"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?

[John Brumback]

Yes, I enjoy golf too and used to play a lot with Johnny A., Earl S., and Kim D. We played just about every tournament at various courses for years. We said Archer could "get it up and down out of a trash can" :thumbup:

There are a high percentage of pros that hit a fade too. The fade is easier to control and lands softer - they don't need the added distance generally.

I worked a lot with Hank Haney before he started working with TW. He mentions some of our conversations in his new book about training TW as a matter of fact. Hank discovered some powerful golf techniques studying Hogan and Byron Nelson. They both grew up a few miles from here.

"perfectly straight drives, every shot" ... sounds like "Iron Byron".

Hank really likes pool and we played a lot, I traded him pool lessons for golf lessons. We discovered many similarities between the two games. One of these days I'll go into detail about this experience.

CJ, you may not remember but you and I played 9ball for 15 hrs at the old All Star Billiards in Lex,ky.I got to see how strong your method really is,LOL
It's strong!! Lucky for me it took you awhile to adjust to them old ragged gold Crowns

"You can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen"."The hardest shot in golf is a straight one".I think the pool and golf stroke have alot in common.Nice to see you and hear about all your pool knowledge.Good stuff!! John B.

 

[CJ Wiley]

This wasn't the video. Just an introduction - the full length video is over an hour

Not knocking it, but I didnt get much out of that video. This still sounds like using contact throw to pocket the ball. Even if that works well for pocketing, you will need other types of cue ball hits to keep yourself in line. If not, you would have to sacrifice position. No pro I've seen plays that way.

I also think that if I accidentally hit center instead of TOI, I'm gonna get a different reaction, a different object ball path and contact point. Therefore, its not as if using TOI could increase ones margin of error. Nobody can play consistent pro pool without hitting their intended cue ball mark.

I also think that if I accidentally hit center instead of TOI, I'm gonna get a different reaction, a different object ball path and contact point. Therefore, its not as if using TOI could increase ones margin of error. Nobody can play consistent pro pool without hitting their intended cue ball mark.[/QUOTE]

This wasn't the video. Just an introduction - the full length video is over an hour long and packed full of examples, explanations and demonstrations on the Touch Of Inside.

The TOI Video will be released within the next 24 hours. We've put in a lot of hours and it's 99% done. That last 1% is just technical post production audio checks regarding some sound clips that weren't quite right.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mr. AtLarge,

Thanks for a well intended opportunity to 'discuss' the issues.

On his recent DVD, CJ put a number to his TOI -- 1/8th of a tip (and by "tip" I imagine he meant the full cue tip width rather than just the (smaller) tip contact patch). Since most tips are about 1/2" in width, 1/8th of that is just 1/16". Do you believe that most good players' strokes are always accurate within 1/16"?

I think CJ put a number on it because he was some what pressed to do so by the vagueness of the term 'touch'. As CJ just said in his introduction to his TOI Video, his goal is to get 'us' to develope a 'feel'. I do not & never have taken a slide rule or calculator to the pool table with me when I'm playing pool. All I can tell you is about my experience, which is, I have never, to my knowledge, hit the opposite side of the CB that I intended to hit. I have very much confidence in what human beings are physically capable of doing with their amazing make up of body & mind if they can just keep their brains out of the way. Over analysis almost always results in either total or partial 'paralysis'. Perhaps too much knowledge of specifics just puts fear of failure into the picture.

I've been wondering when BHE would be brought into the discussion. For a good many shots, if one bridges at the shaft's natural pivot point and then strokes crooked -- unintended back-hand english -- the CB still tracks on the intended line of the shot. So if the initial aim was sound, the ball still goes in. Your comment about speed of shot does have some validity in this, however. So does CB/OB separation.

