T.o.i.

[ENGLISH!]

The 3 part pocket system doesnt have anything to do with what kind of cue shaft you are using. But does come in handy on some shots.

Using TOI to pocket a ball will introduce collision indused throw on the object ball. Thats why its best to line up the object ball to the right side of the pocket. (if cutting a ball to the right). The throw will send the object ball into the center or left side of the pocket.

Happy New Year All

John

Hi John,

Am I confused? I thought CJ said to aim just inside the full hit side of the pocket & use the squirt to add cut to get it to go into the center of the pocket.

What you describe is more like an inside english shot using the collision induced throw & adding a bit of spin induced throw to 'push' the ball into the center of the pocket.

Am I wrong?

Best Regards,

 

[One Pocket John]

Hi John,

Am I confused? I thought CJ said to aim just inside the full hit side of the pocket & use the squirt to add cut to get it to go into the center of the pocket.

What you describe is more like an inside english shot using the collision induced throw & adding a bit of spin induced throw to 'push' the ball into the center of the pocket.

Am I wrong?

Best Regards,

Let me look at the DVD one more time Rick.

Its my understanding that the small amount of spin on the QB is cancelled out by the angle of impact on the OB.

Be right back

Oh yeah.........Happy New Year. :smile:

John

 

[One Pocket John]

Hi John,

Am I confused? I thought CJ said to aim just inside the full hit side of the pocket & use the squirt to add cut to get it to go into the center of the pocket.

What you describe is more like an inside english shot using the collision induced throw & adding a bit of spin induced throw to 'push' the ball into the center of the pocket.

Am I wrong?

Best Regards,

Rick,

Just watched Chapter 1 - Tiltle 17 (TOI)

The way CJ explains it is if he is cutting a ball to the right he aims at the left side of the pocket using TOI.

I have been having a lot of fun with the 3 part pocket system. It makes the pocket a lot bigger than what it actually is.

Being a guy that has always used spin on shots the 3 part pocket system comes in very handy.

In bold type. That is true.

Get your table setup.

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

John,

Happy New Year to you as well.

My table is set up, AT MY SON"S HOUSE!

My house flooded in Katrina & we lived off site for quite a while. He asked me if we could move it to his house. So.. I LOANED it to him as his location is more convienenet for my 4 'children' & I figured it would get more use there. He says that it is, but I'm not so sure.

You & yours have a safe one tonight.

Best Regards & Best Wishes,

 

[Scott Lee]

Pidge...It's not just you. Even CJ never defined what a TOI is, in his opinion, as a measurable amount of spin...and that's part of the failure of the concept, as an absolute. From an instructional standpoint, we define a "tip of english" as 1/8" or 3mm, which was proven by the Jacksonville Project video. That's a REALLY small spot on the CB, aiming right or left of the vertical axis. Obviously, from reading CJ's threads, he must mean less than that, but never says so. As far as "seeing" the angles...use what works best for you. Remember, aiming is perceptual, and we all perceive differently.

Bottomline, I guess, would be to use what works for you, and discard what doesn't. That's a reasonable recommendation for any instructional tip, or lesson information. Nothing works the same for everybody!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Is it just me that doesn't have a clue what a touch of inside is?

I've not put the effort into finding out much about it to be fair. From what I've read I've seen lots of 'this' and "that", the over use of bold and italic text and philosophical sentences that divert rather abruptly from an easy to understand explanation.

CJ says about creating angles rather than using the angle you're given. Straight over my head. I can't see that moving my game up a step in all honesty. It just isn't for me I think. You need to hit firm - I hit the majority of my shots soft, low and with gearing outside english so the method is almost the direct opposite of what I've used for years and a change now would throw me back a step or two, atleast initially.

It clearly works extremely well for some players. Who can argue with a player of CJs talent? And I take my hat off to him - a legend of the game who takes time to pass on his knowledge to anyone willing to learn. Fair play.

I'm hoping this thread doesn't turn into a trainwreck like past threads as, even though I have no intention of using the TOI method, I am intrigued by it.

 

[stan shuffett]

Pidge...It's not just you. Even CJ never defined what a TOI is, in his opinion, as a measurable amount of spin...and that's part of the failure of the concept, as an absolute. From an instructional standpoint, we define a "tip of english" as 1/8" or 3mm, which was proven by the Jacksonville Project video. That's a REALLY small spot on the CB, aiming right or left of the vertical axis. Obviously, from reading CJ's threads, he must mean less than that, but never says so. As far as "seeing" the angles...use what works best for you. Remember, aiming is perceptual, and we all perceive differently.

Bottomline, I guess, would be to use what works for you, and discard what doesn't. That's a reasonable recommendation for any instructional tip, or lesson information. Nothing works the same for everybody!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Yes, Scott, Aiming is perceptual. As an aspect of visual intelligence, there are visual rules that we aquire early in life that govern how we perceive and those rules are the same for each of us.

