Zero X System

Are you saying Tor or Efren or Busty or any adavanced player that is perfectly capable should not use a method that is very natural & effective for them?


I think the way of applying spin to ball really depends on the shot and the desired location for the cb.
I dont think what PJ is saying is all true.(but he could be rite)
If one hit one tip off center or one hit one tip off center and wiped his cue in the same direction which one would create more spin.?

I do a lot of spinning and some shots require a certain approach to them for me to be successful.
Mite just be me though.lol I tend to do things the hard way.
 
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I think the way of applying spin to ball really depends on the shot and the desired location for the cb.
I dont think what PJ is saying is all true.(but he could be rite)
If one hit one tip off center or one hit one tip off center and wiped his cue in the same direction which one would create more spin.?

I don't think there is any wiping action though. The final stroke goes straight through in this case. This is different then the wiping action that Buddy used to teach.
 
A good technique would be more "natural & effective", even for a pro. More importantly, developing players shouldn't follow this bad advice just because a pro gives it. We already see too much of that here.

pj
chgo

Hmmm, like what? What Pro has given bad advice on how to play on AZ?
 
I don't think there is any wiping action though. The final stroke goes straight through in this case. This is different then the wiping action that Buddy used to teach.


Im kinda rambling about PJ quote.

(No. Some wrongly think you can get more spin that way, but it's a myth (there are lots of myths in pool).

Im just thinking people learn and become successful with different ways of doing things.
 
Im kinda rambling about PJ quote.

(No. Some wrongly think you can get more spin that way, but it's a myth (there are lots of myths in pool).

Im just thinking people learn and become successful with different ways of doing things.


You are right about that. There is more than one way to play this game and play it well.

That was my point about the english being determined subconsciously. I too determine the amount of english subconsciously but I differ from Tor's method because I dont use bhe. I was taught this way by none other than Jack Hynes years ago and I have played this way every since. The point is... if I try to determine the exact point I want to contact I am not as accurate with my cue ball control as if I just picture where I want the cue to go and then drop down, feel the shot, and shoot. Once I'm down I can feel when I am off and I never consciously look to see how much english I am using, I just trust that I will hit it right and most of the time I do. If I am off it's not by much and this method is a whole lot more accurate for me.

I believe that Danny and Busta are doing the same with their application of bhe. They get a picture in their head and then trust they will hit the right spot on the cue ball to execute, then they shoot.

However, I have also known lots of good players who determine exactly how much english they are going to apply and once they line up some of them even make sure that the cue ball is the last thing they look at so that they can hit the ball precisely where they want to. Rodney morris plays this way. I have tried to do it that way but it does not feel right to me. I can judge a whole lot better if I leave it to my subconscious and in my mind I believe they are overcomplicating things but I would never say they are wrong though because obviously they play great with that method.

Both methods work imo.
 
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Im kinda rambling about PJ quote.

(No. Some wrongly think you can get more spin that way, but it's a myth (there are lots of myths in pool).

Im just thinking people learn and become successful with different ways of doing things.

I know where you're coming from, but as you said earlier sometimes it is about the specific shot. Certain techniques can get slightly different or more easily obtained results. Some say that developing players basically should not follow the advice of advanced players like the pros. I do not understand such statements. Whose advice should a developing player follow, the advice of mediocre C or B- players? How is one going to develope if one never ventures out past the realm of mediocrity. Who knows what developing player is capable of what & which one is not.

For me, a swiping stroke can put a significant amount of spin on the ball with not much forward momentum. Some say the same can be obtained with a more conventional stroke. I would agree, but, to me, I can get the desired result more easily & consistently with the swiping stroke. Do I use a swiping stroke for all english? No, obviosly not, but for some shots. yes I do.

Some believe there is at times too much 'pro' advice here & developing players show not follow it. I find that there is too much discouragement here that could be holding developing players back, for what reason I am not sure. I have some ideas that I feel are better not voiced here.

My point is where does it stop for a developing player & who should decide that but the player him or her self?

I say develope or stay where you are. It's your choice & no one elses.

Respectfully,
 
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I also happen to think it all comes down to getting to the table and trying things out. Nothing is permanent. So what if someone actually does give some bad advice? What's the worst that could possibly happen?

