Certified instructors

No its not about the money.

randyg said:
336robin.

I understand now, it's all about the money.

Have a fine Holiday Season,
randyg
Click to expand...

No what its about apparently is you guys keeping it up there where you are and making it your Exclusive Club. I see you really dont want to share your toys with anyone else and it really not about what is best for Pool. At this point Im not sure what its about. In fact I really dont want to be an Instructor in a system where people Twist what I say when my intent is really good and that should have been plain to everyone that read my post but......I understand your stance very well. I guess I was totally wrong in that another opinion would openly be considered as a viable idea. Im glad you guys are swamped with customers and you dont need to consider the opinions of other people who are concerned with the sport.

If you read what I wrote you will plainly see that yes it is about the fact that in my area it would be near impossible to recoup the investment of the Certified Instructor in probably 4 yrs. That isnt a great return on your investment in anyones book.

Its much easier to Sick the Dogs on me, Twist what I say and run off to sit ontop of the Instructor Throne. Im certainly cognizant of the method youre employing to deal with me. The best way Ive found for dealing with people who play games is not to play them. I was just checking and found out that you have no exclusive lease on anything so the only thing that you have is your name.

You guys have interests to protect its very clear. I guess your credential is worth a lot. It was worth enough to make it hard enough to get to the top so that others would really have to pay some Super Dues to get through it. Once you get through it to Master...yeah thats when the big bucks come in, cant be sharing all that glory now right? So I do not find it surprising you guys act this way. I actually thought I might have a chance at some adult discourse until tactics became the way to deal with me.

Thankyou so much for this entertaining education.

A guy comes along with a question we can't really answer...ok shoot him...now what were we going to do?

Its not about the money....Its about the value.

Badges? Yeah we don't need no Stinking Badges!

So what is it you sell again? Education.....yeah you just gave me one.

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
Last edited:
SUPPLY AND DEMAND. That will set the rate of exchange. This is the American way, and I am all for it. If the price being asked is too high for the services you seek you won't buy, or you will go elsewhere for those services, or you will build your own business which provides these services at a price you feel are more reasonable.
 
When I was about to open my psychology practice I attended a workshop by a highly recognized psych who offered workshops on how to run a practice. Among the things he taught me (and there were many things I had not considered at that point) was the idea of higher fees for service.

Ar first I was offended, my profession is not about the money, though we tend to make a good living, He pointed out that raising your fees ten percent above the competition had several benefits !

1. People think that you must be better than others or your fees would not be higher.
2. Higher fees screen out litigation prone clients, people who are an aggravation and looking for a reason to sue.
3. Higher fees is a way to insure the potential patient (client) is committed to the process.

When people would ask me to cut my rates I would refuse and refer them to another practitioner or to the public mental health service. You get what you pay for and my patients always received far more than they paid for but I did not tell them that.

Lastly, the people who could not afford my services would often refer their more financially stable friends and relatives to my practice.

All in all it worked out quite well. I was never sued and I never had to refer a patient to a bill collector. Of course only I knew that my patients were receiving top of the line services. For instance, all of my patients knew to call me at any time of the day or night because problems are often best dealt with when the patient was in the middle of the problem. However, I did not tell patients that until after they had committed to my services. I also provided “house calls” as needed. The "50 minute hour" in my practice was more like 90 minutes and often "as long as needed" until the crisis passed. When I calculated my hourly rate I was actually charging less than my colleagues but only my committed patients knew that, if they cared to figure it out.

I think there is a lot of truth to the idea that “you get what you pay for.”

I know that one of the side effects of my higher fees was that I was much more aware of the idea that I had to provide the best services I was capable of providing.

So there is something to be said for higher fees. I did it for over 30 years. I never had any serious complaints and always had more patients than I could handle.

Buying "goods" is one thing. Buying "services" is another and it all depends on what you are seeking.

BTW the one thing I have learned to avoid is people who charge higher fees because they have some sort of name recognition. Well known people are all too often only concerned for their own image and the money they can make. It is not true in all cases but it is far too often true and I would rather buy their book than attend their workshop.
 
Last edited:
Robin,
I want to ask you, how do you know the BCA/PBIA does not have a high number of persons seeking certification from their organization? How do you know they are not happy with the numbers they are generating within their program? Why is it important to you that the BCA change their policies to suit your needs?

If you wish to teach, teach. Build your own reputation within your circles as a qualifed instructor and go for it. At that point you will have no need of an organization with which you obviously have issues.