It is true that we can perceive a cb/ob differently according to a particular method of aim but it is also true that a
specifically taught aiming strategy can yield the same perception for different
players.

Our eyes are not just passive when it comes to aiming, they are actually quite active in constructing images according to specific visual rules. Each of our eyes have the computing power greater than that of the fastest super computers in the world.

I have successfully taught objective perception to many, many students.This can happen quite easily when the eyes work with objectivity.

Resource

VISUAL INTELLIGENCE

By DONALD HOFFMAN

Stan Shuffett

 

[Scott Lee]

Thanks Stan! I agree with your take on this! :thumbup: All I want people to understand is there is no one single way of doing anything that works for everyone. Fortunately, for us, there are things that we teach that will work well for MANY players! :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Yes, Scott, Aiming is perceptual. As an aspect of visual intelligence, there are visual rules that we aquire early in life that govern how we perceive and those rules are the same for each of us.

It is true that we can perceive a cb/ob differently according to a particular method of aim but it is also true that a
specifically taught aiming strategy can yield the same perception for different
players.

Our eyes are not just passive when it comes to aiming, they are actually quite active in constructing images according to specific visual rules. Each of our eyes have the computing power greater than that of the fastest super computers in the world.

I have successfully taught objective perception to many, many students.This can happen quite easily when the eyes work with objectivity.

Resource

VISUAL INTELLIGENCE

By DONALD HOFFMAN

Stan Shuffett

 

[AtLarge]

Pidge...It's not just you. Even CJ never defined what a TOI is, in his opinion, as a measurable amount of spin...and that's part of the failure of the concept, as an absolute. From an instructional standpoint, we define a "tip of english" as 1/8" or 3mm, which was proven by the Jacksonville Project video. That's a REALLY small spot on the CB, aiming right or left of the vertical axis. Obviously, from reading CJ's threads, he must mean less than that, but never says so. ...

Scott, on CJ's latest DVD, he puts a number to TOI -- 1/8 tip. And I imagine he is talking about 1/8 the width of the cue tip (which would be about 1/16"), not 1/8 of the diameter of the actual tip contact area (which would be about 1/64").

But I think his basic point was just how little tip displacement he means by a "touch of inside" rather than that it's exactly 1/8 tip.

 

[irock]

Great posting everyone, this is how all the threads should be.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Great posting everyone, this is how all the threads should be.

Can that be our New Year's Resolution?

No Insults. No Slurs. No Name Calling. No Blanket Statements. No Animosity. No Closed Minds.

Just Plain Honest Civil Discussion.

Did I forget anything? Oh Yeah, No Published Ignore Lists:wink:

Best Wishes to All,

 

[Scott Lee]

AtLarge...My point exactly. Some tips are 13mm...some 11.75 (or smaller). The concept I referred to was measured in super slow motion, and shown with chalk marks on the ball. The size of the chalk mark didn't change significantly regardless of tip size, shape, or hardness (or whether you struck the CB with the edge of the tip, or the center of the tip). Even when you break, and it APPEARS to be larger; that is just chalk dust blowback from the tip. The actual size of the contact patch stays very consistent at about 3mm.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, on CJ's latest DVD, he puts a number to TOI -- 1/8 tip. And I imagine he is talking about 1/8 the width of the cue tip (which would be about 1/16"), not 1/8 of the diameter of the actual tip contact area (which would be about 1/64").

But I think his basic point was just how little tip displacement he means by a "touch of inside" rather than that it's exactly 1/8 tip.

 

[ENGLISH!]

AtLarge...My point exactly. Some tips are 13mm...some 11.75 (or smaller). The concept I referred to was measured in super slow motion, and shown with chalk marks on the ball. The size of the chalk mark didn't change significantly regardless of tip size, shape, or hardness (or whether you struck the CB with the edge of the tip, or the center of the tip). Even when you break, and it APPEARS to be larger; that is just chalk dust blowback from the tip. The actual size of the contact patch stays very consistent at about 3mm.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mr. Lee,

What exactly is your point relative to the TOI? It's not clear to me.

3mm is .175 of an inch more than 1/8 of an inch. The center of the 3mm 'patch' can be on center or it can be 2mm to one side or the other.

I'm not fully getting your point relative to the TOI.

Best Wishes,

 

[RG1]

Yes, Scott, Aiming is perceptual. As an aspect of visual intelligence, there are visual rules that we aquire early in life that govern how we perceive and those rules are the same for each of us.

It is true that we can perceive a cb/ob differently according to a particular method of aim but it is also true that a
specifically taught aiming strategy can yield the same perception for different
players.

Our eyes are not just passive when it comes to aiming, they are actually quite active in constructing images according to specific visual rules. Each of our eyes have the computing power greater than that of the fastest super computers in the world.

I have successfully taught objective perception to many, many students.This can happen quite easily when the eyes work with objectivity.