So...in this case, if one mis hits & still pockets the ball, it would be luck, unless they set up & shot as for BHE while still trying to hit center & as you say speed & seperation are key factors. I doubt if many are going through the trouble to take out an isurance policy for all of their intended center hit shots. If so then the speed of shot is limited. Also as you say the initial aim still needs to be sound. What if the aim is off center to one side of the pocket & then the mis hit causes the CB to contact the OB on the other side? Very much more than likely a mis would be the result. Obviously in any plan of operation the initial aim is a crutial factor. But with TOI one side mis is all but eliminated. I can & have aimed to mis the pocket & then deflected the CB to cut the ball into the pocket. This is part of what CJ is referring to when talking about position options without spin.

But, now, compare the difficulty of sending the CB on its intended path in the manner just described (bridging at the pivot point and planning to hit center CB) versus using a TOI at varying CB/OB separations. For example, let's assume the two balls are 2 feet apart and we are cutting the OB to the right. Further assume that we need to squirt the CB some small amount over that 2-foot distance, let's say 3/32", to pocket the OB center pocket using TOI. Assume we do that perfectly.

Now move the CB back 2 more feet, but on the same line to the full-hit-ghost-ball position as for our shorter shot. Now we need to squirt the CB 3/32" over the 4-foot distance. Will the same CB hit (contact point, cue stick angle, shot speed) do that? Won't the CB deflect a lot more over 4 feet than it did over 2 feet? Do we have to worry about swerve yet? Do we now need to squerve it 3/32"?

Now move the CB back 2 more feet on that same line. Now we need to move the CB 3/32" to the left over a 6-foot distance. Surely swerve is coming into play by now. Will the same hit on the CB work?

Please re-read my 1st paragraph. But let me ask you a question. Do you test the friction of every table cloth that you play on & then calculate the rpm spin to speed ratio required to draw a CB back 4 ft. on a full hit from an OB that is 6 ft. away and then re-calculate them again for a different set up? Do you actaully do that? Or do you rely on your perception based on past cause & affect & just shoot the shot?

To use the TOI/3-part pocket system do we have to become cueing savants to get the net effect of squirt and swerve to put the CB in the right position at all the possible different distances between CB and OB? Can simply angling the cue a fixed, small amount (rather than holding it as level as possible) accomplish that?

Does TOI really simplify life? I see it as potentially highly beneficial for its effects on the CB after collision, if one prefers to play position in that manner, but I'm not yet sold on its other claimed benefits. I look forward to hearing more in CJ's TOI video.

There's that word again, 'savants'. As I've said, IMHO the human being is an amazing biomechanical machine but with a conscious & subconscious mind. Humans can conceptualize, have a percerption, & develope 'feel'.

If you want to match up a calculating brain type player & a 'feel' type player, I'm betting on the 'feel' player. Why does anyone practice if all that needs to be done is do the calculation in one's brain, or with a calculator, & then execute the shot. One develpoes 'feel' by experiencing repeated cause & effect. I 'know' how much a certain off set affects the cue ball, but I do not say to myself well I need 1.5 tips which in x" so hit it there. I do it by feel based on my experiences with cause & effect. Now that being said, the numbers knowledge can give one a fairly large head start on developing that feel through a good approximation as to what is needed.[/QUOTE]

Mr AtLarge,

Thanks again, for the opportunity to make my opinions known again. I cetainly do not have all of the answers, but I know what works, at least for me & some others. I hope no one in my pool room ever finds out about TOI & if they do, I hope they never take it to the table to give it a try, & if they do that, I hope they give up on it after the first ball that they mis & say to themselves, TOI is just too complcated, the same way so many say, 'I just can't play with english, it's too complcated'.

Regards & Best Wishes to You &

 

[CJ Wiley]

"who is your dad???"

CJ, you may not remember but you and I played 9ball for 15 hrs at the old All Star Billiards in Lex,ky.I got to see how strong your method really is,LOL
It's strong!! Lucky for me it took you awhile to adjust to them old ragged gold Crowns

"You can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen"."The hardest shot in golf is a straight one".I think the pool and golf stroke have alot in common.Nice to see you and hear about all your pool knowledge.Good stuff!! John B.

That's right, John, we were some "young guns" back then. I remember how tough you were there, but I don't remember much about the match, I think we ended up close to even.....maybe I even lost a few games. I know you are well aware of how to hold/stiff/throw those banks in, it's certainly an "art form".

