"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
Seems to me like you can still use TOI and maybe of bit of draw to get the cue ball into the pack for a break out with a firm stroke. CJ says he prefers to use TOI on most shots but will use what is needed on other shots. I am not exactly sure why so many people keep wanting to talk about the exceptions anyway. Also, I am under the impression TOI is used primarily to increase your ball pocketing.
Thanks Duckie, exactly there are situations where you should not use inside at all and one must be knowledgeable on how to shoot with any kind of english, speed...etc.
Pistol shooting?
Hi,
It is easier to aim at a well-defined or easily derived point that at an one that is less poorly defined. A pistol shooter does not aim at the center of the bull's eye. That's a tough spot to find, since it must be derived from the first circle that defines the bull's eye. She/he aligns the pistol sight with the bottom of the bull's eye circle and then adjusts the (usually) back sight elevation such that the bullet strikes the center of the bull's eye. So you aim at a reasonably well defined point, the lowest point along the circle and the bullet strikes the center. The sight picture is a horizontal straight line (top of left side of rear sight - top of blade of front sight - top of right side of rear sight) tangent to the bottom of the first ring of the bull's eye.
Finding the center of the pocket, particularly for shots close to the rail, is challenging. Might be easier to aim for one of the points - a physical location - than to aim for the imaginary center. The "touch of inside" then serves as the equivalent of adjusting the rear pistol sight for the bullet to hit a bit higher than the aim point.
Good shooting to all !
Nick
Hi,
It is easier to aim at a well-defined or easily derived point that at an one that is less poorly defined. A pistol shooter does not aim at the center of the bull's eye. That's a tough spot to find, since it must be derived from the first circle that defines the bull's eye. She/he aligns the pistol sight with the bottom of the bull's eye circle and then adjusts the (usually) back sight elevation such that the bullet strikes the center of the bull's eye. So you aim at a reasonably well defined point, the lowest point along the circle and the bullet strikes the center. The sight picture is a horizontal straight line (top of left side of rear sight - top of blade of front sight - top of right side of rear sight) tangent to the bottom of the first ring of the bull's eye.
Finding the center of the pocket, particularly for shots close to the rail, is challenging. Might be easier to aim for one of the points - a physical location - than to aim for the imaginary center. The "touch of inside" then serves as the equivalent of adjusting the rear pistol sight for the bullet to hit a bit higher than the aim point.
Good shooting to all !
Nick
so is the ocean if you haven't "stuck your toe in it". 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, of course TOI does this better than "outside". What players that have no experience with TOI don't "Real Eyes" is you can hit the object ball fuller (it makes a different sound, a fuller hit) and that's why you don't need the outside.
I will assure you I can do anything with TOI that anyone else can do with outside. (I've identified the exceptions)
Again, unless you put your time in with the "TOUCH" Of Inside you will find this difficult to conceive.....so is the ocean if you haven't "stuck your toe in it". 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, of course TOI does this better than "outside". What players that have no experience with TOI don't "Real Eyes" is you can hit the object ball fuller (it makes a different sound, a fuller hit) and that's why you don't need the outside.
I will assure you I can do anything with TOI that anyone else can do with outside. (I've identified the exceptions)
Again, unless you put your time in with the "TOUCH" Of Inside you will find this difficult to conceive.....so is the ocean if you haven't "stuck your toe in it". 'The Game is the Teacher'
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'The Game (and sometimes road partners) is the Teacher'
That is "right on target," Nick....I've make that analogy, but you said it very, very well. This is how I increase the "perceived margin of error".
When I learned how to aim like this I used "Kentucky Windage," which is basically what you are describing. I was with Omaha John when I was calibrating my angles and he simply said "if you're hitting it too thick, hit it thinner, if you're undercutting shots, figure out how to over cut them (TOI is born)" 'The Game (and sometimes road partners) is the Teacher'
Again, this post is very well aligned to why we need a technique like TOI. Thanks for your contribution, Nick. CJ Wiley
That is "right on target," Nick....I've make that analogy, but you said it very, very well. This is how I increase the "perceived margin of error".
When I learned how to aim like this I used "Kentucky Windage," which is basically what you are describing. I was with Omaha John when I was calibrating my angles and he simply said "if you're hitting it too thick, hit it thinner, if you're undercutting shots, figure out how to over cut them (TOI is born)" 'The Game (and sometimes road partners) is the Teacher'
Again, this post is very well aligned to why we need a technique like TOI. Thanks for your contribution, Nick. CJ Wiley
This is how I increase the "perceived margin of error".
Hi,
Thanks for your kind words about my comment.
One element to increasing your chance of success is that you decrease the error associated with aiming at an imaginary point, the location of which is derived from two physical points (the pocket points). Object ball aim point error thus is decreased by aiming at the physical point.
