Pool America Sports Begins

There is no reason for pool other than for a night out, and that is why it is dying. There are too many other ways to spend your time now.

The entertainment sector is certainly large. Even the biggest industries in the sector eat each other alive for business. We can look at industries that deal in the mulch-billions whereby prominent players get shut down or go out of business. Lots of people biting that one apple, to be sure.

That said, it's a numbers game. You don't win in the entertainment business catering to the diehards looking to find some monetary profit, you win by catering to the masses (unless you have a business model modest enough to be supported by those few, but we're not really talking industry scale in most of those scenarios). Poker makes it's money on the fish. Video games don't make their money because of eSports, they make their money on those that can barely coordinate both thumbs. Professional sports leagues make their money on those that watch their sports, not those that participate. The NFL is the most watched professional team sport by women, with some estimates of up to 1/2 of all women in the country watching the sport, despite the fact almost none of them have ever even played organized football, much less have been paid for it. The idea that some may be able to make some money doing these things is certainly an allure for some, but most accept the reality that, at the very least, they better have something to fall back on.

As the NCAA so happily likes to trumpet: almost all athletes will go on to do something other than professional sports. The NCAA has championships in 23 sports, many of which are played by both sexes, and yet, for the vast majority of institutions only men's football and basketball could be considered revenue sports.

I would cite this forum as evidence that one reason pool is not as successful as some would like is because not enough attention is paid to simply 'having a fun night out'. Think of the myriad of 'pool is dying' type of threads on this site and then think of how many of them revolve around incentives other than financial. How many of them are stories of the game just being fun. Or how people play the game simply for the competition. There's not very many in those threads. In fact, I've never seen anyone else even mention the cultural aspects of a game's popularity in those threads, and that's an enormous part of why anything is popular at any time, in any region, amongst any particular group of people.

I thought that explaining that up front would make the $9.95 go down a bit easier.

There's not much that is going to make that go down easier, I'm afraid. We live in a world where millions complain about how little they got for 99 cents on a mobile game!

There's a reason sports channels fight so hard to not only get on service providers but to get on their basic tiers. It's very hard to get customers to pony up for additional content. Sports like college football do everything they can to have a game not be on PPV, because very few fanbases have ever supported it well enough to make it profitable. There's a sports channel on many providers that provides soccer and rugby matches for 15 dollars a month and it's not something that has proven popular in those communities, and this is at least the second venture to attempt that channel. Quite simply, it's seen as too expensive for one channel. Price, especially in a PPV, is a considerable consideration.

If it dies, it will be because you, the players, want it to die.

I'm going to be very blunt and say that approach will never get you anywhere. You never want to put the burden on your would be consumers. People on this site clearly want pool to succeed, and as can be seen in many places they want to see people make a living playing pool. There are lots of reasons why such a venture wouldn't work, including purely economic ones. This quote is a bit of a guilt trip, and that will only deter those would be consumers.

I think it is very important that there is a good reaction for these players. For them, as well as for all of you, it has been an uphill battle all the way, with nowhere to go when you get to the top. I would like a thousand people to buy the video, and you will see the face of pool change immediately. 1,000 is a lot, but it really isn't considering how many players there are.

Everyone wants to see pool change for the better. Please, buy this video and you will see that happen.

We're talking about 10,000 dollars, correct? How will that amount change the pool world?

Make Pro players rich. Very simple. Everything else will follow.

There are several posts in this thread that challenge that 'simple' premise. No one is denying that the potential professional aspirations can intice players to play, but there's a simple economics argument that is fundamentally missing here. For every person that makes that $200,000, you need many multitudes supporting them. A rock star may make a kid pick up a guitar, but it is those that don't know a bass from a treble clef buying their songs, merchandise, and tickets that made them that money.

To at least attempt to convince a community that is mostly already on your side, you're going to need to do a far better job coming up with an argument than what I've seen in this thread or that website. To convince those outside this community, and most importantly, those that currently don't consider pool as something they should be concerned with, you're going to need to do much, much more than that. Making others wealthy is generally not an argument to convince people to put up the dough, as alluded to above. The merits of a 'trickle down' economic structure have been exalted for hundreds of years, but remains unpopular because it is very hard for those supporting the top to see how it benefits those at the bottom.