Yes, you're right about those golf analogies and if I know Jack Nicklaus said that about hitting the "straight one" and Lee Trevino was credited with the "hook won't listen" (he hit a big fade). I went to high school with one of Lee's sons and met his other son here in Dallas while he was working at the StoneBridge C.C.

I didn't know who he was and we were out playing one day and one of the guys with us said "how much has your dad won playing golf this year, 6, or 7?" .... I said, "thousand?"....and he said "no, hundred thousand!"....I was like "who is your dad???" and he turned and nailed me with "LEE TREVINO!" .....I felt a bit foolish the rest of the day, but what a cool guy, Lee was one of my all time favorites.

Great to here from you, John, good luck and play well at the DCC.

 

[LAMas]

In support of TOI

Years ago, I had a tip put on my shaft by 'Lil' Al Romero who also makes cues at the Hardtimes in Bellflower L. A., and when I inspected his work, I noticed that the very tip (1/8+") was flat. I asked Al about it and he said that if you are aiming center of the CB and are a bit (touch) off to the side, the shot line will still be true.

Al was a hustler in his early days and knows the value of having an edge.:smile:

 

[ENGLISH!]

Years ago, I had a tip put on my shaft by 'Lil' Al Romero who also makes cues at the Hardtimes in Bellflower L. A., and when I inspected his work, I noticed that the very tip (1/8+") was flat. I asked Al about it and he said that if you are aiming center of the CB and are a bit (touch) off to the side, the shot line will still be true.

Al was a hustler in his early days and knows the value of having an edge.:smile:

Mr. Mas,

I have always used a 'flat' soft tip with the edges just slightly rounded, but I'm always hitting the CB with the 'edges' anyway.

Best Regards to You &

 

[John Brumback]

That's right, John, we were some "young guns" back then. I remember how tough you were there, but I don't remember much about the match, I think we ended up close to even.....maybe I even lost a few games. I know you are well aware of how to hold/stiff/throw those banks in, it's certainly an "art form".

Yes, you're right about those golf analogies and if I know Jack Nicklaus said that about hitting the "straight one" and Lee Trevino was credited with the "hook won't listen" (he hit a big fade). I went to high school with one of Lee's sons and met his other son here in Dallas while he was working at the StoneBridge C.C.

I didn't know who he was and we were out playing one day and one of the guys with us said "how much has your dad won playing golf this year, 6, or 7?" .... I said, "thousand?"....and he said "no, hundred thousand!"....I was like "who is your dad???" and he turned and nailed me with "LEE TREVINO!" .....I felt a bit foolish the rest of the day, but what a cool guy, Lee was one of my all time favorites.

Great to here from you, John, good luck and play well at the DCC.

Well that's awesome.You sure have been around!! Glad to see ya doing so good!! yep we broke about even.I got the bug about you coming to town and new all about ya and what you looked like before you ever got there, And just think..this was before cell phones and internet.I made you give me the last two and I had you stuck all night then we went back to even and you won it back,lol Good times,that was.Most players couldn't hang with me on that ole crooked table but man did you figure it out!!.We were at war for 15 hrs Nice talking with you again. JB

 

[Fatboy]

Yes, I enjoy golf too and used to play a lot with Johnny A., Earl S., and Kim D. We played just about every tournament at various courses for years. We said Archer could "get it up and down out of a trash can" :thumbup:

There are a high percentage of pros that hit a fade too. The fade is easier to control and lands softer - they don't need the added distance generally.

I worked a lot with Hank Haney before he started working with TW. He mentions some of our conversations in his new book about training TW as a matter of fact. Hank discovered some powerful golf techniques studying Hogan and Byron Nelson. They both grew up a few miles from here.

"perfectly straight drives, every shot" ... sounds like "Iron Byron".

Hank really likes pool and we played a lot, I traded him pool lessons for golf lessons. We discovered many similarities between the two games. One of these days I'll go into detail about this experience.