Someone goes to the table and tries it and it doesn't work.

I mean I personally think it's a bit silly to second guess a professional player who is telling you what they think is the right way to play if you yourself are not a pro player. Now, we do of course occasionally get conflicts like John Schmidt saying that aiming is all feel and systems are nonsense in contrast to guys like Shane Van Boening who says that he uses an aiming system. So who to believe? Well both.

Because the developing player can choose to try it John's way or Shane's way or anything in between.

The whole point of being in development means that it's a work in progress. There is no time limit, no expiration date, this is a lifelong sport that you can continue to improve your skills until the day you can't stand at the table any more.

No amateur player has all the answers on how to play pool. I am a hack, Pat Johnson is a hack, Lou F. is a hack, most of us are hacks compared to bonafide professional players and even hacks compared to bonafide shortstops. Sorry but that is the COLD HARD reality of it. Some of us on this forum are legitimately great players who do have a decent chance to beat a pro once in a while. But most of us aren't that good and given our circumstances can't possibly devote the effort and time to getting that good.

So why don't we simply appreciate this game for what it is. It's a magical journey to make balls disappear and control the universe between the rails. That's what it all comes down to for most of us, we aren't on a career path in pool. We simply want to be able to shine during those times when we have time to play. Stop worrying so much about the "developing" players, almost all of us are developing players and we haven't been hurt yet.
 
Well said Mr.Barton & I agree.

You sell cue cases & are in competiton with others that sell cue cases.:wink:

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
 
I also happen to think it all comes down to getting to the table and trying things out. Nothing is permanent. So what if someone actually does give some bad advice? What's the worst that could possibly happen?

Someone goes to the table and tries it and it doesn't work.

I mean I personally think it's a bit silly to second guess a professional player who is telling you what they think is the right way to play if you yourself are not a pro player. Now, we do of course occasionally get conflicts like John Schmidt saying that aiming is all feel and systems are nonsense in contrast to guys like Shane Van Boening who says that he uses an aiming system. So who to believe? Well both.

Because the developing player can choose to try it John's way or Shane's way or anything in between.

The whole point of being in development means that it's a work in progress. There is no time limit, no expiration date, this is a lifelong sport that you can continue to improve your skills until the day you can't stand at the table any more.

No amateur player has all the answers on how to play pool. I am a hack, Pat Johnson is a hack, Lou F. is a hack, most of us are hacks compared to bonafide professional players and even hacks compared to bonafide shortstops. Sorry but that is the COLD HARD reality of it. Some of us on this forum are legitimately great players who do have a decent chance to beat a pro once in a while. But most of us aren't that good and given our circumstances can't possibly devote the effort and time to getting that good.

So why don't we simply appreciate this game for what it is. It's a magical journey to make balls disappear and control the universe between the rails. That's what it all comes down to for most of us, we aren't on a career path in pool. We simply want to be able to shine during those times when we have time to play. Stop worrying so much about the "developing" players, almost all of us are developing players and we haven't been hurt yet.


John, re-read the parts I put in blue. There you have your answer, but have been too shortsighted to even see it. You totally contradict yourself, and see no problem with it. Which is why you are still at the level you are.
 
You are right about that. There is more than one way to play this game and play it well.

Both methods work imo.

Mr. Satori,

I play very much the way that you do, trusting my subconscious.

I agree with your entire post, not just the quoted parts above.

Different strokes for different folks. What ever works for each individual. We are individuals.

Best Regards,
 
I use this bhe technique sometimes and it was explained correctly. Its benefits are that you use your normal pre shot routine/stroke/aim and also you can keep a rhythm going if you are that type of player that likes to get into a rhythm. Only difference is the last second swipe and there is nothing magical about it. It is like taking three separate movements and combining them into making one movement. Now I am careful of what type of shots or game I am in, when choosing to use this technique. Unless you have it mastered, you had better be careful and it is for the more advanced player. If there is decent money on the table I would not use this technique unless I am 99% sure I will make it.
 