We really need to change the perception of pool players. Make them people to look up to, not just people who have talent, but get no respect.

Being purely constructive, as most in this thread are, does that free video sample showcase this?

What I did like was your video of you candidly talking about this project. There's a human connection there. That's why hustling stories are popular. That's why Earl Strickland is popular. Sure, he's a good player, but his antics are entertaining (to some). Those poker players you see on TV are popular because they're personalities. There's a good reason NBC spends so much of its time with human highlight pieces during its Olympic coverage. You may not care about horses jumping over things, but you may relate to that rider and that may be the enticement that gets you to watch something you may have never tuned into otherwise.

The most interesting thing in that video of you talking is much of what you describe is simply culture. That's why soccer is 'boring' for you, but baseball is boring for others. There's something about soccer that isn't boring or billions wouldn't watch it. That connection with the Steelers you describe is a product of culture. Years and years of investment with that city, that franchise, and the people develop that culture. A new sport doesn't have that culture in that city. Lots of sports have made the mistake of assuming that simply putting a city name with no connection would create these kinds of rivalries. Those human connections, those cultural connections are very important and they take time to develop, often generations or longer. Does this financial model allow that to happen, that's what you have to ask yourself.
 
Last edited:
Thanks

The entertainment sector is certainly large. Even the biggest industries in the sector eat each other alive for business. We can look at industries that deal in the mulch-billions whereby prominent players get shut down or go out of business. Lots of people biting that one apple, to be sure.

That said, it's a numbers game. You don't win in the entertainment business catering to the diehards looking to find some monetary profit, you win by catering to the masses (unless you have a business model modest enough to be supported by those few, but we're not really talking industry scale in most of those scenarios). Poker makes it's money on the fish. Video games don't make their money because of eSports, they make their money on those that can barely coordinate both thumbs. Professional sports leagues make their money on those that watch their sports, not those that participate. The NFL is the most watched professional team sport by women, with some estimates of up to 1/2 of all women in the country watching the sport, despite the fact almost none of them have ever even played organized football, much less have been paid for it. The idea that some may be able to make some money doing these things is certainly an allure for some, but most accept the reality that, at the very least, they better have something to fall back on.

As the NCAA so happily likes to trumpet: almost all athletes will go on to do something other than professional sports. The NCAA has championships in 23 sports, many of which are played by both sexes, and yet, for the vast majority of institutions only men's football and basketball could be considered revenue sports.

I would cite this forum as evidence that one reason pool is not as successful as some would like is because not enough attention is paid to simply 'having a fun night out'. Think of the myriad of 'pool is dying' type of threads on this site and then think of how many of them revolve around incentives other than financial. How many of them are stories of the game just being fun. Or how people play the game simply for the competition. There's not very many in those threads. In fact, I've never seen anyone else even mention the cultural aspects of a game's popularity in those threads, and that's an enormous part of why anything is popular at any time, in any region, amongst any particular group of people.



There's not much that is going to make that go down easier, I'm afraid. We live in a world where millions complain about how little they got for 99 cents on a mobile game!

There's a reason sports channels fight so hard to not only get on service providers but to get on their basic tiers. It's very hard to get customers to pony up for additional content. Sports like college football do everything they can to have a game not be on PPV, because very few fanbases have ever supported it well enough to make it profitable. There's a sports channel on many providers that provides soccer and rugby matches for 15 dollars a month and it's not something that has proven popular in those communities, and this is at least the second venture to attempt that channel. Quite simply, it's seen as too expensive for one channel. Price, especially in a PPV, is a considerable consideration.



I'm going to be very blunt and say that approach will never get you anywhere. You never want to put the burden on your would be consumers. People on this site clearly want pool to succeed, and as can be seen in many places they want to see people make a living playing pool. There are lots of reasons why such a venture wouldn't work, including purely economic ones. This quote is a bit of a guilt trip, and that will only deter those would be consumers.