Shannon told me some stories about him and Tony Ellin & everyone else you named from the golf course. They were great, Shannon is a great story teller and anyone who wasn't there missed out on some "Dandy's" as Shannon said. JA told me some too driving to JOB's a few yeas ago 08 I think, some of the stories over lapped Shannon's stories-I mention that because both times I heard them, they were the same. No BS-both guys had the same recollations. Tony E was one hell of a guy, RIP.

The golf stories are good or better than the pool stories, Those were good times. In Hawaii 2 weeks ago I heard more golf tails, they played all the courses there-big action back in the late 90's. Aki(SP?) who was a partner in Hawaiian Brian's up until a few years ago had some great golf stories. The guys would go there a couple times a year and bet it up at the golf course. Sadly all that action is gone.

ok back to TOI and pool.....:smile:

 

[AtLarge]

Again, don't spin the cue ball....it's a NO SPIN shot (as far as what you try to do)....and of course it still have a bit of spin, just don't try to spin it.

Don't read anything into what was said, it's very simple. I just wanted you to experience what the deflection did from that distance. It creates an angle, I was just curious what angle it created for you. I know the answer, you would have to actually shoot it to tell. All angles connect to the inside of the cue ball.

The answer is - It would over cut by a half diamond (app.). Now go over a half tip to the inside and hit a "half ball shot" (just move the cue ball over a diamond from the foot spot, with the object ball still on the spot) aiming it like it's straight in.....what happens?

I thought you meant that you were making that spot-to-spot shot by aiming at the OB edge using a half tip of inside english (yes, english; I cannot hit a half tip from center without spinning the ball). I couldn't make that shot that way; but, of course, it created a big angle. Now, when I move the CB over a diamond and use just a TOI, I make it sometimes, but not nearly as well as moving the CB over a bit more toward the side rail and aiming at the OB edge while trying to hit center CB. [But we discussed this spot shot quite a bit months ago.]

 

[AtLarge]

... I have never, to my knowledge, hit the opposite side of the CB that I intended to hit. ...

If we had any way to evaluate that statement, I'd bet all the tea in my china cabinet that you have "crossed over" at times. As you have mentioned, however, you used to be a "lots of english" guy on many shots, so crossing over is unlikely on those shots. But if one is trying to aim just 1/16" from center, I'd think crossing over occasionally is pretty likely.

I'll just let my other comments in the quoted post stand. I'm certainly not advocating anything like calculations instead of feel, whatever that was all about.

I am surprised, however, that you have become such a cheerleader for TOI when you say that you use it only a small portion of the time and that your position play with it is rather poor (compared with your old way). You're assuming that any difficulties will be eliminated as you gain experience with it. How are you doing on long shots using a TOI and the 3-part-pocket system? Time will tell. Don't let your exuberance outrun your knowledge and experience.

Anyway, I always enjoy learning and trying new techniques in pool, and I'm still open to benefiting from CJ's ways. His presence here for the last several months has certainly made things more interesting.

There was nothing on that 13+ minute intro to the TOI video that we haven't heard before; I hope the demonstration parts add to what he has already said. I'm eager to view it (but on DVD, not ppv)!

 

[ENGLISH!]

If we had any way to evaluate that statement, I'd bet all the tea in my china cabinet that you have "crossed over" at times. As you have mentioned, however, you used to be a "lots of english" guy on many shots, so crossing over is unlikely on those shots. But if one is trying to aim just 1/16" from center, I'd think crossing over occasionally is pretty likely.

I'll just let my other comments in the quoted post stand. I'm certainly not advocating anything like calculations instead of feel, whatever that was all about.

I am surprised, however, that you have become such a cheerleader for TOI when you say that you use it only a small portion of the time and that your position play with it is rather poor (compared with your old way). You're assuming that any difficulties will be eliminated as you gain experience with it. How are you doing on long shots using a TOI and the 3-part-pocket system? Time will tell. Don't let your exuberance outrun your knowledge and experience.