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my conversation

A couple of things. 1: the free video from Tor is great. Thanks! I'll buy the kicking and banking one.. great value 2: CJ has given lots of great information on here. I've picked up a bunch of useful stuff. On the other hand i did ask Buddy the other day about TOI and BHE. TOI didn't make sense to him. His advice to me was to use center ball as much as possible. He said its much easier that way because you take one more step out of the shot. I think thats why Tors video was so great. Showed exactly what happens with center in a easy to understand format. Its also quite apparent Buddy doesn't need BHE to develop more english on shots...I've watched videos on banking also that suggest using english on near every shot. I've picked up a lot of those habits. Same advice from Buddy. Why adjust aiming lines for right or left english when you don't have too... I asked him about the banking advice during a game of one pocket we played. I was totally amazed when he shot 4 long rail banks during one game from different angles using center ball and every one hit exactly dead center of the pocket....sold me... It was sweet to see in person. BTW i won the game lucking the last ball in...
Lastly: sure, you see a lot of great players using a lot of different stuff. TOI, BHE, CTE hitting banks with inside to open up the pockets, etc etc the bottom line is a lot of this stuff doesn't work for everybody and just complicates things in your mind further. Personally, i love all the information out there and pick a little of each one that works the best for me and try to incorporate it into my game. But too much of it all can ruin your game. Try to keep it simple..
 
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Did you guys notice the guy was shooting with a house cue? That's why no one heard of him.... he's been hustling off the wall for the past 30 years;)

I played against Tor one time at a buddy's house here in LA. All I can remember from that 3 or 4 hours was that he just DID NOT miss and played great shape always.

Russ...
 
I just watched some of the kicking video and was wondering if you could also hit the object ball by using parallel shift from zero to the ball instead of trying another spot on the rail to aim for?

I will try this when I get to play some in a couple of days because it is too cold out right now, but I thought maybe someone will know the answer before I get a chance to try it out.
 
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John, re-read the parts I put in blue. There you have your answer, but have been too shortsighted to even see it. You totally contradict yourself, and see no problem with it. Which is why you are still at the level you are.

No Neil you totally misunderstand me.

The point is again, that pool playing is a HOBBY for 99.9% of us. We aren't on the path to become pros and if we are we are not on AZB trying to learn how to play.

But even so when a person reads anything about how to play or watches a video then they have to decide for themselves whether to try out these methods or not. You don't get to decide for them what they are ALLOWED to play around with or not.

You like aiming systems. John Schmidt does not. Who to believe?

You don't like CJ Wiley's advice (I am guessing because I didn't actually read your exchanges) - who to believe?

My point is that if you think something is bad advice then put it out there as to why. No one is stopping you. Pat does it, Lou does it, Bob does it. Then the readers can decide for themselves if they care to try the techniques advocated or not.

When I said that most people don't have a situation that allows for them to put forth the effort and time to get to pro level I wasn't saying that there is only a finite amount of technique that they have time for in their life.

You seem to think that there is a finite amount of time a person has to play pool and if they waste a single minute on what you consider to be bad advice they are then ruined forever as a player. I don't think that way. I think that when someone tells me something then I can take it to the table and afford to give it a good workout and if I don't get it then all I have done is to see for myself. Then I go back to what I was doing and life moves on with me being no better or worse as a player.

However IF that technique happens to open a few doors for me then I can continue to use it and refine it and be a better player for it. So there is ONLY upside to trying out whatever you are told to try by anyone willing to help you out.

I mean to be absolutely ridiculous someone could come on here and say that shooting all shots behind the back is the sure fire way to becoming a pro. It won't take anyone five minutes at the table to figure out that this is nonsense. And five minutes after that ten people will be on AZB saying that they tried it and it's nonsense. Case closed, shooting behind the back for all shots debunked as path to stardom.

You seem to forget the pure enjoyment of playing pool. Playing pool is a lifelong journey.

A few years ago I was at the BCA show and Mike Massey and Artie Bodendorfer and several other folks were standing around trading shots. They were each trying to one-up the other one with shots that the other one didn't know. It was delightful watching these two veterans having a ball enjoying the intricacies of the game that they discovered over a lifetime of playing.

That's what pool is about Neil. It's about getting on the table and figuring things out and sharing those things. Not about trading theory on forums until we are ready to kill each other.