We're talking about 10,000 dollars, correct? How will that amount change the pool world?



There are several posts in this thread that challenge that 'simple' premise. No one is denying that the potential professional aspirations can intice players to play, but there's a simple economics argument that is fundamentally missing here. For every person that makes that $200,000, you need many multitudes supporting them. A rock star may make a kid pick up a guitar, but it is those that don't know a bass from a treble clef buying their songs, merchandise, and tickets that made them that money.

To at least attempt to convince a community that is mostly already on your side, you're going to need to do a far better job coming up with an argument than what I've seen in this thread or that website. To convince those outside this community, and most importantly, those that currently don't consider pool as something they should be concerned with, you're going to need to do much, much more than that. Making others wealthy is generally not an argument to convince people to put up the dough, as alluded to above. The merits of a 'trickle down' economic structure have been exalted for hundreds of years, but remains unpopular because it is very hard for those supporting the top to see how it benefits those at the bottom.



Being purely constructive, as most in this thread are, does that free video sample showcase this?

What I did like was your video of you candidly talking about this project. There's a human connection there. That's why hustling stories are popular. That's why Earl Strickland is popular. Sure, he's a good player, but his antics are entertaining (to some). Those poker players you see on TV are popular because they're personalities. There's a good reason NBC spends so much of its time with human highlight pieces during its Olympic coverage. You may not care about horses jumping over things, but you may relate to that rider and that may be the enticement that gets you to watch something you may have never tuned into otherwise.

The most interesting thing in that video of you talking is much of what you describe is simply culture. That's why soccer is 'boring' for you, but baseball is boring for others. There's something about soccer that isn't boring or billions wouldn't watch it. That connection with the Steelers you describe is a product of culture. Years and years of investment with that city, that franchise, and the people develop that culture. A new sport doesn't have that culture in that city. Lots of sports have made the mistake of assuming that simply putting a city name with no connection would create these kinds of rivalries. Those human connections, those cultural connections are very important and they take time to develop, often generations or longer. Does this financial model allow that to happen, that's what you have to ask yourself.
Wow,
Well, first I want to thank you very much for taking the time to discuss this with me. I think that what you are saying is very true and possibly 100% true. The problem is that we are not talking about a business that is thriving or even on the edge of working well. I think that the assumption that the only way to make pool a great sport is to sell it to the masses is a long gone impossibility. So, the analogy of music doesn't work because the music in itself is a product. The people who play it are in a different category, such as Rock stars making millions and high quality violinists in a symphony orchestra making $500 a week. It has nothing to do with their talent, it has to do with the marketability of their talent. In the same sense, pool players don't have a marketable talent in the US. Considering this, I decided to try to convince players that they are able to make their own destiny. They don't have to hope that it catches on with the general public.

My feeling is also, that if pool is played every day by every person in the country and you still can't make a living out of playing it, it is still a broken business.

As far as the $9.95 is concerned, this is an amount that I thought it had to be considering the possible number of players that would or could get involved. And yes, $10,000 could change the world of pool. According to my plan, the winning team of 6 players would get about $875.00 each and the losing team of 6 players would get $575.00 each. That is better than any monthly tournament is paying out for just the first place in most instances.

Another interesting point that you brought up, that this is trickle down economics. This is exactly the opposite of trickle down economics. Trickle down economics gives the money to rich people in hopes that some of it will fall out of their pockets and it can be picked up by the poor. This system gives the money directly to the poor, the pool players. We are now in a trickle down system, because the promoters or producers take the money, use what they need to make the extravaganza that everyone thinks is so wonderful and nothing is left to give to the players. In fact, most of the time the players themselves foot the bills. That has to change or else no players in general will make any money.

I say that it is up to the players to make this work, not because of guilt, we are way past guilt in this business. I say it because it is absolutely true. I am offering players, with intentions of playing pool for a living, a way to make it work for themselves. If they don't understand it or just reject it out right, it will go away, period. I'm older than most of you, and I lived with a pro pool player when I grew up. I know what the deal is, and I know that the way things are going now, nothing is going to change unless the whole basic business is turned around. Maybe I can't do it, but I am going to try. I'm asking you to look past the obvious usual problems with the website or how big a picture is and really look at the basis of my argument.

