"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?

[One Pocket John]

What this all boils down to is shooting pool using the exact vertical axis of the QB and working off of the tangent line for position on the next shot.

Now since the exact center axis of the QB is very difficult to hit all the time a TOI is used (you begin to focus on the QB and tip placement more). Your chances of striking the center axis of the QB have increased.

I know I cant hit the exact center or vertical axis of the QB consistently, but I can put a TOI on the QB. I'm a right handed player, on straight in shots after the QB has made contact with the OB it will slide off the right side a little. Using TOI the QB does not slide to the side after contact.

This tells me that I am not seeing the center of the QB. I think this could be a perception issue.

John

 

[CJ Wiley]

when you use a firmer "shot speed," the spin won't be much of a factor.

Oh, so the TOI inside method is imparting inside English after all.

I don't think you can technically hit the cue ball with the "Touch OF Inside" and not impart some English and I've never represented that anyone could.

The thing I am adiment about is to NOT TRY to spin the cue ball. The thing practically everyone thinks at first is the word Inside MUST be followed with the word English. I have a lot of patience regarding this because everyone has been exposed to "Inside English," however, NO ONE appears to have been exposed to TOI. The only way to learn TOI is without trying to apply "English," although soon in your training you will learn that you CAN apply English if you need, it just requires a slightly different "shot speed".

After you learn the TOI you will be amazed how easy it is. The complicated thing, is to explain it in writing. I've tried to do this to the best of my ability and through this process I understand it better than I would have ever imagined humanly possible (for myself).

It's just a natural "law" of life, the more you teach effectiveness, the better you understand yourself and your own personal techniques (in a variety of ways).

When you try the drill of hitting the cue ball straight up and making it come down a half diamond to the left or right you will experience for yourself that this a very minute amount of "spin".....{and} when you use a firmer "shot speed," the spin won't be much of a factor. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley

 

[The Renfro]

Nonsense. TOI doesn't change the OB's approach to the pocket (or increase the pocket's margin for error in any other way). You can get away with squishy claims about the psychology of avoiding one side of the CB, but once you get physical it's either true or false - and this claim is still false.

pj
chgo

PJ you do realize that eventually TOI will make it to Dr. Dave's site and at that point you will have to embrace it and spew it forth verbatim.... Beat the rush and try it for yourself....

LOL Hope you are well and make Derby or Tunica.....:thumbup:

Chris

 

[CJ Wiley]

It increases "margin of error," by utilizing the 3Part Pocket System & Pocket Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
Nonsense. TOI doesn't change the OB's approach to the pocket (or increase the pocket's margin for error[ in any other way). You can get away with squishy claims about the psychology of avoiding one side of the CB, but once you get physical it's either true or false - and this claim is still false.

pj
chgo

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

PJ you do realize that eventually TOI will make it to Dr. Dave's site and at that point you will have to embrace it and spew it forth verbatim.... Beat the rush and try it for yourself....

LOL Hope you are well and make Derby or Tunica.....:thumbup:

Chris

Touch Of Inside (TOI) increases "margin of error," by utilizing the 3PART POCKET SYSTEM - Margin For Error is another thing entirely. :wink:

margin for error
Web definitions
Margin for Error is a 1943 American drama film directed by Otto Preminger. The screenplay by Lillie Hayward and Samuel Fuller is based...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_for_Error
More info - Source - Wikipedia

 

[Patrick Johnson]

CJ:
Touch Of Inside (TOI) increases "margin of error," by utilizing the 3PART POCKET SYSTEM

Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, CJ. The pocket's margin of error ("pocket slop") is a physical thing, not a concept, and it can't be changed with an aiming or shooting technique.

It's already well known that paying closer attention to where you hit the cue ball and aiming more precisely at the pocket can improve your pocketing percentage, but not because you've increased the pocket margin of error.

Giving old techniques snappy new names (more attention to tip/CB accuracy = "TOI"; aiming more precisely = "3-part pocket") is good marketing, but it doesn't change how things work.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

Are you suggesting that we all have the same margin of error when we play pool?

Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, CJ. The pocket's margin of error ("pocket slop") is a physical thing, not a concept, and it can't be changed with an aiming or shooting technique.


pj
chgo

Are you suggesting that we all have the same margin of error when we play pool? The pocket is roughly twice as big as the pool ball so there is a margin of error is there not? You are sure this can't be increased or decreased?

Are there any exceptions that you are aware of pertaining to ball pocketing or position play?

Golf courses are a physical thing, not a concept, are you saying there's no technique (drawing or fading for instance) to increase margin for error?

A tennis court is a physical thing, not a concept are you taking the position that topspin doesn't give you more margin of error playing tennis?