As for me being at the level I am at the reason is because I decided when I was 21 that I didn't want to devote the time and effort needed to get as good as the guys who were that good. Had I chosen that path then I would most certainly be one of the pros you disagree with on AZB. As it is I am a hack who has had a lot of great experiences gambling, playing tournaments, and playing league in Germany and the USA. I have always been up there with the better players wherever I have gone, good enough to beat most but not good enough to beat the shortstops and pros.

Don't fool yourself into thinking I can't play and using that as a stepping stone to attack me. I can play but I am aware of my game and my current ability enough to know where I stand. I know enough to know I don't know everything but in my travels I have been incredibly fortunate to have experienced pool in a myriad of ways and alongside the world's best players.
 
No Neil you totally misunderstand me.

The point is again, that pool playing is a HOBBY for 99.9% of us. We aren't on the path to become pros and if we are we are not on AZB trying to learn how to play.

But even so when a person reads anything about how to play or watches a video then they have to decide for themselves whether to try out these methods or not. You don't get to decide for them what they are ALLOWED to play around with or not.

You like aiming systems. John Schmidt does not. Who to believe?

You don't like CJ Wiley's advice (I am guessing because I didn't actually read your exchanges) - who to believe?

My point is that if you think something is bad advice then put it out there as to why. No one is stopping you. Pat does it, Lou does it, Bob does it. Then the readers can decide for themselves if they care to try the techniques advocated or not.

When I said that most people don't have a situation that allows for them to put forth the effort and time to get to pro level I wasn't saying that there is only a finite amount of technique that they have time for in their life.

You seem to think that there is a finite amount of time a person has to play pool and if they waste a single minute on what you consider to be bad advice they are then ruined forever as a player. I don't think that way. I think that when someone tells me something then I can take it to the table and afford to give it a good workout and if I don't get it then all I have done is to see for myself. Then I go back to what I was doing and life moves on with me being no better or worse as a player.

However IF that technique happens to open a few doors for me then I can continue to use it and refine it and be a better player for it. So there is ONLY upside to trying out whatever you are told to try by anyone willing to help you out.

I mean to be absolutely ridiculous someone could come on here and say that shooting all shots behind the back is the sure fire way to becoming a pro. It won't take anyone five minutes at the table to figure out that this is nonsense. And five minutes after that ten people will be on AZB saying that they tried it and it's nonsense. Case closed, shooting behind the back for all shots debunked as path to stardom.

You seem to forget the pure enjoyment of playing pool. Playing pool is a lifelong journey.

A few years ago I was at the BCA show and Mike Massey and Artie Bodendorfer and several other folks were standing around trading shots. They were each trying to one-up the other one with shots that the other one didn't know. It was delightful watching these two veterans having a ball enjoying the intricacies of the game that they discovered over a lifetime of playing.

That's what pool is about Neil. It's about getting on the table and figuring things out and sharing those things. Not about trading theory on forums until we are ready to kill each other.

As for me being at the level I am at the reason is because I decided when I was 21 that I didn't want to devote the time and effort needed to get as good as the guys who were that good. Had I chosen that path then I would most certainly be one of the pros you disagree with on AZB. As it is I am a hack who has had a lot of great experiences gambling, playing tournaments, and playing league in Germany and the USA. I have always been up there with the better players wherever I have gone, good enough to beat most but not good enough to beat the shortstops and pros.

Don't fool yourself into thinking I can't play and using that as a stepping stone to attack me. I can play but I am aware of my game and my current ability enough to know where I stand. I know enough to know I don't know everything but in my travels I have been incredibly fortunate to have experienced pool in a myriad of ways and alongside the world's best players.

No point talking to you. You proved that with your last paragraph where you type out what you wanted me to say, although I never said it. You are only going to read what you want to read, and not what is actually written. Have fun with that.
 
What is parallel shift? I'm not up on too much of the technical lingo.

And from Zero, do you mean from the corner pocket being Zero?
 
What is parallel shift? I'm not up on too much of the technical lingo.

And from Zero, do you mean from the corner pocket being Zero?

Yes, I mean from the corner pocket being zero. Parallel shift would be where your cue is right over zero aiming toward the contact point on the rail. You then hold your cue in that same position and move parallel to where the ball is and the cue would then be pointing at the new contact point.

Like I said though, I don't know if this will work. It's just something I will try when I get to a table in a couple of days.
 
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