Thanks,
Jim
 
i think these matches (with good editing etc) are a great opportunity to capture a game's 'intimacy' a little more closely than a sterile commercial production does. for example, you could potentially listen to the team and player conversations, interactions - and reactions etc

with that said, rather than always relying on commentators, i think it would be interesting to hear whats going on at each of the team's table during the match...

just a thought
have a great day
 
:)

i think these matches (with good editing etc) are a great opportunity to capture a game's 'intimacy' a little more closely than a sterile commercial production does. for example, you could potentially listen to the team and player conversations, interactions - and reactions etc

with that said, rather than always relying on commentators, i think it would be interesting to hear whats going on at each of the team's table during the match...

just a thought
have a great day

Actually, I thought of doing that, but I didn't want to make them worry about what they may say about the other team. I may do a little of it, but it will take a bit more work on the audio side.

Thanks,
Jim
 
Jason, I agree with this. I bought a Jim Murnak case because its a good high quality product. At home, my Murnak butterfly case sits between my Jack Justis 3x4 and my John Barton cigarette case.

Jim is well known for his cases, but not much so for his video work. Here is one example of his work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jpFO1Laeq0#t=01m55s

The same martial arts instructor teaching the same moves, the video was not edited or filmed by Jim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow59jF4s2Jk#t=00m40s

I would buy it to watch pros like Tony Robles, Jennifer Barretta, and Earl duke it out in 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, straight pool in 22 games in a race to 12. It's not a fuzzy webstream that I can only watch on my computer screen. Jim filmed this in HD, so I'm not embarrassed to invite my friends over for dinner and watch this on TV from the comfort of my couch.

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.
~ Adam Smith

:)
 
Bob,
I would say you are absolutely right if you have no interest in making a living playing pool. But if you would love to wake up every day knowing that you could get to a point where you only play pool and it pays your bills and more, then you are absolutely wrong. What Tony Robles makes on a City team in a Pro league could be the most important thing that has happened to pool in 50 years. The problem is that this will not come from outside. It will only come from the thousands of future pro players who could make it happen for themselves. I am offering a vehicle, but I can't drive it. It is up to you.

Thanks,
Jim

Sorry Jim, but I don't get the guilt thing? Again, why do I as a consumer give a crap about a "pro's" (let's take Tony's name out of this. I hope he makes millions. He is a great guy) income level? I need to be compelled to watch the event. I need to care. At $9.95 a whack, I have absolutely NO interest.

I am sure you have your heart and soul invested in this project but you seem a bit naive. You got some great advice. You need to take a step back and analyze what advice you have been given.

Bob
 
Last edited:
In reference to Jim's responses:

"Where would Basketball be without Michael Jordan, or golf without Tiger Woods? Having heroes at the top of a sport is how young people are brought in. When many young people want to play a sport, even when there are thousands to one who actually makes it, businesses grow. These new players need equipment, they need lessons and they need a place to play. All of this can happen if it is worth being a pool player." - https://www.poolamericasports.com/

This is a trickle down system in that you're creating an upper class that by doing so creates or enables a lower class. You're not giving the money directly to the youth to develop from the bottom up, or directly to a manufacturer to kickstart production but rather to the professional player themselves. The professional player is the top of the development chain, and therefore, by giving them success the hope is that it trickles down to motivate and aspire those below them. Where there is interest, there is often industry. From what I can tell from watching your video and your website this is a chief operating premise under which to promote industry scale change, so feel free to add to it.

This premise needs the masses to work if we're talking enough money to motivate people, particularly parents, that this is a viable career. We're talking both a considerable sum of money for certain players and a quantity of players making a substantial sum to make this viable. I'll give you one good example of the kind of scale we're talking about to really effect this kind of change: soccer.

