Yes, you're up next, as soon as I finish up with this GC3:grin:
Warning to those buying used Gold Crowns!
- Thread starter realkingcobra
- Start date
Yes, you're up next, as soon as I finish up with this GC3:grin:
If anyone thinks I'm bashing Brunswick Gold Crowns, you really don't know me at all. Diamond's and Brunswick's are my favorite pool tables, it's just that I run into more problems with Brunswick's than I ever do with Diamond's...mostly because they've had the rails mixed up with other Gold Crowns, that can't happen with the Diamond's. I know a lot of people swear by Gold Crowns, but they've never been on my end of one that's for sure. I just want people to be more aware of what they're getting into....BEFORE they get into it, that's all. So, like I said, I'll post pictures of what's wrong with this table, and what to look for to avoid these kinds of problems before buying one in the future.
Glen
Glen
I think when buying a pool table used you have to be prepared for it to be in any condition from great to crappy. Glen has been really good about showing his process and in my opinion anyone could study Glen's threads and probably come away with enough to make just about any table into a pretty good playing table.
Diamond is also not in competition with used Brunswick tables. If anything Glen should be happy that people are buying them with "issues" because he gets paid good money to upgrade them.
My opinion is that Glen provides more than just criticism here. He provides a buying guide as well as detailed instructions on how to fix common problems he encounters.
Personally if I were Diamond I'd put him on salary and forbid him from working on any other tables. I have the feeling that when Glen is done with a table it's pretty solid and plays as close to a Diamond that any table that is not a Diamond can play. So while Diamond isn't in competition with used Brunswicks - when Glen is done with one of them that customer is probably out of the market for a new table for like, forever.
Diamond is also not in competition with used Brunswick tables. If anything Glen should be happy that people are buying them with "issues" because he gets paid good money to upgrade them.
My opinion is that Glen provides more than just criticism here. He provides a buying guide as well as detailed instructions on how to fix common problems he encounters.
Personally if I were Diamond I'd put him on salary and forbid him from working on any other tables. I have the feeling that when Glen is done with a table it's pretty solid and plays as close to a Diamond that any table that is not a Diamond can play. So while Diamond isn't in competition with used Brunswicks - when Glen is done with one of them that customer is probably out of the market for a new table for like, forever.
Funny, I study Glen's threads and all I come away with is "I should definately hire Glen for the next GC or Diamond install I need".
Another issue to consider in the comparison is that there is no such thing as a 50 year old Diamond table. :wink:
Every Diamond table there is basically is almost new compared to the majority of the Gold Crowns out there. A lot can happen to a table over the decades.
Oh, and I never thought you were bashing Gold Crowns. But other people certainly are.
.
Fellows, As the saying goes: it's not the brand of table, it's the Mechanic! Specially when buying a used table or even New! No matter what table you buy (preferably Diamond or GC at the least) your best bet is to make sure you have the best mechanic that can put it together. (Repeat the last sentence over and over again verbatim!)
1. DIY folks, forget about it!!! This is one arena where you either know it or you don't. In the medical world, you can Google all you want and get the info you need but when it comes to brain surgery - you just need the brain surgeon period! Yes! Pool tables needs the same precision work!
2.Your Local Mechanics - check with Glen he pretty much knows everyone's work through out the country. If he's never heard of him - Beware!
3. When you do your research - just look and compare Glen's work through his posts here or for the West Coasters check Donny Wessels of SD Billiards work through his posts here in AZ. Ask the "would be" mechanic to show you a table that he has put together. Anything less than Glen's Craft is Non-Optimum.
My Testimonial:
Four years ago I bought a Diamond Professional for $1000 on Craigslist. It was as beat up as my uncle's Gremlin if you remember those cars... I contacted Glen and sent him pictures of the table disassembled. He told me that the table I bought is the first batch Diamond ever made back in early part of 80's via serial number written on the rails underside. Nonetheless, he said he would make it right, I waited 2yrs for him. When he finally came he discovered that the the rails were bowed. Long story short the table was completed and plays like no other in all of Las Vegas! It took Glen four grueling days in a 102 degree weather in my garage to complete the table!
My good friend here had a Diamond Pro-Am which he bought from the factory brand new! After he played on my table he said that he didnt like his table anymore. So he sold it and bought one of the GC5's that was used by the pros at the Riviera. I told him to be careful, research thoroughly and choose wisely whoever is gonna put it together. His response was "the tournament people are gonna put it together for me. It's got to be good as the pros played on it." When he got it all completed at his house I asked him if he wanted to practice on his new GC5. His face was glum and told me "Nah, it's ok we can practice at yours" I asked him what's the matter? He said the table looks beautiful and as good as new but it doesn't even play close to the tables at Cue Club (local Vegas pool hall) let alone your Diamond. I gave him Donny Wessels cell phone number and told him don't worry about it. It can be fixed. I didn't give him Glen's, as don't think he can wait.
