Do tight pockets make you stroke differently?

I got a news flash for all you tight pocket aficionados....

It's not illegal to be accurate on a loose table......
..and you'll learn more about cue-ball control....
...and run-out patterns.

I think the best safety players and the best position players come from
pool tables, not snooker tables.
Snooker players are too busy trying to make a ball.....
...and anybody can play safe on a tight table.
 
backplaying said:
Thats only if the ball is sitting in the right spot. If its anywhere around the rail there is no cheating the pocket. No one is going to cheat 4" pocket anyway unless its hanging by the hole, or on the internet.
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Just curious how you cheat a 4" pocket on the Internet??
 
JB Cases said:
I disagree. I have seen a lot of good players with laser strokes choking up on this table and playing all shots with a cinch stroke which is what led to my asking the question. I mean I know what I am doing and so I started to observe the other players and I noticed the same thing.

These are guys I gamble with a couple times a week and they are runout players. Get them on the tight table and they can still run out but not in the same way. Their patterns tighten up considerably.

Does anyone have a link to a thread about tightening pockets a while back? Specifically I want to know if anyone has made their own pocket reducers. I was thinking today of trying to make some out of leather. I do absolutely agree with having tight pockets to improve accuracy and at the risk of starting ww3 I do want to say that the "alternative" aiming methods work fine on tight pockets as well so it's not that. Aside from the physical limitations that are present when the pockets are tighter the bigger issue is the psychological one to force yourself to work within what you have and keep the stroke fluid rather than resorting to a cinch stroke all the time.

IMO of course. FWIW I will tame that damn table because I hate to lose because of my own shortcomings. The same guy I lost to last night I had beaten the last two times we played on other tables. I simply missed too many shots down the rail.
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JB, Sounds like the table is jacked and doesn't play right. If that's the case, don't sweat it.

Move on..........
 
I hate playing on tight pocket tables. I can practice on one, but not to have fun on one.

I recently found a room with bucket pockets. Haven't had this much fun on the table in a while. Not so apprehensive about letting the stroke out as much.
 
Anyone complaining about banging balls down the rails of a pool table should try banging the balls down the cushions of a snooker table or English pool table.

Timing and technique is all.
 
pt109 said:
We agree about tight tables...I think they even hurt your game.
They create negative and un-adventurous methods of playing.
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I don't enjoy playing on tables this tight. I'm a just above average player and I like to strike the cue ball with a nice firm stroke on most shots and my accuracy isn't dead on on every shot so I need at least 4 1/2" pockets to enjoy the game. When you get down to 4" pockets I worry more about the ball going in than the proper stroke to get position for the next ball and then I end up struggling with position! I play pool because I enjoy playing and when the equipment is very tough it's just not fun for me.

James
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I never understood the obsession with tight pockets and bigger tables that many americans seem to have. You should play some snooker and get it out of your system;) I love to play snooker but it's a different game to pool and after a while I always go back to pool. I like to spin the ball and occationally shot a table-length drawshot close to the rail.

I understand the value of practise on a tight table, but for playing I think it gets boring. Unless your stroke is absolutely perfect it only tends to remove options in your shot selection and tighten up your stroke. 4,5"-41/4" is plenty tight for playing. Sub 4" just removes shot options. For a while I played on 5" pockets and bought a product named "practise pro pocket reducers" to make it tougher. They made the pocket 3,5" and playing an absolute nightmare. I still use them for set-up practise shots and I feel they help me understand why I miss, but playing with them is just too frustrating.
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I would rather play someone on tight pockets where the skill comes into play more. I've watched guys hit just past the side pocket on the long rail and the ball still goes in the hole in the corner! Big pockets and soft rails make it where you can miss by 3 1/2 diamonds and still make it. That's no fun for me. When I lose, I want it to be because the other guy was better than me. Not because the pocket is essentially 9" wide and he is just slow rolling everything in the general direction of the pocket. There's a few guys here that on some tables I will only play them even. But on a tight table I will give them the 7 and still win.
 
Practicing on an Olhausen with 5" buckets almost ruined my game. I switched to tight pockets and my game slowly improved.