Soccer is growing, but not at the pace many thought it would. It's one of the top participation sports in the country. Soccer is the second most popular professional sport for the ages of 12-24 (only the NFL is higher). Demographic and cultural changes will eventually make soccer rise up the ranks, potentially even challenging traditional American sports, but it isn't there yet. Despite it's popularity, many NCAA Division 1 programs do not have a men's soccer team. None of the SEC, or Big 12, and only part of the Big 10 and PAC 12. In the two revenue sports I mentioned, these are the driving forces behind millions of dollars, with some of those programs generating revenue in sports like baseball that are not considered as being revenue generators. Yet, they have little or no interest in even fielding men's programs.

The minimum salary for an MLS player, the professional soccer league in this country, is about $33,000. World class players sit on benches in other countries' leagues because they have been told they would make more money doing some mundane job in this country than they would following their dream. This is a league with an estimated 25 million fans, and an average attendance of over 18,000!

Sports like basketball, golf, football, baseball, even soccer as it grows are like the music industry: they have a product they can sell to the masses through distribution channels. Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan did not create golf or basketball. These were fully realized, televised and sponsored industries before they ever came around. They already had tours and television deals and means to pay their players living, if not in some cases, considerable wages. Those two players certainly helped promote their sports, but they are as much product of their sports having those vehicles in place to allow them that opportunity.

We know the current pool business model will not work because it is unlike these other industries. This is an industry supporting industry. Our tournament players are essentially are essentially low stakes gambling with the house taking a pretty good cut. There's no outside money, and that's the real problem. I don't know how your system changes that. How is a pool player on this site buying a video much different than that same pool player going to a tournament as basically fish. It's fundamentally the same: not outside money. It's pool players supporting pool players. That's a fundamental difference between those ventures and pool.
 
Last edited:
I don't know

Sorry Jim, but I don't get the guilt thing? Again, why do I as a consumer give a crap about a "pro's" (let's take Tony's name out of this. I hope he makes millions. He is a great guy) income level? I need to be compelled to watch the event. I need to care. At $9.95 a whack, I have absolutely NO interest.

I am sure you have your heart and soul invested in this project but you seem a bit naive. You got some great advice. You need to take a step back and analyze what advice you have been given.

Bob

Bob,
I'm not sure how to answer this. You're telling me that the players, who are fantastic players, are of no interest to you. You are saying that the idea of making a Pro league that future pro players can look forward to is of no interest to you. You are saying that having pool be a real career means nothing to you.

Well Bob, I guess you're just not interested. Why are you spending your time telling me that pool and nothing about it interests you.

There is one thing that I have noticed. 300 people have watched the free game I put out a few days ago. They watched Earl Strickland play Zion Zvi in a 10 ball match. If only that many people bought the match, we would have a "go" for this system. Not sure why that $9.95 is so expensive when it comes to helping other players.

What does interest you? Let's start there.

Thanks,
Jim
 
Bob,
I'm not sure how to answer this. You're telling me that the players, who are fantastic players, are of no interest to you. Nope- not saying that at all. I enjoy watching a good pool match with good players. I like leagues and tournaments. You are saying that the idea of making a Pro league that future pro players can look forward to is of no interest to you. I'm saying you need to find a more compelling reason than a pro pool player make money. You are saying that having pool be a real career means nothing to you. Correct. It does not affect me in the slightest. Outside of a few people that can make "pro" money now, there really isn't a pool career path now. And life goes on

Well Bob, I guess you're just not interested. Why are you spending your time telling me that pool and nothing about it interests you. Never said that. I owned a pool room, published a magazine about pool, wrote books, and published books about pool. You are very quick to judge without facts. Again, you got some great advice from people. Listen to what they are saying. You might not use but 10% but it could make the difference in your success.

There is one thing that I have noticed. 300 people have watched the free game I put out a few days ago. They watched Earl Strickland play Zion Zvi in a 10 ball match. If only that many people bought the match, we would have a "go" for this system. Not sure why that $9.95 is so expensive when it comes to helping other players. Again, it is not my obligation or concern to help the players. That is not my responsibility. And $9.95 is too much for what you are offering. Trust me on that. I DID make my living (at least for awhile) on pool.