I can answer all these questions, can you?

I wonder what the margin of error will be on your answers?

 

[rhatten]

CJ... Still no TOI video release? Can't wait to see it sir!! I've been on your site but nothing has changed there. Do you have an ETA on it for us?

Thx

Randy

 

[duckie]

cte sucks !!!!!!!!

 

[John Brumback]

The champion bank players will "bend" or "hold" their straight back banks so they curve into the pocket when going down the rail. This creates a "zone" that is bigger than if you just banked the ball straight at the pocket.

Obviously no one can change the physical size of a pocket, however, the techniques I'm discussing {though deflecting and/or spinning} change the normal path the ball approaches the pocket. This change makes the pocket "zone" more receptive to accepting the ball.

We have always called it "bigger"{POCKET (for pool)} and if you feel more comfortable you could call it "more receptive." In bowling they say the pro bowler is curving/spinning the ball into the "POCKET," of the pins....it just would sound redundant to say the ball is going into the "pocket" of the pocket.


bowling pocket pins

Not just straightbacks.It works on all banks. John B.

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's a LOT of information to reduce to just over an hour.

CJ... Still no TOI video release? Can't wait to see it sir!! I've been on your site but nothing has changed there. Do you have an ETA on it for us?

Thx

Randy

I appreciate your anticipation, Randy, we're working MANY hours to get this video polished and ready for you. I've been up all night for the fifth night in a row helping the post production staff.

That's why I'm posting as much as I have been, we're all waiting on computers to download and editing. There's a LOT of information to reduce to just over an hour. I did well over 10 hours of demonstration and explanation.

It looks like one more night to put the finishing "Touches" (of inside ) together and it will be up asap. I'll let everyone know as soon as I can.

 

[CJ Wiley]

pj, I have some great news about margin of error and pocket zones

Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, CJ. The pocket's margin of error ("pocket slop") is a physical thing, not a concept, and it can't be changed with an aiming or shooting technique.


pj, I have some great news about margin of error and pocket zones - our techniques will even work for you....IF you will try them :wink:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley
The champion bank players will "bend" or "hold" their straight back banks so they curve into the pocket when going down the rail. This creates a "zone" that is bigger than if you just banked the ball straight at the pocket.

Obviously no one can change the physical size of a pocket, however, the techniques I'm discussing {though deflecting and/or spinning} change the normal path the ball approaches the pocket. This change makes the pocket "zone" more receptive to accepting the ball.

We have always called it "bigger"{POCKET (for pool)} and if you feel more comfortable you could call it "more receptive." In bowling they say the pro bowler is curving/spinning the ball into the "POCKET," of the pins....it just would sound redundant to say the ball is going into the "pocket" of the pocket.





Not just straightbacks.It works on all banks. John B.

"Bank Pool Secrets of a World Champion" by John Brumback
Click here to order the DVD

Click here to order JB shirts

 

[Patrick Johnson]

CJ:
Touch Of Inside (TOI) increases "margin of error," by utilizing the 3PART POCKET SYSTEM

Me:
Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, CJ. The pocket's margin of error ("pocket slop") is a physical thing, not a concept, and it can't be changed with an aiming or shooting technique.

CJ:
Are you suggesting that we all have the same margin of error when we play pool?

We all face the same physical margin of error: how much bigger the pocket is than the ball. This is a fixed physical feature like the size of the table - we can't change either one by our method of play. [Except for some banks, where we can change the physical size of the pocket opening by coming at it from a different angle. But this doesn't apply to other shots, and TOI doesn't help in this way.]

CJ:
Golf courses are a physical thing, not a concept, are you saying there's no technique (drawing or fading for instance) to increase margin for error?

A tennis court is a physical thing, not a concept are you taking the position that topspin doesn't give you more margin of error playing tennis?

These are misleading analogies. Golf and tennis (and bowling) curve the ball by spinning it, which can give a better approach angle to the target. As I said above, we can get a slightly better approach angle with some bank shots, but not with non-bank shots - and TOI doesn't change that.

I wonder what the margin of error will be on your answers?

I wonder when you'll address your innacurate claims with something more than bad analogies and cute quips and pictures.

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

Nit pick! Of course you aren't changing the angle to the pocket with a TOI. CJ has said that. You are changing where the ball consistently should hit the pocket. Aiming for center cue ball and hitting with a little left or right spin instead of center, may still hit the pocket. But where will whitey go when it hits a rail since you may have right, left or no spin on it?

Hitting center ball consistently is extremely hard to do. Nit pick that. If hitting to one side of the cue ball is more reliable, I prefer to do that. It gives me more control over the cue ball and allows me to pocket more balls. I know why I miss by where it hits the pocket.