This allows you to tolerate a greater error in other components of the shot, thereby increasing your "perceived margin of error" on the shot. Your actual physical margin of error on the shot has not changed, but by decreasing one source of error you have increased the tolerable error in the other sources of error.
Nick
Hi,
Thanks for your kind words about my comment.
One element to increasing your chance of success is that you decrease the error associated with aiming at an imaginary point, the location of which is derived from two physical points (the pocket points). Object ball aim point error thus is decreased by aiming at the physical point.
This allows you to tolerate a greater error in other components of the shot, thereby increasing your "perceived margin of error" on the shot. Your actual physical margin of error on the shot has not changed, but by decreasing one source of error you have increased the tolerable error in the other sources of error.
Nick
CJ: I noticed awhile back that when I hit a ball and claim I am hitting center ball I am actually using a bit of inside English. It sort of bothered me at first but then I figured why change what's works.
Now I see your inside English video - I am in good company!
Now I see your inside English video - I am in good company!
it's very difficult to hit center ball every time and there's no reason to even try.
Yes, it's very difficult to hit center ball every time and there's no reason to even try to play that way, it's got some serious drawbacks. There's a better way, and that's to go ahead and favor one side or the other.
I favor the Inside because that's where the contact connection point is (to center or edge) AND it has all the benefits I've been describing when it comes to position and creating zones. There's many other reasons that I covered in the intro, and especially when I start the demonstration part of the video.
Yes, it's very difficult to hit center ball every time and there's no reason to even try to play that way, it's got some serious drawbacks. There's a better way, and that's to go ahead and favor one side or the other.
I favor the Inside because that's where the contact connection point is (to center or edge) AND it has all the benefits I've been describing when it comes to position and creating zones. There's many other reasons that I covered in the intro, and especially when I start the demonstration part of the video.
Aawwww cut it out, Bigshooter!
You are the man! How goes it for you this year? I see you are already in good with TOI. You are right on time, my friend.
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
Yes, it's very difficult to hit center ball every time and there's no reason to even try to play that way, it's got some serious drawbacks. There's a better way, and that's to go ahead and favor one side or the other.
I favor the Inside because that's where the contact connection point is (to center or edge) AND it has all the benefits I've been describing when it comes to position and creating zones. There's many other reasons that I covered in the intro, and especially when I start the demonstration part of the video.
What CJ,
just said! I tried some of this last night at the World's pool hall, Buffalo Billiards. And I saw another player playing for money using TOI. He was hitting the balls real good. Thanks CJ.
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
once you "Real Eyes" this, the Game starts to uncover more......much more indeed
Yes, you will start seeing it more and more now that the "signs" of TOI have been revealed. It's not about "seeing it" while the player is shooting, it's about observing the object ball AFTER contact. The "NO SPIN" and "floating" of the cue ball from place to place for position is the tell tail sign.
The more a player does this the higher I will immediately rate his Game. When they do it every possible shot I know their speed and it's going to be VERY HIGH. I've been seeing this go on for years. Players that play another way with spin can play great, however, over time they start to falter.
"Mastering one shot" is the key to playing any sport or game at the highest level. That "mastered shot" becomes the foundation they use for all other shots (themes and variations). This is the "Inside story" and once you "Real Eyes" this, the Game starts to uncover more......much more indeed.
'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, you will start seeing it more and more now that the "signs" of TOI have been revealed. It's not about "seeing it" while the player is shooting, it's about observing the object ball AFTER contact. The "NO SPIN" and "floating" of the cue ball from place to place for position is the tell tail sign.
The more a player does this the higher I will immediately rate his Game. When they do it every possible shot I know their speed and it's going to be VERY HIGH. I've been seeing this go on for years. Players that play another way with spin can play great, however, over time they start to falter.
"Mastering one shot" is the key to playing any sport or game at the highest level. That "mastered shot" becomes the foundation they use for all other shots (themes and variations). This is the "Inside story" and once you "Real Eyes" this, the Game starts to uncover more......much more indeed.
'The Game is the Teacher'
Why would anyone want to discourage people from center ball? If they cant grasp that, at least somewhat....how can anyone even begin to understand more advanced concepts? (You cant just jump into algebra without learning multiplication first.)
I also wish to clarify for some beginners who may not realize: Favoring one side of a cue ball or the other, does not mean favoring the left or right side of the same ball. (Inside and outside spin is not a left/right relationship.)
I also wish to clarify for some beginners who may not realize: Favoring one side of a cue ball or the other, does not mean favoring the left or right side of the same ball. (Inside and outside spin is not a left/right relationship.)
Beginners have enough to worry about with their pre shot routine
Yes, I agree and am clear about this (center ball for beginners) in my DVD. I take it for granted that players real eyes this technique is not a "beginner technique," this is for people that can already hit the cue ball straight "most" of the time.
Beginners have enough to worry about with their pre shot routine and creating consistent body angles relative to their "shot line". I doubt if many beginners are on this Forum, and I've ask that question and the reply was "keep it advanced, we like it," so I have and will continue to.
