Zero X System

nobcitypool said:
I respectfully disagree. I will maintain the vast majority of professionals in any sport are savants. There is an intangible they possess others simply don't have. You may or may not have that natural talent John. If you don't, all the knowledge in the world and practicing 7/24 wouldn't get you to where you could consistently compete well with top professionals.
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This is obvious. If you have a mental or physical handicap, we can obviously entertain the idea that it would prevent you from attaining a professional level. That has never been the question.

The question is what percentage of the population has enough natural talent to become a professional pool player.

What percentage of the population has the natural talent to be an NBA center?

What percentage of the population has the natural talent to walk across their living room without falling?

Now we are getting at the real question. The question you posed has never been an issue. People are never using the proper context when they are discussing this issue.
 
JB Cases said:
Sounds like you are overgeneralizing. There has not been any indication that even 100 people on here feel that they could have reached pro level nor any indication that many ever even wanted to. In contrast many here speak about just wanting to play well enough to do well in their league or local events.

www.jbcases.com
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I was a really good shooter at 14. Could I have turned pro?..Maybe with lots of instruction and money. We were poor growing up. Food stamps don't buy many pool lessons. No desire to be a pro now at 44. I have a family, great job, and a lot of responsibility. I can't be gone on the road all the time. I was out of it for 10+ years and just getting back into it. I have a table at the house to practice on and I've taken lessons in an effort to improve my game because I know there are things I need to fix. I would like to keep up with the big boys here in Colorado. Will I ever play like Bill Meechum..maybe in another 5 years with constant practice :p I will take any little bit of instruction I can find. Tor's video taught me things I didn't know and I am thankful.
 
I didn't pose a question, I'm sorry you struggle with reading comprehension. You obviously missed my point but that seems to be a "natural talent" you have.




ChrisBanks said:
This is obvious. If you have a mental or physical handicap, we can obviously entertain the idea that it would prevent you from attaining a professional level. That has never been the question.

The question is what percentage of the population has enough natural talent to become a professional pool player.

What percentage of the population has the natural talent to be an NBA center?

What percentage of the population has the natural talent to walk across their living room without falling?

Now we are getting at the real question. The question you posed has never been an issue. People are never using the proper context when they are discussing this issue.
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ChrisBanks said:
This is obvious. If you have a mental or physical handicap, we can obviously entertain the idea that it would prevent you from attaining a professional level. That has never been the question.

The question is what percentage of the population has enough natural talent to become a professional pool player.

What percentage of the population has the natural talent to be an NBA center?

What percentage of the population has the natural talent to walk across their living room without falling?

Now we are getting at the real question. The question you posed has never been an issue. People are never using the proper context when they are discussing this issue.
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Chris,

If you or anyone else thinks that all 'pros' of all sports are all savants, you are sadly mistaken. Are some? Yes. All? Absolutely not. Sometimes it is even just a matter of luck & who one's parents knew that gets one an opportunity & the other not.

Jerry Rice is a good example. Is he blessed with foot speed? Obviously. Was he blessed with the ability to catch a football? No. He worked his tail off to became a good catcher of the football.

The world is filled with athletic over achievers & under achievers. Yes there are certain 'abilities' needed for certain sports or games. However there are ways to overcome certain deficiencies. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Compare Byron Nelson to Ben Hogan. Nelson was a natural. Hogan became an over achiever & arguably the greatest ball striker of all time through nothing but heart, determination, & hard work. Lots & lots of hard work.

Regards to All,
 
Really? By your logic then, why aren't you a pro after playing 46 years "successfully"? LMAO. Ben Hogan had incredible natural talent combined with an incredible work ethic. You think the only attribute for a wide receiver is foot speed? Please put me back on your published ignore list exhibiting what a complete attention grabbing moron you are. I'll keep you on my unpublished ignorant list.




ENGLISH! said:
Chris,

If you or anyone else thinks that all 'pros' of all sports are all savants, you are sadly mistaken. Are some? Yes. All? Absolutely not. Sometimes it is even just a matter of luck & who one's parents knew that gets one an opportunity & the other not.