When I first bought my Diamond and contacted Glen he told me to contact Donny as it might be awhile till he comes around my way. After he saw the pictures of the table and realized it was the first Diamond Series and that I wanted Pro Cut pockets, he said "HOLD ON! You have to wait for me, I have to do this one..."
Moral of the post? It is most important and an absolute requirement to get the right person to put the table together than choosing which brand of table and how cheap the price is!
Do it right the first time guys! I would make this Strictly Enforced!
My best friends Dad used to say it best: The Lazy Man works twice as hard! In this case, don't be the Lazy Man, it will cost you twice as much...
"My Charity Goes To Our Troops!"
1. DIY folks, forget about it!!! This is one arena where you either know it or you don't. In the medical world, you can Google all you want and get the info you need but when it comes to brain surgery - you just need the brain surgeon period! Yes! Pool tables needs the same precision work!
2.Your Local Mechanics - check with Glen he pretty much knows everyone's work through out the country. If he's never heard of him - Beware!
3. When you do your research - just look and compare Glen's work through his posts here or for the West Coasters check Donny Wessels of SD Billiards work through his posts here in AZ. Ask the "would be" mechanic to show you a table that he has put together. Anything less than Glen's Craft is Non-Optimum.
My Testimonial:
Four years ago I bought a Diamond Professional for $1000 on Craigslist. It was as beat up as my uncle's Gremlin if you remember those cars... I contacted Glen and sent him pictures of the table disassembled. He told me that the table I bought is the first batch Diamond ever made back in early part of 80's via serial number written on the rails underside. Nonetheless, he said he would make it right, I waited 2yrs for him. When he finally came he discovered that the the rails were bowed. Long story short the table was completed and plays like no other in all of Las Vegas! It took Glen four grueling days in a 102 degree weather in my garage to complete the table!
My good friend here had a Diamond Pro-Am which he bought from the factory brand new! After he played on my table he said that he didnt like his table anymore. So he sold it and bought one of the GC5's that was used by the pros at the Riviera. I told him to be careful, research thoroughly and choose wisely whoever is gonna put it together. His response was "the tournament people are gonna put it together for me. It's got to be good as the pros played on it." When he got it all completed at his house I asked him if he wanted to practice on his new GC5. His face was glum and told me "Nah, it's ok we can practice at yours" I asked him what's the matter? He said the table looks beautiful and as good as new but it doesn't even play close to the tables at Cue Club (local Vegas pool hall) let alone your Diamond. I gave him Donny Wessels cell phone number and told him don't worry about it. It can be fixed. I didn't give him Glen's, as don't think he can wait.
When I first bought my Diamond and contacted Glen he told me to contact Donny as it might be awhile till he comes around my way. After he saw the pictures of the table and realized it was the first Diamond Series and that I wanted Pro Cut pockets, he said "HOLD ON! You have to wait for me, I have to do this one..."
Moral of the post? It is most important and an absolute requirement to get the right person to put the table together than choosing which brand of table and how cheap the price is!
Do it right the first time guys! I would make this Strictly Enforced!
My best friends Dad used to say it best: The Lazy Man works twice as hard! In this case, don't be the Lazy Man, it will cost you twice as much...
"My Charity Goes To Our Troops!"
Last edited:
Well of course there are more bad Brunswicks that simple laws of averages theirs a 100 times more of them out there your bound to find a bad apple among them sooner or later.
However I think a bad table is a exception and not the rule I know more than one table mech and don't recall them ever having a bad word to say about a GC3.
1
Partially True, unless they don't know what to look for
Anyone can put a table and cloth together. Just like anyone can put a website together and label themselves "In Business""My Charity Goes To Our Troops"
WE ARE LUCKY AS HELL GLENN IS HERE ON THIS FORUM AND TAKING THE TIME TO HELP AND EDUCATE.
The Lazy Man works twice as hard! In this case, don't be the Lazy Man, it will cost you twice as much...
I LIKE THAT ONE CANNON..
THIS IS ONE I LIVE BY...COST ME ALOT TO LEARN.
...NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO IT RIGHT..BUT ALWAYS ENOUGH MONEY TO DO OVER AGAIN..
THANK YOU GLENN...