Beginners, if you're out there reading this, please contribute to this thread or Private Message me and I'll give you suggestions on how to improve as rapidly as possible. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, I agree and am clear about this (center ball for beginners) in my DVD. I take it for granted that players real eyes this technique is not a "beginner technique," this is for people that can already hit the cue ball straight "most" of the time.
Beginners have enough to worry about with their pre shot routine and creating consistent body angles relative to their "shot line". I doubt if many beginners are on this Forum, and I've ask that question and the reply was "keep it advanced, we like it," so I have and will continue to.
Beginners, if you're out there reading this, please contribute to this thread or Private Message me and I'll give you suggestions on how to improve as rapidly as possible. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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I wish he called it TOE (Touch of English) then there will be no issues, and one has to learn all TOE and NIE (No Induced English), at very advanced level- pro level, one has to be able to shoot every way possible to grant potting and position in turn constancy. Ultimately a TOO (Touch of outside) will be as critical for certain shots too, such as a spot shot and want to keep CB at bottom rail, or want CB hit long rail and spin to above side pocket, or when combo frozen balls that are slightly off and want to throw it in pocket, many examples that only when you are playing a match comes up.
Thanks, we sent out your DVD today. I ran out of 'Billiards Inside Secrets' so the download is the only thing available until Jan 14. I do have a few of the Ultimate Pool Secrets still on DVD (three videos on one)
I have the $14.95 special available at www.cjwiley.com and it has more on many subjects including the TOI and the 3PartPocketSystem.
I still haven't received it. :frown:
PM me your info. and we'll check the tracking info - you'll get it asap
I'm not sure which order you're referring to? We're completely caught up on the 'Ultimate Pool Secrets" DVD's and the 'Billiards Inside Secrets' are coming in on Monday for immediate shipping.
Forward me your full name and day you ordered and I'll look at the tracking information. We are now tracking all the deliveries, I lost two over Christmas to Europe and one to Australia.
PM me your info. and we'll check the tracking info - you'll get it asap, and if we made a mistake I'll send a complimentary gift for you.
I apologize for any inconvenience and appreciate your patience, Tommy.
I'm not sure which order you're referring to? We're completely caught up on the 'Ultimate Pool Secrets" DVD's and the 'Billiards Inside Secrets' are coming in on Monday for immediate shipping.
Forward me your full name and day you ordered and I'll look at the tracking information. We are now tracking all the deliveries, I lost two over Christmas to Europe and one to Australia.
PM me your info. and we'll check the tracking info - you'll get it asap, and if we made a mistake I'll send a complimentary gift for you.
I apologize for any inconvenience and appreciate your patience, Tommy.
Take the TOI challenge.
You can do anything (too accomplish a run out) with the TOI that you can do with outside english (you know the obvious exceptions I've listed on several occasions)....give me an example {of a specific shot diagram} and I'll post the shot (on YouTube) and demonstrate it. I really like to TAKE THE TOI CHALLENGE :thumbup:
Until you experience shooting with the TOI for three hours straight you won't believe what can be achieved. I've show many accomplished players how much you can "cheat the pocket," using the TOI and they are astonished.
Give me any shot you can think of that MUST be shot with outside english and I'll demonstrate the TOI choice I would recommend. Fair enough?
This is good practice, live demonstrations on streaming video are coming soon. Modern technology is making across the world, like across the street.
You can do anything (too accomplish a run out) with the TOI that you can do with outside english (you know the obvious exceptions I've listed on several occasions)....give me an example {of a specific shot diagram} and I'll post the shot (on YouTube) and demonstrate it. I really like to TAKE THE TOI CHALLENGE :thumbup:
Until you experience shooting with the TOI for three hours straight you won't believe what can be achieved. I've show many accomplished players how much you can "cheat the pocket," using the TOI and they are astonished.
Give me any shot you can think of that MUST be shot with outside english and I'll demonstrate the TOI choice I would recommend. Fair enough?
This is good practice, live demonstrations on streaming video are coming soon. Modern technology is making across the world, like across the street.
Bambu,
I started playing when I was 13. I started using english with in weeks. I seriously doubt that I have ever hit the actual center of the ball, high & low center, yes, exact center no.
That being said, I am & have always hit almost all shots off of the vertical axis. I learned very quickly @ 13 that I got unintended side spin when I tried to hit dead center high or even low. So... I started hittng with a little outside english & not long after that I started using inside english to change the CB path. It's just not as hard as so many want to make it out to be.
In a very short time I have gone from spinning almost all shots where my focus was on swerve & spin for 46 yrs. to now it is on squirt/deflection & no spin, but I am not trying to do what is nearly impossible, which is to hit exactly on the vertical axis with any high percentage of consistency.
I'm just pointing out my experience & perspective. As always it comes down to each his or her own way of doing what one wants to do.
Regards to You &
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