PJ - I'm late to the thread... catch me up... what is CJ saying that's categorically false?
"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
I've been playing with english, as I have said so many times for many, many years. I have very often shot right at the non-miscue limit, again for many, many years. I am & have been very, very focussed for many, many years.
TOI has not made me more focussed. TOI has given me another means to pocket balls than what I had been doing & allows for a different cue ball reaction after contact. I have been using both outside & inside spin for many, many years. TOI is something far different than anything I have been doing for so many years. TOI is a different focus not an increase in focus. I have always been focused on just how much off center I want to hit the CB in both the horizontal & verticle planes.
TOI, for now, is another tool in my tool box that helps me to be an even better player. I have no doubt that when I have the time to devote to fine tuning the angles & speed for position that it will become a very prominant portion of my game if not the predominant shot in my game. I would guess that it is now at least 20% or more of my game now & I am playing in an individual money league.
TOI is definitely more than just a means to increase one's focus. Why would one become more focused trying to hit a touch to one side than one would be trying to hit the true center. I do not understand that argument.
One is either a focused player or one is not. I do not see how trying to employ a touch of an inside hit on the CB would make someone more focussed than trying to hit the exact center of the CB
Again, the above are just my opinoins & I hope they are either enlightening or foster more options for discussion & consideration.
Regards &
No, it's not the same. It can work to increase your pocketing percentage without doing the specific things (increase the margin for error, decrease the effect of bad strokes, etc.) claimed for it.
Putting your words in my mouth is your (and Joey's) way of perpetuating fights while pretending to want peace. The word for it is hypocrisy.
pj
chgo
No one is saying one part of the cue ball is easier or harder to hit than another, that would be ridiculous.
One of the points is if you try to hit center you can't throw the object ball, thus creating a pocket zone. It's not about being easier or harder to pocket a ball, it's about hitting a consistent shot that you can "master". Hitting all over the cue ball may be fun, but it's not consistent.
CJ - Do you find it's more consistant pocketing balls with a Touch Low/High using a TOI?
The ball seems to deflect a little more with TOI when hit on the equator of the cue ball.
It could just be me but pocketing seems easier when I hit a little low or high with TOI. Carl
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That's oversimplified.
Any change can stimulate increased focus, even for those who think they're fully focused all the time. A common example is "new cue syndrome" - playing better with a new cue (or a new tip, or new chalk, etc., etc.) simply because you're paying more attention to whatever details are related to that.
I'd be shocked if changing the spot you're trying to hit the CB "by a hair" didn't cause you to focus more than usual on precise tip placement (and stroke), and being more precise about tip placement is well known to be an effective way to improve your shooting.
Of course, this kind of explanation is boring compared to a "secret" technique with snappy new language and slogans... but it has the advantages of being intelligible and proven, reinforcing and building on established fundamental principles of good play, and not misleading about how things work.
pj
chgo
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Let's try to discuss a few points.
I'm just trying to discuss the different parameters as it is obvious that many are looking at it from different vantage points & therefore see it differently & discussing it in text with limited interaction is certainly not the best medium.
Sincerely & with Best Wishes to You &
I'm just trying to discuss the different parameters as it is obvious that many are looking at it from different vantage points & therefore see it differently & discussing it in text with limited interaction is certainly not the best medium.
Sincerely & with Best Wishes to You &
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If it's a placebo, then no lasting effect will come from using TOI. In fact, any new technique will cause a player to gain some instant gratification and improvement, only to slip back into mediocrity after the newness wears off.
More likely, after learning how to use the technique, a player will naturally get down on a shot cueing with a TOI automatically. They'll see improvement because they've added a new tool to their box, not because of increased focus. I've found this to be true after many hours of use and the placebo effect has worn off. You say this same lame thing about everything new that comes along.
Best,
Mike
No thanks. Let's pick the most important one:
Of course not. So what makes you think you can plan to what side you'll miss your CB contact point with an intended offcenter hit?
pj
chgo
I didn't say it's a placebo; I said the benefits aren't attributable to the causes claimed for it.