The Lazy Man works twice as hard! In this case, don't be the Lazy Man, it will cost you twice as much...
I LIKE THAT ONE CANNON..
THIS IS ONE I LIVE BY...COST ME ALOT TO LEARN.
...NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO IT RIGHT..BUT ALWAYS ENOUGH MONEY TO DO OVER AGAIN..
THANK YOU GLENN...
Glen, help me out as I don't know much about Diamond's tables (or GCs for that matter). Why can't the rails on a Diamond be mixed up? Wouldn't they be interchangeable?
Thanks
The Diamond rails are marked with a serial number and assembly sequence.
After reading all of Glens posts on updating the older red label Diamond rails, I decided to do mine myself.
Glen was very generous with the mod details, and filled in what I was not sure of, when I called him several times for info. He even offered to stop by and help, but his schedule made that difficult.
I have been a woodworker for close to 50 years, so had little trouble building the necessary jigs, and performing the modification. But without Glen's research and development, I would have been lost.
My table plays perfect now, thanks to this dedicated man sharing what he knows.
Thanks again Glen! And stop by if you are ever in the neighborhood!
After reading all of Glens posts on updating the older red label Diamond rails, I decided to do mine myself.
Glen was very generous with the mod details, and filled in what I was not sure of, when I called him several times for info. He even offered to stop by and help, but his schedule made that difficult.
I have been a woodworker for close to 50 years, so had little trouble building the necessary jigs, and performing the modification. But without Glen's research and development, I would have been lost.
My table plays perfect now, thanks to this dedicated man sharing what he knows.
Thanks again Glen! And stop by if you are ever in the neighborhood!
Please believe me when I say that the Diamond ProAms are a 100 year table at the least. If Diamond were to stay in business as long as Brunswick has, they be putting themselves out of business today because of their own pool tables. Unlike Brunswick that has built and produced 5 different models of the Gold Crowns, Diamond's one and only ProAm is a forever table model that is never going to show its age. Unless the table is beat up with an Axe, the rails are never going to show age or wear'n-tear because of the Dymondwood rails, the one piece slate is never going to come apart, it's rail blinds are always going to look like new. With that all being said, who would Diamond be selling tables to in the 100 year future?...with pool rooms filled with ProAm's that are never going to need to be replaced,...who would ever replace the ProAm's that look great and play great...100 years from now? Sure, cushions can be replaced, stapled out rails can be repaired, pocket liners can be replaced....but to replace the whole table???....not a chance in hell...maybe not even in 200 years
Glen
perfectpocketz
Banned
The rails are what make the table play the way it does.
Get the right guy to fix the rails the right way....and the table will play great.
There's a lot of mechanic's out there that can level the table and put the cloth on.....
But just a couple that understand the true work involved in making the rails play great.
Glen and I talk all the time about cushions...
And what needs to be done for the cushions to play there best.
Rail work is in a league all it's own....trust me....there's a lot of work in reconstructing a set of rails. I just don't agree with adding pieces of wood in different places on a rail and calling it Rebuilt and calibrated.....glen and I have gone round and round at times over how much should be done to a rail....and just what's needed.
The cushions need a solid foundation behind them....for the best play.
Getting the right guy is the right thing to do......but there's just so many of those guys available.
Glen has made a big time change in letting people in on a lot of knowledge.
People wonder why GC are all mixed up.....people are selling them to make money....not to keep all the right parts together. Kind of like used car sales men.
Everything plays great to them.....you find a guy like Glen and a few others to tell people the truth...... about just what they've bought.
The problems not with Brunswick....it's with the people owning the tables and selling the tables.
They can all get fixed correctly.....but you still need the right guy for the job....and more than likely that guys going to charge you a lot more for the job done right.
I'm not saying the higher the charge the better the work.
I'm saying before you pull the trigger.....find out who your paying for what you want done.
Mark Gregory
Get the right guy to fix the rails the right way....and the table will play great.
There's a lot of mechanic's out there that can level the table and put the cloth on.....
But just a couple that understand the true work involved in making the rails play great.
Glen and I talk all the time about cushions...
And what needs to be done for the cushions to play there best.
Rail work is in a league all it's own....trust me....there's a lot of work in reconstructing a set of rails. I just don't agree with adding pieces of wood in different places on a rail and calling it Rebuilt and calibrated.....glen and I have gone round and round at times over how much should be done to a rail....and just what's needed.
The cushions need a solid foundation behind them....for the best play.
Getting the right guy is the right thing to do......but there's just so many of those guys available.
Glen has made a big time change in letting people in on a lot of knowledge.