Your personal experience indicating a lack of certified instructors within your area is hardly a suficient sampling to come to any accurate conclusion. I haven't a clue what the numbers are and I really don't care. It isn't any of my business.

I was certified in 1995 by Jerry B. and I never bothered to renew. I chose not to renew not because of the cost involved, or because of any reservations that the lessons to be learned by the BCA were not valuable, they are most definitely worth learning, but because I had built a reputation on my own which I believe does not require confirmation from sources other than the positive references of my satisfied students. The certification by the BCA I feel is just one more reference I appreciate having in my resume.

If you are a good instructor and you believe in yourself, then you can do the same thing. The BCA/PBIA will not stand in your way.

Tom
 
JoeW...This is an excellent post, and can be directly related to teaching pool. While achieving a certain level of certification is no indicator of proficiency (playing or teaching), it is relevant to those instructors who truly wish to "provide the best possible learning experience" to their students. The responsibility of the highest level of certification (Master) is to train new instructors...to which there is a great need. Currently we have about 250+ certified instructors to serve about 10,000,000 avid poolplayers...just in the USA. Not all ten million will seek instruction, and some of them don't need it (and others don't know they need it). That said, there could easily be 5x as many teachers, and still not enough. The PBIA has determined what is a fair price, both for students coming to school, or for instructors wishing to become certified or upgraded. Like TRW said, it's not about the money...it's about having the desire to seek out knowledge and become better teachers.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

JoeW said:
When I was about to open my psychology practice I attended a workshop by a highly recognized psych who offered workshops on how to run a practice. Among the things he taught me (and there were many things I had not considered at that point) was the idea of higher fees for service.

Ar first I was offended, my profession is not about the money, though we tend to make a good living, He pointed out that raising your fees ten percent above the competition had several benefits !

1. People think that you must be better than others or your fees would not be higher.
2. Higher fees screen out litigation prone clients, people who are an aggravation and looking for a reason to sue.
3. Higher fees is a way to insure the potential patient (client) is committed to the process.

When people would ask me to cut my rates I would refuse and refer them to another practitioner or to the public mental health service. You get what you pay for and my patients always received far more than they paid for but I did not tell them that.

Lastly, the people who could not afford my services would often refer their more financially stable friends and relatives to my practice.

All in all it worked out quite well. I was never sued and I never had to refer a patient to a bill collector. Of course only I knew that my patients were receiving top of the line services. For instance, all of my patients knew to call me at any time of the day or night because problems are often best dealt with when the patient was in the middle of the problem. However, I did not tell patients that until after they had committed to my services. I also provided “house calls” as needed. The "50 minute hour" in my practice was more like 90 minutes and often "as long as needed" until the crisis passed. When I calculated my hourly rate I was actually charging less than my colleagues but only my committed patients knew that, if they cared to figure it out.

I think there is a lot of truth to the idea that “you get what you pay for.”

I know that one of the side effects of my higher fees was that I was much more aware of the idea that I had to provide the best services I was capable of providing.

So there is something to be said for higher fees. I did it for over 30 years. I never had any serious complaints and always had more patients than I could handle.

Buying "goods" is one thing. Buying "services" is another and it all depends on what you are seeking.

BTW the one thing I have learned to avoid is people who charge higher fees because they have some sort of name recognition. Well known people are all too often only concerned for their own image and the money they can make. It is not true in all cases but it is far too often true and I would rather buy their book than attend their workshop.
Click to expand...
 
Viewpoint

TRWpool said:
Robin,
I want to ask you, how do you know the BCA/PBIA does not have a high number of persons seeking certification from their organization? How do you know they are not happy with the numbers they are generating within their program? Why is it important to you that the BCA change their policies to suit your needs?

If you wish to teach, teach. Build your own reputation within your circles as a qualifed instructor and go for it. At that point you will have no need of an organization with which you obviously have issues.

Your personal experience indicating a lack of certified instructors within your area is hardly a suficient sampling to come to any accurate conclusion. I haven't a clue what the numbers are and I really don't care. It isn't any of my business.

I was certified in 1995 by Jerry B. and I never bothered to renew. I chose not to renew not because of the cost involved, or because of any reservations that the lessons to be learned by the BCA were not valuable, they are most definitely worth learning, but because I had built a reputation on my own which I believe does not require confirmation from sources other than the positive references of my satisfied students. The certification by the BCA I feel is just one more reference I appreciate having in my resume.

