John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

Hi CJ,

That's a good introduction on the TOI...looking forward to your video. I have a few questions that I think you're video will probably address but wondering if you can confirm.

1) Is TOI used only after you define your reference/shot line and apply when you down on the shot?

eg. I'm shooting 2' oclock (2nd circle) at the cue ball to make an object ball in the top right corner at 30 degree angle as I'm looking to shorten my Tangent (hitting high) so that once it touch the rail..the spin 2 oclock will change my angle by widening it to get to my position. If I understand the concept correctly...using a TOI will help improve my % of pocketing the ball (if the shot is to the corner) since my target zone will be larger (sending to lower and center of the pocket depending on how good I shoot the shot). In this case, I apply a TOI meaning....I would need to move my cue tip parallel to my reference line (so it this case bring the tip back a touch toward the center?)

2) If I apply my TOI in the scenario above, the tangent line would only change if my shot instead of hitting center pocket...hit the lower corner? Is TOI another way of cheating the pocket to change you line(angles)?

3) I've been trying the TOI and what I notice is that it been quite useful in giving me confident to hit the shot harder and by itself give you a que to reference on with the cut shot. I can see why this technique can be additive to use once you get the idea.

4) If you using a Low Deflection shaft (eg. predator), doesn't this take away the effect of TOI?

Thanks again...really looking forward to learning more and hopefully I can use this concept and apply it to my own aiming system.

Thanks,
Duc.









CJ Wiley said:
The Touch Of Inside Video is 99% done and we're waiting on the producer's approval to download into the PPV Format.

Here is the introduction to my TOI Video, describing what demonstrations you will see, and why the results will give your Game a distinct advantage. Click This Link - CJ Wiley Introduces the Touch Of Inside Technique
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Hi Joey,

That's a great illustration 'tool'.

I'm going quite a bit further with my tip placement for TOI because I'm foucusing on the inner edge of my tip which is much flater than most with just the edges rounded & I'm using LD shafts. This difference could be why Mr. AtLarge was rather surprised that I said that to my knowledge I have never crossed over & hit the other side of the one that intended to hit.

Have you figured out how many different 3mm contact spots are available with in the miscue limit?

Best to You &
 
ENGLISH! said:
... I'm going quite a bit further with my tip placement for TOI because I'm foucusing on the inner edge of my tip which is much flater than most with just the edges rounded & I'm using LD shafts. This difference could be why Mr. AtLarge was rather surprised that I said that to my knowledge I have never crossed over & hit the other side of the one that intended to hit. ...
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Regardless of the curvature of your tip and your use of an LD shaft, I suspect you're going inside (1/2 tip in your case) much farther than CJ means by a TOI. Here's his test (do it a bunch of times to sort of average your results) -- put the CB on the head spot or foot spot (or anywhere else on one end of the table) and hit it straight down the length of the table and back to the near short rail using a TOI. Just use a medium-speed hit. How far to the side of the starting line did the CB strike the near short rail? For CJ's TOI, it would be just half a diamond.
 
AtLarge said:
Regardless of the curvature of your tip and your use of an LD shaft, I suspect you're going inside (1/2 tip in your case) much farther than CJ means by a TOI. Here's his test (do it a bunch of times to sort of average your results) -- put the CB on the head spot or foot spot (or anywhere else on one end of the table) and hit it straight down the length of the table and back to the near short rail using a TOI. Just use a medium-speed hit. How far to the side of the starting line did the CB strike the near short rail? For CJ's TOI, it would be just half a diamond.
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Mr. AtLarge,

If we're measuring from the center line of the cue tip, I am just under a 1/2 tip inside as I am alligning the edge of my tip on the center line so when the tip compresses the compression 'patch' would be just to the inside. As I said earlier, my tip is soft & rather flat with the edge simply rounded less sharp. I would say that I am making contact perhaps an 1/8" or less to the inside of center. If my tip was radiused say to a dime I would have to move it more to the middle to hit the same point. I think we are talking & measuring with different parameters in mind. Also if hitting what I would normally call medium speed, for me, I would get spin affecting shots of any real length, but I think I may be a normally softer shooter than most. That has been a bit of difficulty, for me, where the position aspect is concerned.

When shooting with english my focus is always to the center side of my tip. I don't play with numbers or fractions in mind. The only time my focus is on the center of the tip is if I am actually shooting on the center vertical axis.

I do not need to do CJ's test to gauge what amount of deflection I get. I'm cutting very thin full table shots into the pocket using TOI. All one needs to do is shoot a couple of shots & if one misses & sees where one misses, one merely makes the slight appropriate adjustment. In doing my 3 hour sessions I even used as many as 3 different shafts & a totally different cue to find the one(s) that works best with the TOI, for me.

No offense meant , but I think you might be getting too technical with the measurement specifics. Have you played a full 3 hours shooting every shot with the TOI? CJ is correct when he says that it takes about that long to develope the 'feel' for it.

I hope something here can be of help to you.

Regards &
 
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the TOI changes slightly depending on the angle of the shot.

AtLarge said:
Regardless of the curvature of your tip and your use of an LD shaft, I suspect you're going inside (1/2 tip in your case) much farther than CJ means by a TOI. Here's his test (do it a bunch of times to sort of average your results) -- put the CB on the head spot or foot spot (or anywhere else on one end of the table) and hit it straight down the length of the table and back to the near short rail using a TOI. Just use a medium-speed hit. How far to the side of the starting line did the CB strike the near short rail? For CJ's TOI, it would be just half a diamond.
Click to expand...