People wonder why GC are all mixed up.....people are selling them to make money....not to keep all the right parts together. Kind of like used car sales men.
Everything plays great to them.....you find a guy like Glen and a few others to tell people the truth...... about just what they've bought.
The problems not with Brunswick....it's with the people owning the tables and selling the tables.
They can all get fixed correctly.....but you still need the right guy for the job....and more than likely that guys going to charge you a lot more for the job done right.
I'm not saying the higher the charge the better the work.
I'm saying before you pull the trigger.....find out who your paying for what you want done.
Mark Gregory
The rails as a whole can be changed from table to table, as they use the same bolt pattern, but the rails themselves can't be changed from one set to another because they're built without the use of corner castings, meaning they're assembled as a ring-rail first, then sanded/buffed to fit as a set, then finished up complete. So, dowel pins, the finish of the rails in the corners and such will not line up with mixed up rails...this is why I've never had to work on mismatched rails on Diamond's like I have on Brunswick's, but believe me, when Brunswick sent the tables out...all the rails matched to begin with
I've never had to deal with pocket's being nailed in on a Diamond, but why...why...why do some mechanic's feel the need to NAIL the pockets in on a Gold Crown, when they're designed to be mounted with machine screws....it's beyond my understanding. I don't understand why when someone owns a Diamond, they want to make sure that who ever works on it, KNOWS what they're doing, whereas when it comes to Gold Crowns...they'll let ANYONE work on them...why?....because they're GOLD CROWNS??? Brunswick has never built a bad Gold Crown, not in any of the 5 models they've built to-date, so therefore the only way they get turned into bad Gold Crowns is by table mechanics working on them that have no idea what they're doing...and by the customers that HIRE them...who know nothing about the Gold Crowns, but want to pay the least amount possible to have the work done...therefore, I blame the PUBLIC for helping the HACKS out here in the workforce...for f#*#ing so many of the GREAT Gold Crowns in the market place. PS. I also blame most of the ROOM OWNERS for letting the Gold Crowns get in the condition they're in...and trust me, I've been in a lot of pool rooms around the country
...because they DON"T want to spend the money to take care of the equipment in the room...which is the main reason why customers come to the room in the first place....then CRY about how bad businss is when they STOP coming...because someone else opened a new room not to far away...with newer tables, in better condition....and clean bathrooms!!!!Glen
Mark is 100% right, and I tell him all the time, "People will pay Xamount of dollars to someone that don't know what they're doing, over and over again....why don't they just hire someone that DOES know what they're doing the first time around, and save all that extra money they'd be spending on the second, third...or fourth mechanic that keeps doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a better outcome the next time
Glen
Did Glen have a bad word to say about he GC3, or did he just tell folks to be on the look out for ones without the correct parts? Thus, trying to save some poor saps the added expense of making it right again...
so, when folks like Glen are trying to help out the pool community, a thank you would suffice next time
As others have stated, Glen isn't bashing the design or playability of Gold Crowns, nor is he bashing Brunswick. Glen's problem is with the room owners that say they're selling you a Gold Crown but are really selling you a pile of Gold Crown parts from multiple tables.
Once one of those Frankentables makes it into the wild, they're made worse and worse by a succession of "mechanics" trying to "fix" them when they invariably don't assemble or play correctly. Maybe they re-drill slate holes because they're trying to make 3 peices of slate from 2 or 3 different tables line up, maybe they trim rail wood because they're trying to make rails from different sets line up or maybe they perform any number of other hacks in an attempt to satisfy the customer by giving them a table that "looks" right. That's bad enough, but then when the owner sells the table, the next "mechanic" repeats the process when he tries to assemble the table for the new poor shmuck that buys it.
Add to that the fact that many table owners are perfectly willing to drop $1,000 - $2,500 for a used up pool room Gold Crown, but they'll spend hours or days searching for a guy that'll deliver the 1,100 pound table to their house, set it up, and put cloth on it for ~$250 because they don't want to get "ripped off". Table set up and recovering is one of those things in life where you really do get what you pay for.