Anyway, I always enjoy learning and trying new techniques in pool, and I'm still open to benefiting from CJ's ways. His presence here for the last several months has certainly made things more interesting.

There was nothing on that 13+ minute intro to the TOI video that we haven't heard before; I hope the demonstration parts add to what he has already said. I'm eager to view it (but on DVD, not ppv)!

Mr. Atlarge,

I have & am use to shooting with minute amounts of english too & I've never noticed any cross over. I saw were you said to CJ that you can not hit the CB from spot to spot without getting inside english. Naturally since the hit is off center there will be an amount of spin but if you are noticing it, I would guess that you are not hitting the shot firm enough or you are hitting too far off center. That is one of the things that I am getting used to with the TOI. If you play long enough with it, it sort of encourges you to firm up your grip & encourages you to use a more compact firmer stroke, which is the opposite of my norm.

I have not been able to give TOI an ongoing 3 weeks because I am competing in an individual money league but I have given it several 3 hr. or more sessions & pocketing balls is excellent even those long thin cut shots. I realize it's potential but I have not been able to fine tune the positioning factor as of yet but it is getting better. The problem is mosty speed related as the ball either floats too far or not enough.. However you are correct in that I am not yet abandoning my past experience. As you say time will tell. But for now it is a very valuable tool that I am using at least 20% or more.

I totally agree with you in regards to CJ's presence here. He has made it quite interesting & beneficial. To be quite honest without him revealing his techniques & insights as to how a Champion plays, I would probably be rather board with AZB from a learning aspect.

I also agree about the intro. Nothing new. We'll just have to wait & see.

Try firming up your grip & stroke & just hit it far enough off center to get it to squirt & not spin back. I think you'll see a difference.

Regards to You &

 

[AtLarge]

... saw were you said to CJ that you can not hit the CB from spot to spot without getting inside english. ...

He said to hit the shot (spot to spot) with 1/2 tip of inside, but try not to spin it:

"Again, don't spin the cue ball....it's a NO SPIN shot (as far as what you try to do)....and of course it still have a bit of spin, just don't try to spin it.."​

I simply commented that I can't hit a half tip from center without putting spin on the ball.

Undoubtedly one of those perceptual things.

 

[ENGLISH!]

He said to hit the shot (spot to spot) with 1/2 tip of inside, but try not to spin it:

"Again, don't spin the cue ball....it's a NO SPIN shot (as far as what you try to do)....and of course it still have a bit of spin, just don't try to spin it.."​

I simply commented that I can't hit a half tip from center without putting spin on the ball.

Undoubtedly one of those perceptual things.

Mr. AtLarge,

Yeah,

That was what I was talking about when you seemed to be making it seem so complex with all of the different numbers, etc. It comes down to what is needed for you. That is why talking about it won't work. One has to go to the table & play with it to find their individual fit with it.

Everyone's cue, including the hold they have on it is different, including elevation.

I am trying to keep my cue as level as possible because I am a low head shooter, but I have found that some shots work a bit better with a bit of a more elevated cue. But... I don't aim as precisely with a higher head so it is a bit of trade off for me at times.

What I am doing & I'm using LD shafts is hitting with the outer edge of my tip basically at the center line. It's like hitting center but with the edge of the tip instead of the center of the tip. It working for me. That being said, I have almost flat soft tips with the edges rounded.

I hope this maybe helps you in some way.

Regards to You &

 

[CJ Wiley]

Shannon told me some stories about him and Tony Ellin & everyone else you named from the golf course. They were great, Shannon is a great story teller and anyone who wasn't there missed out on some "Dandy's" as Shannon said. JA told me some too driving to JOB's a few yeas ago 08 I think, some of the stories over lapped Shannon's stories-I mention that because both times I heard them, they were the same. No BS-both guys had the same recollations. Tony E was one hell of a guy, RIP.