Suggestion-Actually work with the technique away from the keyboard. I know you'll never do this, but I've said it. Any reply without learning the method and giving it honest table time would be a good reason to not read any more of your posts on the subject. Now, multi-quote this post and be even more pathetic...or take CJ's bet for a dollar and see whose technique has more merit.

Best,
Mike

You won't even attempt either one.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Oh, so the TOI inside method is imparting inside English after all.

I don't think you can technically hit the cue ball with the "Touch OF Inside" and not impart some English and I've never represented that anyone could....

The thing I am adiment about is to NOT TRY to spin the cue ball. The thing practically everyone thinks at first is the word Inside MUST be followed with the word English. I have a lot of patience regarding this because everyone has been exposed to "Inside English," however, NO ONE appears to have been exposed to TOI. The only way to learn TOI is without trying to apply "English," although soon in your training you will learn that you CAN apply English if you need, it just requires a slightly different "shot speed"....

you will experience for yourself that this a very minute amount of "spin".....{and} when you use a firmer "shot speed," the spin won't be much of a factor. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley

BasementDweller,

I have been playing with outside & inside english for many many years & since trying the TOI, I can confirm that what CJ is saying is correct. My focus has been on the spin & swerve aspects of english all of my playing time, but with TOI it is about how little to the inside can I hit the ball & get the squirt/deflection required to pocket the ball.

It is a totally different mind set. The TOI works. I have not, YET, had the time to devote to it in order to refine the position aspects of using it, but it is fantastic for pocketing balls in a consistant manner. If the speed of the shot is correct the spin effect is negligible.

That being said, I am at times surprised that I do get spin on the ball at times when I do not expect it, but...that is a factor of me not executing properly but also shows as CJ said one can get spin if & when one wishes. It is shot speed related IMHO.

I hope this helps in some way.

Regards to You &

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... with ... TOI ... You are changing where the ball consistently should hit the pocket.

No, you're not. This is a second inaccurate claim which has also been refuted but not seriously addressed.

Hitting center ball consistently is extremely hard to do.

Hitting any part of the CB is extremely hard to do - TOI doesn't change that.

... If hitting to one side of the cue ball is more reliable, I prefer to do that.

I might prefer it too if it was really more reliable - but it isn't. (As has been said many times) stroke errors will produce the same shot errors no matter where you're trying to hit the CB. Only reducing stroke errors changes that.

It gives me more control over the cue ball and allows me to pocket more balls.

That may be true - don't you want to know how?

I know why I miss by where it hits the pocket.

This is another TOI claim which I doubt.

Any reply without learning the method and giving it honest table time would be a good reason to not read any more of your posts on the subject.

Feel free to ignore what I have to say about this. I don't want to force any information on you.

take CJ's bet for a dollar

Didn't notice that. Where is it?

pj
chgo

 

[duckie]

Of course hitting center ball is hard.......if you don't practice doing it, duh.

Y'all practice using this TOI, but don't have the same displine to practicing hitting center ball? Sounds like being lazy to me.

Practice better.

I know I'm just a nobody banger, but I can stroke through any part of the CB I need to at any cue angle. I can hit center ball jacked upped. So, I guess I must be a pool god then if doing so is so hard for the average mortal pool player.

Yes I said stroke through the CB and not hit. Big difference. Just like you punch through someone, you stroke through the CB.

But hey once again, recently I just started using the small end of the stick, so I really don't know what I'm talking about but hey, it doesn't stop others from doing the same thing, so why not.....

 

[Patrick Johnson]

CJ:
...the techniques I'm discussing {though deflecting and/or spinning} change the normal path the ball approaches the pocket.

This is not true. The object ball starts from the same spot and does not curve, so there's only one path to the center of the pocket, and that's still your objective even though you think differently about how to hit it.

If the ball approaches the pocket on another path, then you've missed the center of the pocket.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

The opening of the pocket is 4 1/2" or what ever. The path to the opening of the pocket is x + or - y degrees.

Now with a stroke through the center of the CB the path to the contact point(s) that will get the OB into the pocket is z + or - y degrees. If you do not hit center CB & have not taken that fact into account, you have now decreased your margin of error to hit with in that Y degree range because you have unitentionally introduced, cue ball squirt/deflection & swerve factors. If you do hit those few points on the OB to send it into the pocket you were merely lucky as your unintended stroke caused an unintended set of circumstaance that just hapened by luck to still get the OB into the pocket. Or... YOU MIS.