I think regular practice on tight tables, properly cut and within reason, are important for a good player to become an excellent player. It takes the slopiness out of the game. After 8 years of owning tables with true 4" pockets, they just seem like any other pool table to me. It's can be frustrating at first, but they reveal the bad habits players develop that cause inaccuracy.

To play well on a tight table, a player must learn how to make angle without cheating pockets. It forces a player to pay more attention to detail like small angles and position routes. It took several years for me to break the habit of cheating pockets.

Does it change your stroke or basic shot selection? It definitely should not.

By the way, a properly aimed rail shot should drop at any speed. If it doesn't, then the table is not right and it will be bad for your game to play on a table like this. Then you will have to baby the ball - that's not the way it's supposed to be.
 

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Yep, absolutely. I use the "cinch stroke" on tight pockets. Not on every ball, not from less than 4 feet, but on longer shots for sure.

I used to think it was just a horrible beginner's habit that comes from poor fundamentals, but in one of his videos John Schmidt talks about using a "make stroke" or "cinch stroke", something like that, when you get in a bad position and now you just want to make the ball.

Basically you trade power for accuracy by moving the bridge hand a little closer and shortening the backswing to reduce stroking errors. This is also when the pause really jumps out here and helps me.
 
OK, so I had my table recovered and shimmed by some hack in The Dallas/e.texas area named Larry Dyer. The pockets were tight at 4-4.25 but the pocket angle was completely screwed up, as were the facings and it wouldn't always take a properly hit ball.

So, I had to buy new rail rubbers again and pay someone to do it right AGAIN. Now I have 4.25 pockets that WILL, I repeat, WILL take a ball up the rail and almost any speed with any english, if you hit it right. SO, a properly shimmed table is a good thing, the problem is that it seems most mechanics just shim the pocket and give the pocket angle no consideration and then it wont take balls that were hit good, and thats frustrating

For me, my table helps me be more serious and focused when I pratice because if I just get up there and start banging balls, it's get ugly and no fun in a hurry.

So when I jump on a table with "normal" sized pockets, its easier to me. That's the long and short of it for me.
 
JB Cases said:
Who said anything about hitting them hard? I understand what you are saying but we can stack it to the ceiling and bet on your percentages getting shape on a variety of shots on a tight pocket table vs. a looser one.

I am not saying that YOUR stroke changes. I am saying that I know for a fact that people around me who are bonafide runout players use a different stroke when playing the tight table.

And again if it were only me then I wouldn't say a word. I only mentioned it because of seeing the other players changing their stroke. I contend that it's NOT all about accuracy. In my opinion it's also about confidence and being willing and able to adjust to the flat out fact that a lot of position shots are simply not available with tight pockets.

I don't have a percentage but there is 100% a number of shots that, and by shots I mean where the object ball is made and the cue ball goes to the right position, that are simply NOT there on tight tables. I am more than willing to be proven wrong but the make/shape percentages are way lower on tight tables.

This reminds me of the debate years ago about which table is better to give weight on, tight pockets or loose ones. The pros who weighed in favored loose ones because they felt that loose pockets allowed them much more room to get loose and in stroke and freewheel whereas tight pockets allowed for more balls to be hung up and easier safeties against them.

And my cheeks do pucker on tight tables only because I have to adjust my game so much. But if I spent a couple days on one then I am sure I would be fine even if I wasn't able to do as much.
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If you watched Johnny on the tar table playing Shane, he was trying to get as close to the next ball as possible. I have to get very close to the ball on super tight pockets to play well. Conyers, Ga had a tight 3 7/8" pocket table and Danny Smith ran out on it from everywhere. When I first hit some balls on that table I didn't think that type of play was possible, but was proved wrong. He didn't slow roll balls either, he fired them in.
 
pt109 said:
I got a news flash for all you tight pocket aficionados....

It's not illegal to be accurate on a loose table......
..and you'll learn more about cue-ball control....
...and run-out patterns.

I think the best safety players and the best position players come from
pool tables, not snooker tables.
Snooker players are too busy trying to make a ball.....
...and anybody can play safe on a tight table.
Click to expand...
W...T...F?

The best safety players come from pool, not snooker? Are you high?

Its easy to snooker someone on 1 ball, as in 9 ball. Even in 8 ball its easy to snooker someone on 7 balls. But to snooker someone on 10-15 balls is just a different level of safety play.