If you are a good instructor and you believe in yourself, then you can do the same thing. The BCA/PBIA will not stand in your way.

Tom
Click to expand...

Tom,
In my immediate area I know of No One offering billiard instruction. Its not my immediate interest to teach due to my schedule at this time. I am however as my posts reveal concerned about the state of Pool. I have looked fairly indepth at Trade Show Promotion among several other things Pool including the development of a detailed plan to run tournaments in a Modified Round Robin format. At the time I was working on learning the tournament format I had to write a fairly large document in order to make plans on how to deal with things that can occur due to odd numbers of players, differing numbers of tables and estimated finish time calculations. What held my interest was the attitude of players when I talked about the format. I saw it as a way to make Pool fun again and more often than not the players could have cared less about getting to play more, it was more about the money being offered as potential prizes. So this being the audience that I knew I didnt want to work for...In fact I really have no desire to commit to running a pool tour but would run a quarterly, bi annual or yearly events I was more interested in things that concerned promotion of the sport. As I looked at who was promoting the sport I am finding right now that this industry may have some individualized efforts but concerted corporate effort of any note because, I havent picked up anything out in the public realm that said anything Pool about it. I have not looked under every rock at this time but my search continues somewhat as I decide what I intend to do for pool promotion in my retirement. Pool is something fun for me and I do believe I have the understanding that one needs to be able to make it fun. So as I delve into my project to determine what kind of promotional enterprise might be worth undertaking I decided it might be nice to obtain a BCA certification in order to enhance what Im getting ready to do, should I go forward with it. I have always had a very high regard for the BCA but I found the price tag on the certification high enough that I couldnt see it bringing my investment back. In fact I dont see how anyone would get their investment back but Im sure some do. Perhaps it isnt all about the money but every rock I seem to turn up in pool is about the money. From the player to Wholesalers and their complaints about the state of the falling numbers of players in the sport. I know a few of those. Some of which I have been friends with a long time discussing several promotional projects which might have market changing potential. The major complaint is the falling numbers of New Players. I think this is the major concern and to me its a bigger issue than making money. Sustaining our numbers, grassroots efforts and the long term development of players are the kinds of things that interest me. I viewed the price of Certified Instruction Certification as being a piece that might be something in the way of growth and that is why I expressed my views.I hope this lets you know enough information concerning why I chose to make the comments I did. I would like to do some instruction and as things have shaken out now I would do so on my own. I really wanted to get a value for my money, a return on my investment and give something back to the sport if I could and I have always had a high regard for the BCA. Im sure they would like to make money as well and I didnt view their fees as too high but the price of Certified Instruction were a bit pricey when I looked at the market that we have here where I live. That is about all I know to tell you at this point. Its not a personal attack but an observation I have made from the point of being a consumer. I do not know if the schools are getting enough numbers and I never said they were or were not. What I have commented about was that the market should set the price. I even said if I the program was satisfied with the numbers they were getting then....thats the end of it. My opinion means nothing. I have other interests to devote my time to. If I am interested in providing instruction I will simply print out some materials and make sure I can teach and perform everything in the syllabus.

336Robin...Robin Kelly
 
Robin
i mean no disrespect
but
paragaphs in your post and maybe a normal font size
might make it easier to read and get your message across
this is constructive
not meant to be antagonistic
:smile:
 
bbb said:
Robin
i mean no disrespect
but
paragaphs in your post and maybe a normal font size
might make it easier to read and get your message across
this is constructive
not meant to be antagonistic
:smile:
Click to expand...

bbb,
Thankyou no harm no foul. I think I might do just that. :thumbup: I've said about as much about the Instructor thing I think as one can say. I hope my intent is clear but I wonder about it. I meant no harm. I was only giving my opinion based on how I feel nothing more. I think I love pool as much as the next guy. I dont like seeing rooms close and I remember the days when pool rooms seemed to be in every town. I would like to see it again only better.

336Robin
 
336Robin said:
bbb,
Thankyou no harm no foul. I think I might do just that. :thumbup: I've said about as much about the Instructor thing I think as one can say. I hope my intent is clear but I wonder about it. I meant no harm. I was only giving my opinion based on how I feel nothing more. I think I love pool as much as the next guy. I dont like seeing rooms close and I remember the days when pool rooms seemed to be in every town. I would like to see it again only better.

336Robin
Click to expand...

As we all did as well, and very nicely and professionally I believe. Heck, I told you to go it alone and just teach and forget about the certification...