"New cue syndrome" doesn't last long because the cause of the increased focus (the newness of the new cue) doesn't last long. TOI's increased focus is caused by a continuing new practice, so I can understand it lasting longer - and even causing permanent improvement. We don't know how big or permanent a change this will ultimately be.
Many here are prone to believe every lame thing that comes along - I see lots of the same people among the "believers" in these system threads.
pj
chgo
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Get a feel for the pocket is my suggestion, the whole pocket,
Yes, Carl, my "master shot" is TOI, a tip below the equator - and you are correct, from my experience the middle deflects slightly more and I have to aim INSIDE the pocket (to hit the center).
I've noted in precious posts that champion players hit slightly down on the cue ball for their master shot. Every pro has a "master shot," and you will only see it if you are aware it exists. "We only recognize what we're familiar with" - such is life
This another "hint" of why the shot angle is better with TOI is superior to the amateur who aims at the center. The fact (for me) is advanced ball pocketing has a LOT to do with a developed "Feel For The Pocket," and this isn't possible trying to "aim" at the center.
Let's be realistic, can we really "aim" at the center on most cut shots? If you can you are able to do something I don't even attempt. I hit the center, however, it's a result{of using the TOI}, not an incentive.
Think about the last time you were pocketing exceptionally well, were you aware of "aiming" or did you just FEEL the object ball hit center? We've been talking about "Zen in the Martial Arts" and "Inner Tennis" lately and this is also a key to maximizing performance.
When you feel like you are part of the Game it then opens up for you. The highest performance possible is done subconsciously, not consciously. No champion player ever got there by seeing better than everyone else, they got there because they developed their feel for the Game and had the sensation of "feeling shots with their eyes".
Develop a feel for the pocket is my suggestion, the whole pocket, not just the center. Then when I talk about (in my TOI video) how I can alter the course of the cue ball by hitting the 3 Parts (instead of using spin) you will relate to what I'm recommending and how it's achieved. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, Carl, my "master shot" is TOI, a tip below the equator - and you are correct, from my experience the middle deflects slightly more and I have to aim INSIDE the pocket (to hit the center).
I've noted in precious posts that champion players hit slightly down on the cue ball for their master shot. Every pro has a "master shot," and you will only see it if you are aware it exists. "We only recognize what we're familiar with" - such is life
This another "hint" of why the shot angle is better with TOI is superior to the amateur who aims at the center. The fact (for me) is advanced ball pocketing has a LOT to do with a developed "Feel For The Pocket," and this isn't possible trying to "aim" at the center.
Let's be realistic, can we really "aim" at the center on most cut shots? If you can you are able to do something I don't even attempt. I hit the center, however, it's a result{of using the TOI}, not an incentive.
Think about the last time you were pocketing exceptionally well, were you aware of "aiming" or did you just FEEL the object ball hit center? We've been talking about "Zen in the Martial Arts" and "Inner Tennis" lately and this is also a key to maximizing performance.
When you feel like you are part of the Game it then opens up for you. The highest performance possible is done subconsciously, not consciously. No champion player ever got there by seeing better than everyone else, they got there because they developed their feel for the Game and had the sensation of "feeling shots with their eyes".
Develop a feel for the pocket is my suggestion, the whole pocket, not just the center. Then when I talk about (in my TOI video) how I can alter the course of the cue ball by hitting the 3 Parts (instead of using spin) you will relate to what I'm recommending and how it's achieved. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I'm just curios. Not counting pool, have you ever actually played any physical sport?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
Many here are prone to believe every lame thing that comes along - I see lots of the same people among the "believers" in these threads.
pj
chgo
Patrick would rather use words like "believers" because he is trying to encourage good will and harmony in the forum. :rotflmao1:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
Many here are prone to believe every lame thing that comes along - I see lots of the same people among the "believers" in these threads.
pj
chgo
Patrick would rather use words like "believers" because he is trying to encourage good will and harmony in the forum. :rotflmao1:
The toi give$ you a license to steal the pocket.
Let's keep it professional, insinuating players that are starting to become aware of TOI are "lame, believers (sarcastically) and "nut huggers" is disrespectful at best. At least it shows a negative intention to try to hold good people back, because you are unwilling or unable to try something new, for everyone else I'm going to reveal the next level of TOI.