You clearly know little about snooker to make such bold statements. Making a century break is done by just concentrating on making balls? No. To make a century you have to have unbelievable CB control, a really solid stroke and unbelievable tekkers!

Try playing a top 9 ball pro, I'm sure you'd win a few games. Then try playing a top snooker pro, you wouldn't get close to winning a frame. Then come back and tell us who has the best safety and positional skills.
 
Pidge, playing devil's advocate for a second, I think what he's getting at is this...

In snooker, making a length of the table shot, or a bank, or a shot down the rail, is damned hard. We've seen some highlight videos where it happens but I think even high level players are not a favorite to make a ball while stuck to the head rail.

So while it's nice to snooker the other guy, you don't absolutely have to. Leaving them a length of the table shot that isn't near the hole is usually good enough because the odds of making such a shot are so slim.

In pool, the smaller table and bigger pockets means just leaving the opponent long is not good enough. Nor is it okay to leave a bank from the side rails... not at the pro level anyway. So a player is forced to actually hide the cue balls behind a ball, no matter what.
 
CreeDo said:
Pidge, playing devil's advocate for a second, I think what he's getting at is this...

In snooker, making a length of the table shot, or a bank, or a shot down the rail, is damned hard. We've seen some highlight videos where it happens but I think even high level players are not a favorite to make a ball while stuck to the head rail.

So while it's nice to snooker the other guy, you don't absolutely have to. Leaving them a length of the table shot that isn't near the hole is usually good enough because the odds of making such a shot are so slim.

In pool, the smaller table and bigger pockets means just leaving the opponent long is not good enough. Nor is it okay to leave a bank from the side rails... not at the pro level anyway. So a player is forced to actually hide the cue balls behind a ball, no matter what.
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I see what you're saying, but still! Anyone who has played snooker and pool seriously wouldn't make a statement so bold. I think the level of safety play or type of safety being played is dictated by the game being played. I'm sure the likes of SVB and Shaun Murphy would thrive in what ever billiards game they wanted had they chosen to play it as their primary game.

Now back to the original question; the tightest pockets I've played 9 ball on were on a Diamond table. I don't know the pocket size, but 2 balls wouldn't fit past the points. I wouldn't class them as 'tight', just 'tighter'. Didn't make it harder to make balls down the rail and I could cheat the pocket to some extent. Can't say my stroke changed either.
 
Pidge said:
W...T...F?

The best safety players come from pool, not snooker? Are you high?

Its easy to snooker someone on 1 ball, as in 9 ball. Even in 8 ball its easy to snooker someone on 7 balls. But to snooker someone on 10-15 balls is just a different level of safety play.

You clearly know little about snooker to make such bold statements. Making a century break is done by just concentrating on making balls? No. To make a century you have to have unbelievable CB control, a really solid stroke and unbelievable tekkers!

Try playing a top 9 ball pro, I'm sure you'd win a few games. Then try playing a top snooker pro, you wouldn't get close to winning a frame. Then come back and tell us who has the best safety and positional skills.
Click to expand...

Well, Pidge....I really want to keep this to words on a screen.
I feel words become even more important when they're from an anonymous
source.
So lets stick to the math.....
You should not compare games of 9-ball to games of snooker...but if you
play either game for 10 hours, the best player wins.

On tight tables, you can afford to miss, playing a ball in or playing a safe.
Often, they can't score in return...even high-level players.
Now, try messing up on a loose table...you most often lose.

I feel loose tables favor 'cue-ball control' and 'choice of shots'.
Tight tables favor accuracy much more.

I have always felt that luck is a greater influence on tight pockets.
 
Ok, that's what you believe and that's fair enough.

On the other hand, you brought up the comparison. I think you can afford to be sloppy with position on a loose table. For one its hard to miss. Secondly, you can use english to gain position if you run out of position because there is less chance of missing a ball shot with english.

This is all besides the point. I have yet to play on an American style pocket billiards table that I've thought "hmm, this table is too tight". Its hard to have a tight table with pointed rails...the pockets would have to be really small for me to class it as tight. It takes real skill to hit a shot just off the rail into the 2nd diamond and still pocket it! "cheating the pocket at its finest", right...? I think you'll find that is luck and god awful aim.
 
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