What does interest you? Let's start there.

Thanks,
Jim

Apparently I have to write something so what I typed in green above will appear. So my response is above.....
 
Thanks

This is a trickle down system in that you're creating an upper class that by doing so creates or enables a lower class. You're not giving the money directly to the youth to develop from the bottom up, or directly to a manufacturer to kickstart production but rather to the professional player themselves. The professional player is the top of the development chain, and therefore, by giving them success the hope is that it trickles down to motivate and aspire those below them. Where there is interest, there is often industry. From what I can tell from watching your video and your website this is a chief operating premise under which to promote industry scale change, so feel free to add to it.

This premise needs the masses to work if we're talking enough money to motivate people, particularly parents, that this is a viable career. We're talking both a considerable sum of money for certain players and a quantity of players making a substantial sum to make this viable. I'll give you one good example of the kind of scale we're talking about to really effect this kind of change: soccer.

Soccer is growing, but not at the pace many thought it would. It's one of the top participation sports in the country. Soccer is the second most popular professional sport for the ages of 12-24 (only the NFL is higher). Demographic and cultural changes will eventually make soccer rise up the ranks, potentially even challenging traditional American sports, but it isn't there yet. Despite it's popularity, many NCAA Division 1 programs do not have a men's soccer team. None of the SEC, or Big 12, and only part of the Big 10 and PAC 12. In the two revenue sports I mentioned, these are the driving forces behind millions of dollars, with some of those programs generating revenue in sports like baseball that are not considered as being revenue generators. Yet, they have little or no interest in even fielding men's programs.

The minimum salary for an MLS player, the professional soccer league in this country, is about $33,000. World class players sit on benches in other countries' leagues because they have been told they would make more money doing some mundane job in this country than they would following their dream. This is a league with an estimated 25 million fans, and an average attendance of over 18,000!

Sports like basketball, golf, football, baseball, even soccer as it grows are like the music industry: they have a product they can sell to the masses through distribution channels. Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan did not create golf or basketball. These were fully realized, televised and sponsored industries before they ever came around. They already had tours and television deals and means to pay their players living, if not in some cases, considerable wages. Those two players certainly helped promote their sports, but they are as much product of their sports having those vehicles in place to allow them that opportunity.

We know the current pool business model will not work because it is unlike these other industries. This is an industry supporting industry. Our tournament players are essentially are essentially low stakes gambling with the house taking a pretty good cut. There's no outside money, and that's the real problem. I don't know how your system changes that. How is a pool player on this site buying a video much different than that same pool player going to a tournament as basically fish. It's fundamentally the same: not outside money. It's pool players supporting pool players. That's a fundamental difference between those ventures and pool.[/QUOTE]

Answer:


If you are talking about trickle down interest, then you are right. Interest must come from those who want to aspire to being one of those on top.

Still really not understanding your argument. You tell me about soccer, saying that they possibly have the biggest mass appeal of any sport, and tell me that soccer players don't make money. Then you tell me that the only way for pool to work is to have mass appeal. Which argument is it?

You give me a "right on reading" of the pool industry, but have no solutions, other than doing what I think will work is not a good idea.

The fact is that we have to make pros the centerpiece of the business, not a cue stick company or a table company.

You are right about one thing, I do want to build an upper class of players to aspire to. At this point, they are making less than you do. You said that I don't want to give the money to youth to develop them and you are exactly right. You don't develop anything that there is no interest in. If young people see shining players on the hill, there will be interest in becoming them. That is what I think will make it all work out.

The fact is that probably more people play pool in this country than all other sports combined, but does that help the industry become vibrant and support people to play for a living. No.

Give me your solution. I don't mind going around and around with you because it is interesting, but now it is time for you to tell me your solution. Everyone sees what I have decided will work, now what do you think will work that hasn't failed many times before?

Will be interested in your answer. I do appreciate your input to this discussion.