The golf stories are good or better than the pool stories, Those were good times. In Hawaii 2 weeks ago I heard more golf tails, they played all the courses there-big action back in the late 90's. Aki(SP?) who was a partner in Hawaiian Brian's up until a few years ago had some great golf stories. The guys would go there a couple times a year and bet it up at the golf course. Sadly all that action is gone.

ok back to TOI and pool.....:smile:

Ask Johnny about when I gambled with him and Tony Ellen playing tennis. I've heard his version second hand and it was funny. Tony told him they had "the nuts," but sometimes the nuts aren't good enough. We had a lot of fun playing the pro tour back then, there was plenty of things to keep us entertained.

Last time I played golf with those guys in Hawaii the wind kicked up on the back 9 and I lost 3k. I had never played in a 40mph wind before and hope I never do again. They did bet it up back then and gambled at pool at Hawaiian Brians too. I know Johnny won a small fortune there playing several different guys both golf and pool. Too bad that's not happening anymore, guess I'll have to create another reason to visit Hawaii.

 

[West Point 1987]

You have to find the "sweet spot"

All the talk about 1/2 tip, 1/8 tip, etc. is misleading unless and until you actually do the 3 hour uninterrupted drill of shooting with nothing but the touch of inside and the slightly thick aim at the near part of the three part pocket. How much to offset to the touch of inside and how thick to aim really has to be seen by each individual player himself, with his stroke and his equipment. All the descriptions will confuse you until you get down and try it yourself. How much offset to kill the slight inside spin on contact is also affected by the slightly thicker aim and the amount of acceleration/speed of the stroke. It all plays off each other, but need not require a bunch of mental calculations. The beauty of this technique is it reduces all that to the lowest common denominator.

All the physics being pointed out by the skeptics are true...but as often as not they're over estimated on their effect. You have to develop the feel for yourself to a point where you really aren't consciously calculating it. Those of you that have played Virtual Pool (whatever version) have seen the tracking option that allows you to move the cue around and see the effect on the shot's line. It's not so much a calculation as "turning a dial" on your aim/address of the CB, with it all anchored in a way that any slight error on your hit affects the OB in a way that it moves from just inside the pocket to the middle or just past.

It also helps to learn this by doing it in competition, too. I struggled a little at first, but I stuck with it and it finally clicked for me, especially seeing it work under pressure. I find I have to spin a shot maybe once a rack because of the desired line I need; but the rest is straight up TOI, using draw, follow and/or speed to control the CB, which I find MUCH more predictable and reliable than using spin to do it. It also looks pretty, too.

Don't let all the debate confuse you...if you're truly curious, just give it an honest try. You'll be at least intrigued, more likely convinced there's more to it than you thought. A road player tried to show me this technique in 1989 and I ignored him. Now I'm listening.

 

[naji]

I just have to "agree to disagree" with those that recommend hitting "center ball". This is much more difficult than most players realize and even with a great stroke you're bound to hit it slightly off 1-5% of the time. This makes the cue ball deflect and leaves you confused on exactly why you miss certain shots.

I deflect every shot slightly,(unless dead staight in) so that I can play the shot to the nearest part of the pocket. This gives me a chance to play the pocket as a "Zone," and thus gives me more margin of error than a "center ball" hitter. All champion players throw balls in by cuing it off center whether their aware of it or not.

Even the greatest bank players throw/hold/stiff (whatever term you choose) their banks so they curve slighly into the hole. This also gives them a pocket "zone" and more margin for error, thus increasing their percentages (and confidence).

I was taught how to bank by Tony Fargo and paid him $700. for his "bank system". Needless to say it paid off many times over (I won over 7k the first week) because he showed me how he aligned and "threw" his banks in an effectively created a bigger "Pocket Zone".

This isn't just true in pool, but in golf, bowling, baseball, tennis, etc. Being able to "move" the ball though spin or deflection is the key that increases a players awareness of the "deeper" level of pocket billiards. 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ, i respect what you saying, but i disagree on just leaning one way of pocketing balls, one has to learn every possible shot of the 4000 shots possibilities to be perfect in pool. Each shot of those 4000 possibilities have to be practiced equally, i can say 1/2 of these shots are at lower half of table so somewhat easy to medium hard, the other half at top part of table medium hard, to very hard. When you are in a match and CB in a position when a top high left is critical, then that is the shot, otherwise he /she going to either hit they way they know and position suffer.