Resource

VISUAL INTELLIGENCE

By DONALD HOFFMAN

Stan Shuffett

Now Stan Shuffett is the type of advanced, forward thinking instructor i would be looking for and enjoy taking lessons from!!!

 

[One Pocket John]

CJ said he was producing a video dedicated to TOI.

Man, sure do wish he would post it asap.

John

 

[RG1]

I prefer technique videos over drill videos myself. :smile:

 

[The Renfro]

AtLarge...My point exactly. Some tips are 13mm...some 11.75 (or smaller). The concept I referred to was measured in super slow motion, and shown with chalk marks on the ball. The size of the chalk mark didn't change significantly regardless of tip size, shape, or hardness (or whether you struck the CB with the edge of the tip, or the center of the tip). Even when you break, and it APPEARS to be larger; that is just chalk dust blowback from the tip. The actual size of the contact patch stays very consistent at about 3mm.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott,

Do you know when the tests were done and with what tips?

I seriously wonder if the tip technology changes might yield different results if done now...

What leads me to this question is knowing that the contact patch size using a phenolic tip decreases significantly... This has me wondering about the contact patches on layered tips since the glue layers can add significant COR to a tip....

Just food for thought and another test I may have to add to my todo list =)


Chris

 

[ENGLISH!]

Scott,

Do you know when the tests were done and with what tips?

I seriously wonder if the tip technology changes might yield different results if done now...

What leads me to this question is knowing that the contact patch size using a phenolic tip decreases significantly... This has me wondering about the contact patches on layered tips since the glue layers can add significant COR to a tip....

Just food for thought and another test I may have to add to my todo list =)


Chris

Chris,

I always preferred the softer Elk Masters or Brunswick Blue Diamonds as they were the softest of the old solid leather tips.

To me, the tip is the most important part of any cue. Some say any such small difference is insignificant. Well it may be insignificant to them, but ANY difference IS significant to me no matter how small.

I have an OB Classic with a Kamui Super Soft tip. When I first got it, it was like the cue ball was sticking to it, so much so that I could not play with it & I have been playing with those soft tips for 45 years.

Someone here suggested taking a few layers off of it & it will gradually get playable. I did & it did even though is it still softer than the Elk Masters & still feels a bit 'sticky'.

I too would be intersted in some new testing of both center & english off center hits at all different speeds as well.

Best Wishes & Regards,

 

[Mikjary]

............

 

[JB Cases]

Pidge...It's not just you. Even CJ never defined what a TOI is, in his opinion, as a measurable amount of spin...and that's part of the failure of the concept, as an absolute. From an instructional standpoint, we define a "tip of english" as 1/8" or 3mm, which was proven by the Jacksonville Project video. That's a REALLY small spot on the CB, aiming right or left of the vertical axis. Obviously, from reading CJ's threads, he must mean less than that, but never says so. As far as "seeing" the angles...use what works best for you. Remember, aiming is perceptual, and we all perceive differently.

Bottomline, I guess, would be to use what works for you, and discard what doesn't. That's a reasonable recommendation for any instructional tip, or lesson information. Nothing works the same for everybody!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Well for me I found that TOI is just as the title suggests a touch of inside. I kind of feel like it's a jedi mind trick to keep you close to center ball by forcing the shooter to focus on being just a hair outside center.

For me it also forces one to think about the amount of spin needed when I do need to use side spin. Instead of going to an automatic default I consider whether I can get to position with less spin and find that I am a lot of the time.

This is all on the practice table. When I play I am not thinking about it I just do it. FWIW I aim using CTE and then apply the TOI - I also don't consider the 3 part pocket method. Just CTE and TOI.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Well for me I found that TOI is just as the title suggests a touch of inside. I kind of feel like it's a jedi mind trick to keep you close to center ball by forcing the shooter to focus on being just a hair outside center.

For me it also forces one to think about the amount of spin needed when I do need to use side spin. Instead of going to an automatic default I consider whether I can get to position with less spin and find that I am a lot of the time.

This is all on the practice table. When I play I am not thinking about it I just do it. FWIW I aim using CTE and then apply the TOI - I also don't consider the 3 part pocket method. Just CTE and TOI.

Hi John,

I just today spent 3 hours with TOI. I have not pursued CTE with any real varacity. I have only toyed with it which has left me very intrigued with it. I use a mirror fractional overlap. I too have not focused on the 3 part pocket per say when 'aiming'. I 'think' what I am doing is just slightly adjusting my normal aim for a bit more fuller hit & then using the TOI to sguirt the CB for more cut. That may sound a bit of double indemnity, so to speak, but it's nice to hear the OB hitting the back of the pocket.

I would love to discuss CTE with you one day. I have viewed some of your videos. It just seems a bit more complicated than aiming needs to be, but I understand that a system, at least to fall back on, is nice to have. I don't have one. I generally just rely on my subconscious which seems to work fine but so did CTE except for the holes that I know are from my lack of knowledge with CTE.

Best Wishes, especially in a few days,