I sound like I know what I'm talking about because Glen is at my house right now working on my Frankentable. Luckily for me, I atleast knew enough to make sure I was getting a table that hadn't been hacked beyond repair. Additionally, I knew that unless I was REALLY lucky, I'd be paying someone like Glen to make the table right. As a result, I negotiated a purchase price that allowed me to cover that additional expense and still be able to feel that the table was a great value. Most importantly, while I did pay a local installer to assemble/cover the table when Glen didn't think he'd be available, I did not follow good money with bad by asking that installer to come back and do things that were beyond his abilities. Matter of fact, I was preparing to box up my rails for a trip to Donny when Glen called to let me know he was going to be in my area
Once one of those Frankentables makes it into the wild, they're made worse and worse by a succession of "mechanics" trying to "fix" them when they invariably don't assemble or play correctly. Maybe they re-drill slate holes because they're trying to make 3 peices of slate from 2 or 3 different tables line up, maybe they trim rail wood because they're trying to make rails from different sets line up or maybe they perform any number of other hacks in an attempt to satisfy the customer by giving them a table that "looks" right. That's bad enough, but then when the owner sells the table, the next "mechanic" repeats the process when he tries to assemble the table for the new poor shmuck that buys it.
Add to that the fact that many table owners are perfectly willing to drop $1,000 - $2,500 for a used up pool room Gold Crown, but they'll spend hours or days searching for a guy that'll deliver the 1,100 pound table to their house, set it up, and put cloth on it for ~$250 because they don't want to get "ripped off". Table set up and recovering is one of those things in life where you really do get what you pay for.
I sound like I know what I'm talking about because Glen is at my house right now working on my Frankentable. Luckily for me, I atleast knew enough to make sure I was getting a table that hadn't been hacked beyond repair. Additionally, I knew that unless I was REALLY lucky, I'd be paying someone like Glen to make the table right. As a result, I negotiated a purchase price that allowed me to cover that additional expense and still be able to feel that the table was a great value. Most importantly, while I did pay a local installer to assemble/cover the table when Glen didn't think he'd be available, I did not follow good money with bad by asking that installer to come back and do things that were beyond his abilities. Matter of fact, I was preparing to box up my rails for a trip to Donny when Glen called to let me know he was going to be in my area
Last edited:
Mark is 100% right, and I tell him all the time, "People will pay Xamount of dollars to someone that don't know what they're doing, over and over again....why don't they just hire someone that DOES know what they're doing the first time around, and save all that extra money they'd be spending on the second, third...or fourth mechanic that keeps doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a better outcome the next time
Glen
When will you be by DFW again, Glen? I have a table that might need some TLC....CJ
perfectpocketz
Banned
As others have stated, Glen isn't bashing the design or playability of Gold Crowns, nor is he bashing Brunswick. Glen's problem is with the room owners that say they're selling you a Gold Crown but are really selling you a pile of Gold Crown parts from multiple tables.
Once one of those Frankentables makes it into the wild, they're made worse and worse by a succession of "mechanics" trying to "fix" them when they invariably don't assemble or play correctly. Maybe they re-drill slate holes because they're trying to make 3 peices of slate from 2 or 3 different tables line up, maybe they trim rail wood because they're trying to make rails from different sets line up or maybe they perform any number of other hacks in an attempt to satisfy the customer by giving them a table that "looks" right. That's bad enough, but then when the owner sells the table, the next "mechanic" repeats the process when he tries to assemble the table for the new poor shmuck that buys it.
Add to that the fact that many table owners are perfectly willing to drop $1,000 - $2,500 for a used up pool room Gold Crown, but they'll spend hours or days searching for a guy that'll deliver the 1,100 pound table to their house, set it up, and put cloth on it for ~$250 because they don't want to get "ripped off". Table set up and recovering is one of those things in life where you really do get what you pay for.
I sound like I know what I'm talking about because Glen is at my house right now working on my Frankentable. Luckily for me, I atleast knew enough to make sure I was getting a table that hadn't been hacked beyond repair. Additionally, I knew that unless I was REALLY lucky, I'd be paying someone like Glen to make the table right. As a result, I negotiated a purchase price that allowed me to cover that additional expense and still be able to feel that the table was a great value. Most importantly, while I did pay a local installer to assemble/cover the table when Glen didn't think he'd be available, I did not follow good money with bad by asking that installer to come back and do things that were beyond his abilities. Matter of fact, I was preparing to box up my rails for a trip to Donny when Glen called to let me know he was going to be in my area
Your absolutly correct on everything you have said.....people just need to get the info about tables.....and the mechanic's out the same way the have passed the word of... tips......cloth.....cushions....that the last thing people worry about.....:they spend 1000s on cues.....cases.....cloth....balls....all the equipment to play the game.....but when it comes to the table...that guy is to high priced....I'll get Henry the hack down the street.... And then ***** about the job they received.
I do know you made the right decision on haveing Glen do your table....he's by far the best.....but he's still running a close second to me in the rails.
The rails are my expertise.....but as far as the table.....I don't think there's anyone alive that can challenge him on table work or cloth work.....he's the master.
Mark Gregory