 

[AtLarge]

All the talk about 1/2 tip, 1/8 tip, etc. is misleading unless and until you actually do the 3 hour uninterrupted drill of shooting with nothing but the touch of inside and the slightly thick aim at the near part of the three part pocket. How much to offset to the touch of inside and how thick to aim really has to be seen by each individual player himself, with his stroke and his equipment. All the descriptions will confuse you until you get down and try it yourself. How much offset to kill the slight inside spin on contact is also affected by the slightly thicker aim and the amount of acceleration/speed of the stroke. It all plays off each other, but need not require a bunch of mental calculations. The beauty of this technique is it reduces all that to the lowest common denominator.

All the physics being pointed out by the skeptics are true...but as often as not they're over estimated on their effect. You have to develop the feel for yourself to a point where you really aren't consciously calculating it. Those of you that have played Virtual Pool (whatever version) have seen the tracking option that allows you to move the cue around and see the effect on the shot's line. It's not so much a calculation as "turning a dial" on your aim/address of the CB, with it all anchored in a way that any slight error on your hit affects the OB in a way that it moves from just inside the pocket to the middle or just past.

It also helps to learn this by doing it in competition, too. I struggled a little at first, but I stuck with it and it finally clicked for me, especially seeing it work under pressure. I find I have to spin a shot maybe once a rack because of the desired line I need; but the rest is straight up TOI, using draw, follow and/or speed to control the CB, which I find MUCH more predictable and reliable than using spin to do it. It also looks pretty, too.

Don't let all the debate confuse you...if you're truly curious, just give it an honest try. You'll be at least intrigued, more likely convinced there's more to it than you thought. A road player tried to show me this technique in 1989 and I ignored him. Now I'm listening.

Nice post. I have been intrigued, and I'm trying to give it an honest try and an honest assessment regarding its applicability.

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's no situation that I can't handle as well or better using TOI

CJ, i respect what you saying, but i disagree on just leaning one way of pocketing balls, one has to learn every possible shot of the 4000 shots possibilities to be perfect in pool. Each shot of those 4000 possibilities have to be practiced equally, i can say 1/2 of these shots are at lower half of table so somewhat easy to medium hard, the other half at top part of table medium hard, to very hard. When you are in a match and CB in a position when a top high left is critical, then that is the shot, otherwise he /she going to either hit they way they know and position suffer.

I have made a point to list the exceptions of TOI {on numerous occasions} - when you need to change the angle off a rail or curve the cue ball, I would add if the balls are very close together you need to be an advanced player to use TOI, because acceleration is unusually critical.

If the shot you describe (top, high, left) is critical I will bet the "left" part of it is to change the angle after it's going to a rail (there can be no other reason, unless you're doing an after contact masse' which would mean you're Efren )

Someone can play pool with the "Touch of Inside" better than spinning their ball with outside. There's no situation that I can't handle as well or better using TOI as anyone else in the world. This isn't some outlandish claim, this is a fact and can easily back it up.

"Cheating the pocket" becomes an easy thing to do and something you do a few times a game. Right now you rely on spin to "cheat" the pocket, but when you learn the TOI Technique you won't ever want to use spin again. What I'm saying is tried and true and I"m teaching players to do it every day now.

I gave a guy a lesson 2 nights ago and he said "I've made more balls in the last three days than I have since I started playing (he's been playing for about 2 years). Is he exaggerating? It doesn't matter, if you were there to see the look on his face you'd know HE BELIEVES IT. The Touch Of Inside made the Game much more fun for me though the years and when I came back (from not playing 8 years) I experimented with playing other ways and it wasn't any fun at all.

