
It can only help on tight tables.

To answer the original question, no, my stroke doesn't change.
I bear down more, but my stroke stays the same.

 

[JuicyGirl]

OMG I did that over the weekend. I'd never seen this before. Needless to say, I slammed it and scratched :-( lesson learned.
Next

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express

 

[JB Cases]

I practice on a table with 4.25 pockets and have little trouble. Going down the rail can be tough if you hit the ball hard, but this game is not meant to played hitting the ball hard. Getting proper position is critical along with accuracy. My cheeks don't tighten up when I see small pockets.

Who said anything about hitting them hard? I understand what you are saying but we can stack it to the ceiling and bet on your percentages getting shape on a variety of shots on a tight pocket table vs. a looser one.

I am not saying that YOUR stroke changes. I am saying that I know for a fact that people around me who are bonafide runout players use a different stroke when playing the tight table.

And again if it were only me then I wouldn't say a word. I only mentioned it because of seeing the other players changing their stroke. I contend that it's NOT all about accuracy. In my opinion it's also about confidence and being willing and able to adjust to the flat out fact that a lot of position shots are simply not available with tight pockets.

I don't have a percentage but there is 100% a number of shots that, and by shots I mean where the object ball is made and the cue ball goes to the right position, that are simply NOT there on tight tables. I am more than willing to be proven wrong but the make/shape percentages are way lower on tight tables.

This reminds me of the debate years ago about which table is better to give weight on, tight pockets or loose ones. The pros who weighed in favored loose ones because they felt that loose pockets allowed them much more room to get loose and in stroke and freewheel whereas tight pockets allowed for more balls to be hung up and easier safeties against them.

And my cheeks do pucker on tight tables only because I have to adjust my game so much. But if I spent a couple days on one then I am sure I would be fine even if I wasn't able to do as much.

 

[Majic]

Who said anything about hitting them hard? I understand what you are saying but we can stack it to the ceiling and bet on your percentages getting shape on a variety of shots on a tight pocket table vs. a looser one.

I am not saying that YOUR stroke changes. I am saying that I know for a fact that people around me who are bonafide runout players use a different stroke when playing the tight table.

And again if it were only me then I wouldn't say a word. I only mentioned it because of seeing the other players changing their stroke. I contend that it's NOT all about accuracy. In my opinion it's also about confidence and being willing and able to adjust to the flat out fact that a lot of position shots are simply not available with tight pockets.

I don't have a percentage but there is 100% a number of shots that, and by shots I mean where the object ball is made and the cue ball goes to the right position, that are simply NOT there on tight tables. I am more than willing to be proven wrong but the make/shape percentages are way lower on tight tables.

This reminds me of the debate years ago about which table is better to give weight on, tight pockets or loose ones. The pros who weighed in favored loose ones because they felt that loose pockets allowed them much more room to get loose and in stroke and freewheel whereas tight pockets allowed for more balls to be hung up and easier safeties against them.

And my cheeks do pucker on tight tables only because I have to adjust my game so much. But if I spent a couple days on one then I am sure I would be fine even if I wasn't able to do as much.

I know what you are saying...........the pocket angels could be a hindrance and your confidence is probably affected from the balls being thrown out.