Now if one plans & intends to hit the CB to the inside intending to get CB squirt/deflection & you also hit it with a speed that will all but take out the swerve factor & spin induce throw (which is rather easy to do), I think it is fair to say that one will rarely if ever cross over to the other side of the CB & get the opposite of one's intentions. So... one could actually aim the CB for a center strike to mis the pocket & the CB squirt/deflection can still cause the OB to be pocketed into the full hit side of the pocket all the way to the other side. (This fact allows for an unintentional mis alignment of the shot.)

The above scenario can not be intentionally done with a center stroke through the ball. However one could have accidently aimed incorrectly where a true center strike would result in a mis but also accidently missed the center & applied the appropriate amount of squirt/deflection, swerve, AND spin to throw the OB into the pocket IF, & this is a BIG IF, one also accidently missed the center of the CB on the correct side & accidently put the correct spin onto the CB, but IF one missed center on the other side of the ball the mis-alligned shot will mis even farther than with the intended center strike.

So... with correct intended english or TOI one has effectively increased the intended 'aiming size' if not the actual size of the pocket.

So... TOI & intended english give one a larger margin of error, not in the actual size of the pocket, but instead the wider margin of error is with the aim & the stroke. One can aim for perhaps a 1/2 ball center strike mis (or perhaps even more depending on the length parameters of the shot) and still pocket the ball from one side to the other side of the pocket depending on how far to the intended side of the CB strike one actaully strikes the CB.

I know that CJ does not addvocate aiming for a mis, but one could just as one might do when using intended english to 'cheat' the pocket.

So... my conclusion is, that when using TOI or intended english one is playing pool with intention to control one's efforts & when one is playing with the intention of a center ball hit, one is playing more of a game of hope & luck. (No offense meant to anyone as that is just my opinion & we are just discussing the different options)

I know which way I have been playing for my whole playing life.

ALL of the above is just my take & are just my humble opinions.

To PJ & others, I fully understand that one can still mis using TOI & intended english if one mis aligns too far outside of the pocket or if one strikes the CB too far to the intended side or crosses over to the other side or hits center when aiming outside of the pocket.

The last possibilty is why CJ suggests aiming inside of the full hit side of the pocket for a center strike on the CB & THEN do a parallel shift to just the TOI. If the stroke misses to center the ball still goes in & if hit with the TOI the ball still goes into the middle & if the stroke misses further to the other side than just the TOI the ball still goes into the thin hit side of the pocket. I'd say that that increases the margin of error of the stroke.

So, here's another point of my conclusion. One's aim can be off, out side of the pocket & the TOI can get the OB into the full hit side of the pocket, hence the increase of 'aiming' margin of error. IMHO Only one combination can cause a mis. A ball aligned outside of the pocket AND an unintended center stirke or a complete cross over to the other side which for all practicle purposes is simply not going to happen & if that is an option then one should be working on nothing but their stoke.

I hope this helps or opens up something else for consideration & discussion.

Regards &

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if one plans to hit the CB to the inside intending to get CB squirt/deflection & you also hit it with a speed that will all but take out the swerve factor & spin induce throw, I think it is fair to say that one will rarely if ever cross over to the other side of the CB & get the opposite of one's intentions.

If your stroke varies a maximum of 1/4 inch left or right, then you have to aim to hit at least 1/4 inch from center to eliminate the risk of hitting the other side of center. If you aim only "a hair" off center like TOI dictates, then your stroke cannot vary more than "a hair" either way.

More importantly, missing the tip/CB contact point causes the same kind of miss no matter where you're tryin to hit the CB:

- If you try to hit the CB on center and miss it to the right of center the CB squirts to the left of your intended CB path
- If you try to hit the CB off center but miss to the right of that off center spot the CB still squirts the same amount to the left of your intended CB path.

This has been said several times in these TOI threads. Isn't it time you actually thought about it?

So... with correct intended english or TOI one has effectively increased the intended 'aiming size' if not the actual size of the pocket.

TOI does not increase the 'aiming size' of the pocket (I'm not even sure that means anything).

So... TOI & intended english give one a larger margin of error not in the actual sive of the pocket but instead the wider margin of error is with the stroke.

TOI does not give a wider margin of error with the stroke.

Paying more attention to hitting the CB accurately and aiming "smaller" at a part of the pocket can both increase your accuracy, and I've advocated doing those things (I've even started threads about it). You don't need TOI to hit the CB or the pocket more accurately, but if TOI gets you to pay attention to that where other methods didn't, then I wholeheartedly recommend it to you.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to point out the factual realities of TOI (and other systems we hear about here) in case there's anybody left here who cares how things really work.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

Patrick,
Will you at least admit that using TOI, might be a tool to help the shooter increase their focus?