But for some reason, you really want the certification, but just don't want to pay for it..... that is fine, just not very reasonable imho.

But good luck in all your endeavors, and shoot straight :)
 
ChicagoRJ said:
As we all did as well, and very nicely and professionally I believe. Heck, I told you to go it alone and just teach and forget about the certification...

But for some reason, you really want the certification, but just don't want to pay for it..... that is fine, just not very reasonable imho.

But good luck in all your endeavors, and shoot straight :)
Click to expand...

ChiagoRJ,
Not that price, I dont see the value in it for me. Thats a personal decision I can live with. Id like to support the BCA but if their program doesnt offer what I want at a price I am willing to pay then Im sure I can figure out other arrangements. That is the point of all the posts. We all must meet the litmus test of the market. Tournament Directors, Trade Show Promoters, Billiard Wholesalers and also Pool School Instructors, there must be balance and harmony between the product and the price.

Thankyou for your well wishes. Happy Holidays :thumbup:

Robin
 
It is very expensive especially if you live in a less populated area. I chose not to do it for that reason. I love to teach, but it just did not seem like the cost would out weigh the benefits. I have wondered if the program is at the right price point. If the cost was a little lower you might have greater participation, more promotion of the sport, and still a higher level of funds to operate the PBIA.
 
In some countries it is brutally expensive.
I started once- but then was caused by healthy issues to stop first. Made long time thoughts about it if i go on.
Usually you don t need someone who lays his hand on your shoulder and say: Yes, now you can!.

But who rates what s worth or not?- there are a handfull guys i would really like/lvoe to spend some days with, just to learn from them -and would pay em for sure. Because i know that would be hell of a knowledge treasure.

Everyone should rate for himself what s expensive and what s not expensive :-)
 
To 336ROBIN


Check out the ACS. Their cost is minimal. Should work well for you.

Thanks
randyg
 
Certification

Wow, what a great discussion. I started into teaching when I went to the Georgia Billiard Academy for lessons. I took a few lessons and quickly learned that my knowledge of the game was very high compared with an instructor. I started a partnership where I helped teach in exchange for table time. This really helped my knowledge of teaching. I've been teaching for about 2 1/2 years now and I am yet to go through any sort of certification.

Going through 1 on 1 training for 3 days for over $1,000 might seem reasonable (about $40 an hour). But when 2 instructors put 6 people through the same course that equates to $125 an hour for each instructor which is insane - to make $3000 in a weekend - even with travel expenses that is a lot of money!

Then after certification process you log how many hours of training. Once you put in so many hours you are eligible to move up to the next level of instructor? I heard an instructor racked up all the hours that they estimate should take a year - and this guy did it in a few months. So what does BCA say - Send us $$$$$ and we will move you to the next level (this is without any verification of teaching skills or the BCA doing anything on their part other than recognizing he's at the next level). Something seems wrong here, or is it just me?

I am fine with not being certified. If I do a lesson with a client and they are not happy - I am willing to give them their money back (which has not happened in the entire 2 1/2 years). I will continue to build a reputation for myself and continue teaching.
 
RWOJO said:
Wow, what a great discussion. I started into teaching when I went to the Georgia Billiard Academy for lessons. I took a few lessons and quickly learned that my knowledge of the game was very high compared with an instructor. I started a partnership where I helped teach in exchange for table time. This really helped my knowledge of teaching. I've been teaching for about 2 1/2 years now and I am yet to go through any sort of certification.

Going through 1 on 1 training for 3 days for over $1,000 might seem reasonable (about $40 an hour). But when 2 instructors put 6 people through the same course that equates to $125 an hour for each instructor which is insane - to make $3000 in a weekend - even with travel expenses that is a lot of money!

Then after certification process you log how many hours of training. Once you put in so many hours you are eligible to move up to the next level of instructor? I heard an instructor racked up all the hours that they estimate should take a year - and this guy did it in a few months. So what does BCA say - Send us $$$$$ and we will move you to the next level (this is without any verification of teaching skills or the BCA doing anything on their part other than recognizing he's at the next level). Something seems wrong here, or is it just me?

I am fine with not being certified. If I do a lesson with a client and they are not happy - I am willing to give them their money back (which has not happened in the entire 2 1/2 years). I will continue to build a reputation for myself and continue teaching.
Click to expand...



Nope, it's just you. No matter how many hours a Instructor "racks up", they still have to attend an up-grade program.

randyg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top