Thanks,
Jim
 
Thanks Bob

Apparently I have to write something so what I typed in green above will appear. So my response is above.....

I appreciate your comments. I would say that since you are not interested in becoming a pro player, I can't expect you to be interested in my idea. That is really the crux of it.

How do you know that what I am offering is not worth $9.95? You didn't buy it.

Thanks,
Jim
 
I appreciate your comments. I would say that since you are not interested in becoming a pro player, I can't expect you to be interested in my idea. That is really the crux of it.

How do you know that what I am offering is not worth $9.95? You didn't buy it.

Thanks,
Jim

Jim- it is not me that you have to ask this question. You said it yourself:

300 people have watched the free game I put out a few days ago. They watched Earl Strickland play Zion Zvi in a 10 ball match. If only that many people bought the match, we would have a "go" for this system.

Why did they not buy? You need to ask them. I already told you, I would never spend $9.95 to watch a pool match. Ever.

I suggest you break down how and why you came up with $9.95, other than "that is how much the pool players need to make". Why not $10.05? Or $7.23? You need to take a look at your business model again. As the old saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Bob
 
Jim,

Please don't let AZ demoralize you. You have the balls to put your money where your mouth is. I think the main reason to buy is because you're showing world class play, delivering a quality product at an extremely attractive price.

I don't think you should waste your breath on people who will not buy at any price. You don't need to convince everyone to buy, just the potential customers who will see your product makes sense to buy.
 
Jim,

Please don't let AZ demoralize you. You have the balls to put your money where your mouth is. I think the main reason to buy is because you're showing world class play, delivering a quality product at an extremely attractive price.

I don't think you should waste your breath on people who will not buy at any price. You don't need to convince everyone to buy, just the potential customers who will see your product makes sense to buy.

Yup. I hear you ctyhntr. I will go away. Since I was exactly where he is once upon a time, I was trying to save him some of the learning curve. But for the record, I don't think it is "an extremely attractive price"; I agree that you need to convince the potential customers. He had 300 that saw his product and did not buy. He needs to find out why.
 
Ok

Yup. I hear you ctyhntr. I will go away. Since I was exactly where he is once upon a time, I was trying to save him some of the learning curve. But for the record, I don't think it is "an extremely attractive price"; I agree that you need to convince the potential customers. He had 300 that saw his product and did not buy. He needs to find out why.

I'm not sure that all have decided one way or another yet. There are a few things I can say about this so far. First, it wasn't worth trying if I couldn't get enough money to make it worth it for the players. So, If it was less money and it didn't really pay them anything, it would die anyway. Another thing I have realized is that people are talking like there is some formula that works and I don't see it, but the fact is that nothing has worked yet. That is why pool is in such bad shape. Nothing has worked, so my idea has just as much chance as any other. I just have to make people understand what it is. If then, they don't care about it or any money is too much, then my idea will go down like all the others. But, I'm willing to wait to see what happens. This is one of the few ideas tried that actually can work for a sustained length of time without kissing someone else's ass. But we'll see what happens.

Jim
 
against pros

Jim,

Please don't let AZ demoralize you. You have the balls to put your money where your mouth is. I think the main reason to buy is because you're showing world class play, delivering a quality product at an extremely attractive price.

I don't think you should waste your breath on people who will not buy at any price. You don't need to convince everyone to buy, just the potential customers who will see your product makes sense to buy.

I do have to say that there is a pronounced animosity against pro players, with no one defending them. Should I take from that that AZ is mostly league players that have no interest in going up the ladder?
 
Jim,

If you search the forums, you'll see rants against leagues. There are alot of good people on AZ. There are also those who have nothing better to do except complain. When they're not on AZ, they're probably yelling young kids to get off their lawn. As for NPR, do any of those posters even play pool?

Recent thread on Tony Palma's new movie, 9-ball comes to mind. People were already bad mouthing the movie before it came out. To me, that's no different than Spike Lee's comments on Django Unchained, making complaints on a movie he never even seen. I reserve my judgement until I see the movie with my own eyes.