Jerry Rice is a good example. Is he blessed with foot speed? Obviously. Was he blessed with the ability to catch a football? No. He worked his tail off to became a good catcher of the football.

The world is filled with athletic over achievers & under achievers. Yes there are certain 'abilities' needed for certain sports or games. However there are ways to overcome certain deficiencies. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Compare Byron Nelson to Ben Hogan. Nelson was a natural. Hogan became an over achiever & arguably the greatest ball striker of all time through nothing but heart, determination, & hard work. Lots & lots of hard work.

Regards to All,
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nobcitypool said:
Really? By your logic then, why aren't you a pro after playing 46 years "successfully"? LMAO. Ben Hogan had incredible natural talent combined with an incredible work ethic. You think the only attribute for a wide receiver is foot speed? Please put me back on your published ignore list exhibiting what a complete attention grabbing moron you are. I'll keep you on my unpublished ignorant list.
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Is senility setting in? You want it? You got it!

Clarification:

The 'You want it?' refers to nob asking me to be put him back on Ignore.

The 'You got it!' refers to the fact that I did put him back on Ignore until I changed my signature.

I just wanted this to be clear as apparently someone took it incorrectly.
 
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nobcitypool said:
So immature, so predictable. You win the Tool of the Year award, thanks for proving my point. Won't keep you from peeking though will it? LMAO
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Yes, I might peek from time to time, because according to you I'm 'immature' & 'ignorant'.

I'll let the general readership decide just who is immature, ignorant & should be ignored because I'm not the one that resorts to name calling for no good reason except for a difference of opinion. What a hypocrite you are!
 
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You're right. You're the tool that finds it necessary to post your ignore list in large red font and then really not ignore the people on your list. Really, just how pathetic is that?

General readership? LMAO! What, you running your own Internet popularity contest? I feel sorry for you dude, I really do.


ENGLISH! said:
Yes, I might peek from time to time, because according to you I'm 'immature' & 'ignorant'.

I'll let the general readership decide just who is immature, ignorant & should be ignored because I'm not the one doing the name calling for no good reason except for a difference of opinion.
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ENGLISH! said:
Chris,

If you or anyone else thinks that all 'pros' of all sports are all savants, you are sadly mistaken. Are some? Yes. All? Absolutely not. Sometimes it is even just a matter of luck & who one's parents knew that gets one an opportunity & the other not.

Jerry Rice is a good example. Is he blessed with foot speed? Obviously. Was he blessed with the ability to catch a football? No. He worked his tail off to became a good catcher of the football.

The world is filled with athletic over achievers & under achievers. Yes there are certain 'abilities' needed for certain sports or games. However there are ways to overcome certain deficiencies. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Compare Byron Nelson to Ben Hogan. Nelson was a natural. Hogan became an over achiever & arguably the greatest ball striker of all time through nothing but heart, determination, & hard work. Lots & lots of hard work.

Regards to All,
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The vast majority of pros have a natural ability to perform the tasks of their respective sport that is greater than the normal or even basically talented individual. When you take that and combine with drive, work ethic, and maybe some luck, you end up with a pro player. There are exceptions to every rule, but very few make it to the top levels without the natural talent needed to get their.
 
Post#189

Simply not worth my or anyone's time, effort, or attention. Hence, IGNORE!

But... I did remove everyone from the list in light of the Chrismas Spirit. I TRIED!
 
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Take anyone with an above average IQ, and make them practice (actual practice, not just shoot balls around) for 10 hours a day for 5 years, and they could hold their own against most players.

Every year the amount of talent in this sport is growing. It's not because more pool savants are being born.
 
You may want to ask the Moderators to check your Ignore function, it apparently isn't working. Is there anything you can do about my name being in such small font size?

My Ignorant List: English


ENGLISH! said:
Simply not worth my or anyone's time, effort, or attention. Hence, IGNORE!