You see the 3Part pocket system is not just about "increasing margin of error," which you scoff at. It's about something much more valuable to your pool game as one advances. You've heard of the term "cheating the pocket?" THE TOI GIVE$ YOU A LICENSE TO STEAL THE POCKET.
When you use the 3Part pocket system you become an expert at this - why is this important you ask? Because when you, pj, get out of line on every shot, you have to use spin to get back "in good table graces".
Is this starting to make sense yet? You see, my friend, I haven't told you about the advanced reasons to use TOI and the 3 Part Pocket System, I've just stayed at the basics. As you get more aware of hitting 3 parts of the pocket, rather than just {trying} to hit center, it opens up a whole new ability.
No longer do you have to "cheat" the pocket, you now do it instinctively and no longer do you have to use spin, you can do EVERYTHING by using the "TOUCH" of Inside. This "TOUCH" enables you to do something you didn't know existed before (not cheat the pocket), to HONESTLY be about to hit any part of the pocket at will.
Yes, indeed, this is the next level you "can" reach if you commit to using the TOI on every shot for a few hours. You will start to experience an Epiphany about ball pocketing AND position play. Face it, if I can hit any part of the pocket at will and you can't....well, can you say 5, 7 and the break? That's the only way you would be able to compete in a "friendly" Game. 'The Game Will Always Be the Teacher' CJ Wiley
Let's keep it professional, insinuating players that are starting to become aware of TOI are "lame, believers (sarcastically) and "nut huggers" is disrespectful at best. At least it shows a negative intention to try to hold good people back, because you are unwilling or unable to try something new, for everyone else I'm going to reveal the next level of TOI.
You see the 3Part pocket system is not just about "increasing margin of error," which you scoff at. It's about something much more valuable to your pool game as one advances. You've heard of the term "cheating the pocket?" THE TOI GIVE$ YOU A LICENSE TO STEAL THE POCKET.
When you use the 3Part pocket system you become an expert at this - why is this important you ask? Because when you, pj, get out of line on every shot, you have to use spin to get back "in good table graces".
Is this starting to make sense yet? You see, my friend, I haven't told you about the advanced reasons to use TOI and the 3 Part Pocket System, I've just stayed at the basics. As you get more aware of hitting 3 parts of the pocket, rather than just {trying} to hit center, it opens up a whole new ability.
No longer do you have to "cheat" the pocket, you now do it instinctively and no longer do you have to use spin, you can do EVERYTHING by using the "TOUCH" of Inside. This "TOUCH" enables you to do something you didn't know existed before (not cheat the pocket), to HONESTLY be about to hit any part of the pocket at will.
Yes, indeed, this is the next level you "can" reach if you commit to using the TOI on every shot for a few hours. You will start to experience an Epiphany about ball pocketing AND position play. Face it, if I can hit any part of the pocket at will and you can't....well, can you say 5, 7 and the break? That's the only way you would be able to compete in a "friendly" Game. 'The Game Will Always Be the Teacher' CJ Wiley
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I wanted to discuss the topic at hand. But instead you take one point completely out of context & then ask a question for which the answer is obvious but leave out all of the other particulars.
My question to you regarding whether or not you have any other sports experience was sincere in that I or someone else might be able to relate & possibly come up with an analogy to which you might relate. But instead of answering the question, you get flippant. Perhaps it was my fault for not fully explaining my intentions. Sorry.
Those of us that have given TOI an actual fair try on the table know it's benefits. The path you take for your improvement is certainly yours to choose.
I wish you well with & a bit of luck on your pool playing journey.
"Believers" isn't the most politically correct word I could use, but I don't use it to insult; I use it to convey the fact that systems like TOI and CTE that make illogical claims about how they work depend on users who are eager to "believe in" them without too much critical probing.
pj
chgo
Sure you don't. :lmao:
I consider hitting chosen parts of the pocket a basic skill that's effectively gained through normal practice - without the need to place special limitations on how you hit the CB.
pj
chgo
Isn't it illogical for you to make the above claim if you have no actual first hand experience with these systems? Your passing speculation as fact.
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