I do have to say that there is a pronounced animosity against pro players, with no one defending them. Should I take from that that AZ is mostly league players that have no interest in going up the ladder?
 
Good Luck to you Jim

https://www.poolamericasports.com

Please look at the site and consider buying the game. Many players are hoping you do.

Please comment as much as possible.

Thanks,
Jim

Jim- you have a great start at this...I too have done some marketing and simply put lets us get to know the players, suck us in, and make us develop a personal interest angle to watch these matches and not only will I watch (Mr. Sat Nite Sandbag Sam) but the general public too would at least have a need to be interested. The same can be said for the other venue formed in Vegas.

I feel the folks here on the forum for the most part are very intelligent and would be very critical in a way to encourage you to be better but while they would consider purchasing the entertainment your target market may be far south of this crowd. The average young C league player would play just to make a connection to the industry and since your starting on a regional basis: Marketing awareness here may help you discover what adjustments you will need to capture a "general public" draw....live audiences are a start.(Hated hockey til I saw a pro game live been hooked since) Best of everything to your crew there seems to be enough passion to make a go of it. Jim

p.s Consider a free match viewing with so many face book "likes" or re-posts the cheapies can help raise awareness and still see a match that was played a few weeks ago.
 
I do have to say that there is a pronounced animosity against pro players, with no one defending them. Should I take from that that AZ is mostly league players that have no interest in going up the ladder?

I believe you are mistaken. At least on some points.

I don't believe that there are many folks here that "are against" pro players. Just because folks don't believe that they need to subsidize "pro" players income in order for them to actually be "pro" doesn't mean that they "are against" them....

In your model and your descriptions, you seem to be making the statement that the general pool playing public is required, and even somewhat obligated, to fund this (and/or other) ventures in order to provide a living playing pool for these "pro" players. That attitude is what is generating the pushback here.

How many league players aspire to "go up the ladder"? I bet not that many. And there are undoubtedly many reasons for that. But one reason is that there is no clear vision and understanding of what is up there at the top of that ladder. Because it doesn't exist. (Your argument was that AZB must be mostly league players, since they don't want to go up, and that attitude will not serve you well, but that's another argument.) I bet there are more league players than active non-league players out there, at least in this country. Where do you expect to get your audience from?

Of course there are many other reasons, too. Most of us aren't that good, or can understand that we will never be that good. Many realize that the time required to "be that good" is more than they are willing to commit to. Many league players enjoy playing, but hate watching, even their own friends.

You are expecting the mass of league and recreational players across the country to feel the same way about pool that you do, and I get that. I think that expectation is a bit on the optimistic side. Your cart is before the horse. You are trying to get people to buy into the promise of big league pool, but if any of the other big league sports had to rely on PPV in order to become successful, none of them would have survived. I realize that it's not what anyone wants to hear, but TV....TV....TV.... and big crowds to see the events in person are what is required to be successful. Yes, I understand that if no one does anything to change it, it will never change, and for that I applaud you. I really hope that what you are doing becomes successful.

I am interested in following your progress here, but no, I won't be buying the PPV's. My available money is better spent on other things, in my little world. I don't have a ton of extra money currently, so throwing $9.95 at something isn't something I do lightly. I think that perhaps there are more people like me out there, as opposed to those who can drop $9.95 easily on things. Those sorts are your target market, without a doubt.

I wish you luck. I hope it becomes successful. I mean that sincerely.
 
I want to support the players

For me, this is a great idea because I've always been looking for a way to support my favorite players. I always thought that someday people would start using Kickstarter to generate interest for a matchup or a tournament.

I also thought that one day there would be a way for me to pay to watch a matchup, and I choose a player to win. If that player wins, then he keeps my $10, if he loses then his opponent gets most of it. Or someway that I could directly give to the player I'm hoping to watch play and win.

Being an Earl Strickland fan, I paid the $9.95 to watch this match. I'm glad that he will receive a piece of that as well as some going to the other players. I feel like I can show these players how much I enjoy watching them compete by directly putting money into the prize fund.

Thank you Jim.
 
Back
Top