But... I did remove everyone from the list in light of the Chrismas Spirit. I TRIED!
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nobcitypool said:
I respectfully disagree. I will maintain the vast majority of professionals in any sport are savants. There is an intangible they possess others simply don't have. You may or may not have that natural talent John. If you don't, all the knowledge in the world and practicing 7/24 wouldn't get you to where you could consistently compete well with top professionals.
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See I knew this would end up being another nature/nurture argument.

Scientific research points to training and not natural talent being the key ingredient to mastery of any field.
 
JB Cases said:
See I knew this would end up being another nature/nurture argument.

Scientific research points to training and not natural talent being the key ingredient to mastery of any field.
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I am on your side. At the same time, there must be some extremely minimum standards that fall under the category of nature.

For example, vision is a prerequisite to becoming a champion. If you will agree to that, then you might also agree that there is a minimum level of vision necessary to become a champion. If you are nearly blind, could you still be a champion through rigorous training? Maybe, maybe not, but there will be a threshold at some point.

A man must be a certain height to even reach the table. Certainly there are short people who could never be a champion even with the most rigorous training.

You must have a certain level of mobility in your arms. Some people have physical handicaps that prohibit normal functioning of the arms. So again, there must be a certain minimum level of ability in the arms to be a champion.

And we can go on in this manner. This argument is not difficult to accept, it is just not often considered.

So the difficult part is not to determine if nature plays a part in determining whether you can be a champion, the difficult part is to figure out the minimum level of necessary skills in order to be a champion.

And I would hypothesize that the minimum level of necessary skills is extremely low.
 
JB Cases said:
See I knew this would end up being another nature/nurture argument.

Scientific research points to training and not natural talent being the key ingredient to mastery of any field.
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John,

You will be wasting your time. But...it's your time. Good Luck!

Bet Regards,
 
ENGLISH! said:
John,

You will be wasting your time. But...it's your time. Good Luck!

Bet Regards,
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Wasting your time would be better defined by waiting on you to make an intelligent, meaningful post in lieu of inane, touchy/feely BS.


My Ignorant List: English
 
Please everyone, act kindly towards each other. You are doing nothing but repelling prospective new members from deciding to join! And you are driving current members one step closer to leaving! Is this what you want?
 
JB Cases said:
See I knew this would end up being another nature/nurture argument.

Scientific research points to training and not natural talent being the key ingredient to mastery of any field.
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John, can you reference any of that scientific research, I'd be interested in reading it?

I doubt we are as far apart in our thinking as it would appear. I am not saying it is natural talent alone. I am saying however there must be a very high level of natural talent plus work ethic plus circumstances. And to get to the very highest level, the best of the best, there is that additional intangible that no amount of work ethic and knowledge can overcome. Look at how many great pool players were phenoms at a very young age? How can you maintain it is knowledge and work ethic when you have guys playing at, or near, professional levels when they're 17 to 21 years old?

I grew up near and played basketball and baseball against Larry Bird in high school. I can tell you for fact, it wasn't knowledge and work ethic that made Larry Bird one of the all time greats. I believe he could have played professional baseball as well. He simply had off the charts hand to eye coordination and instincts you simply cannot train into someone.

John, I think a similar situation would be leadership. Certainly, you can train someone to be a better leader but IMHO, the truly great leaders are born with those intangibles and charisma you simply cannot teach or learn.

I'll give you an example closer to home. From what I can tell, you are one of the elite case makers. You could give me access to all your tools and tutor me for 5 years and I guarantee you I still couldn't make a case close to as good as you could, particularly if it required designing it with artistic flair. I think the same can be said for the great cue makers, they simply have an "eye" and natural talents you can't teach.

No big deal, it's easy for us to agree to disagree on the matter. Makes for an interesting debate.
 
Why don't you go rake some balls in the pocket dude? Can you spell H Y P O C R I T E?

ChrisBanks said:
Please everyone, act kindly towards each other. You are doing nothing but repelling prospective new members from deciding to join! And you are driving current members one step closer to leaving! Is this what you want?
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