Now, ALL I DO is play with the TOI and the Game has opened up again. I would play gambling matches and Major tournament all the time if I could. However, there's not much gambling or "major tournaments" to play these days. Am I going to play in the DCC? A part of me wants to, but with the races to 3,4 and 7/9, the buy backs and the rules I'm not sure (and there's also no more rooms). [If anyone has an extra room p.m. me I may get it]

Making the Game "lucky" (short races/ incomplete one foul rules) and "gimmicky equipment" hasn't done positive things for anyone but a select few (non players). I have no problem with anyone making money, however, I still think the PRO TOUR should be very skillful and the rules should encourage stellar play, tough conditions (10'tables?) and the "cream rising to the top". 'The Game is the Teacher' p.s. I still think Shane and Archer would be in the finals the same amount of times.

 

[Fatboy]

Ask Johnny about when I gambled with him and Tony Ellen playing tennis. I've heard his version second hand and it was funny. Tony told him they had "the nuts," but sometimes the nuts aren't good enough. We had a lot of fun playing the pro tour back then, there was plenty of things to keep us entertained.

Last time I played golf with those guys in Hawaii the wind kicked up on the back 9 and I lost 3k. I had never played in a 40mph wind before and hope I never do again. They did bet it up back then and gambled at pool at Hawaiian Brians too. I know Johnny won a small fortune there playing several different guys both golf and pool. Too bad that's not happening anymore, guess I'll have to create another reason to visit Hawaii.

I did hear JA talking to Aki about the day it was blowing 40mph, it was fun to listen to them talk. Aki has a bowling center we visited him at, triple nice guy, super super smart, biz smart. HB's sadly aint what it was we didnt go, we were with the girls and kids, it was fun. Short trip(destroyed my back on the plane ride_ well worth it.

I'm ready lets go to Hawaii!!!

ok sorry back to pool,

best
Fatboy:smile:

 

[naji]

I have made a point to list the exceptions of TOI {on numerous occasions} - when you need to change the angle off a rail or curve the cue ball, I would add if the balls are very close together you need to be an advanced player to use TOI, because acceleration is unusually critical.

If the shot you describe (top, high, left) is critical I will bet the "left" part of it is to change the angle after it's going to a rail (there can be no other reason, unless you're doing an after contact masse' which would mean you're Efren )

Someone can play pool with the "Touch of Inside" better than spinning their ball with outside. There's no situation that I can't handle as well or better using TOI as anyone else in the world. This isn't some outlandish claim, this is a fact and can easily back it up.

"Cheating the pocket" becomes an easy thing to do and something you do a few times a game. Right now you rely on spin to "cheat" the pocket, but when you learn the TOI Technique you won't ever want to use spin again. What I'm saying is tried and true and I"m teaching players to do it every day now.

I gave a guy a lesson 2 nights ago and he said "I've made more balls in the last three days than I have since I started playing (he's been playing for about 2 years). Is he exaggerating? It doesn't matter, if you were there to see the look on his face you'd know HE BELIEVES IT. The Touch Of Inside made the Game much more fun for me though the years and when I came back (from not playing 8 years) I experimented with playing other ways and it wasn't any fun at all.

Now, ALL I DO is play with the TOI and the Game has opened up again. I would play gambling matches and Major tournament all the time if I could. However, there's not much gambling or "major tournaments" to play these days. Am I going to play in the DCC? A part of me wants to, but with the races to 3,4 and 7/9, the buy backs and the rules I'm not sure (and there's also no more rooms). [If anyone has an extra room p.m. me I may get it]

Making the Game "lucky" (short races/ incomplete one foul rules) and "gimmicky equipment" hasn't done positive things for anyone but a select few (non players). I have no problem with anyone making money, however, I still think the PRO TOUR should be very skillful and the rules should encourage stellar play, tough conditions (10'tables?) and the "cream rising to the top". 'The Game is the Teacher' p.s. I still think Shane and Archer would be in the finals the same amount of times.

Thanks CJ for replying. I am not disputing your skill level by any means, it is just that i favor no restrictions on how to shoot a shot especially when i go out of line in my position play. I want to be able to shoot any shot on the table any way possible (the 4000 shots possibilities) and still pocket the ball, sure it is much harder to master than TOI.