I don't want to confuse anyone before they see the video, however I'll give you a hint - the TOI changes slightly depending on the angle of the shot. There is an area of about a half a tip that I use to create any angle. I thought it better to not explain this part, it's much easier in person or on video.

The further you go inside, the more the object ball cuts. You can do this VERY precisely once you know the technique, TOI, like I've said is a complete system of play. It blends the three factors of SHOT SPEED - SHOT ANGLE - TIP TARGET, all into one system - THE TOI TECHNIQUE. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
ENGLISH! said:
...how many different 3mm contact spots are available with in the miscue limit?
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The miscue limit is about 1/2 the distance from CB center to edge (measured as a 2D disc), so about 15mm = five 3mm increments.

Is 5 increments enough for CB control? It's probably more than most players use.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The miscue limit is about 1/2 the distance from CB center to edge (measured as a 2D disc), so about 15mm = five 3mm increments.

Is 5 increments enough for CB control? It's probably more than most players use.

pj
chgo
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Thanks... but I was referring to the total, but I was being facetious not serious.

I don't play pool by numbers. But there are more than 5 points on the radius line of a circle.
 
ENGLISH! said:
... I do not need to do CJ's test to gauge what amount of deflection I get. I'm cutting very thin full table shots into the pocket using TOI. All one needs to do is shoot a couple of shots & if one misses & sees where one misses, one merely makes the slight appropriate adjustment.
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Well, then, be at choice -- as someone we know has said recently. But note that cutting in thin, full-table shots can be done with any amount of inside, from none to miscue-limit english (if the aim is right for the resulting combination of squirt and swerve), so I don't see that as a good measure of what CJ means by a TOI.

Have you played a full 3 hours shooting every shot with the TOI? CJ is correct when he says that it takes about that long to develope the 'feel' for it.
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I never play non-stop by myself for 3 straight hours. But I have experimented quite a bit with the technique to get the feel.

I see that CJ has teased us in post #1869 regarding previously unexplained variations on TOI. Let's see what that's all about.
 
MAKE SURE your stoke accelerates or this will not work properly.

AtLarge said:
Well, then, be at choice -- as someone we know has said recently. But note that cutting in thin, full-table shots can be done with any amount of inside, from none to miscue-limit english (if the aim is right for the resulting combination of squirt and swerve), so I don't see that as a good measure of what CJ means by a TOI.



I never play non-stop by myself for 3 straight hours. But I have experimented quite a bit with the technique to get the feel.

I see that CJ has teased us in post #1869 regarding previously unexplained variations on TOI. Let's see what that's all about.
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Let's turn the "tease," into more of a "please".:groucho:

OK, since you haven't put in your 3 straight hours (which I think is essential to "get it"), try this - Set up different shots that are ALL under a half ball hit (30*) and line them ALL UP like they're straight in.

Get down on the shot like it's straight in WITH YOUR EYES, And Then.... move your cue over parallel to the INSIDE, the same side as you're cutting the ball. If you're cutting to the right, use a touch of right, if you're cutting to the left, use a touch of left. MAKE SURE your stoke accelerates or this will not work properly. When you decelerate it puts "inside spin" on the shot and this is NOT correct, you will undercut the shots if you put unnecessary spin on the cue ball until you get used to it.

Follow straight through and let WHERE YOU HIT THE CUE BALL create the "cut angle". Aim everything straight in for ONE HOUR shooting ONLY under {under 30*) cuts. This may open up your mind to what's coming in the video....."empty your mind" before you do this, it's NOT going to be anything like you've experienced before.

IF you don't cut the ball enough simply set it up and go further to the inside until you make it (go though the cue ball straight - DO NOT pivot your cue in any way). Then move on to a different angle. Start out with angles "CLOSE" to straight in to "get the hang of TOI". 'The Game Will Be the Teacher'
 
Good Morning Mr. AtLarge,

AtLarge said:
Well, then, be at choice -- as someone we know has said recently.

The long thin cuts are certainly not the easiest of shots & I have been shooting them with spin for many, many, years both with outside & inside. My point was, that I can now shoot them with very little to no spin using TOI so I don't need to gauge the amounts of squirt / deflection that I am getting. I am not trying to vary the amount of squirt /deflection as CJ has suggestively implied in his response to you. I am trying to be as consistant with it as possible & adjusting my aim for different cut angles.

I never play non-stop by myself for 3 straight hours. But I have experimented quite a bit with the technique to get the feel.

I remember you said you were having trouble on spot to spot distance without getting spin. My suggestion is to hit them with a firmer grip & a firmer hit.

I see that CJ has teased us in post #1869 regarding previously unexplained variations on TOI. Let's see what that's all about.

Well he just re-stated it without actually saying but the answer is to vary the amount of squirt/deflection to get different cut angles from the same allignment. I knew that was what he was getting at because that was my problem when I first started with it, Aiming for a 'touch' & then getting too much. That's why I have tried to get a consistant amount on different aim lines.
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I hope the combination of CJ's & my response helps you with it.

Regards to You &
 
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CJ Wiley said:
... try this - Set up different shots that are ALL under a half ball hit (30*) and line them ALL UP like they're straight in.

Get down on the shot like it's straight in WITH YOUR EYES, And Then.... move your cue over parallel to the INSIDE, the same side as you're cutting the ball. If you're cutting to the right, use a touch of right, if you're cutting to the left, use a touch of left. MAKE SURE your stoke accelerates or this will not work properly. When you decelerate it puts "inside spin" on the shot and this is NOT correct, you will undercut the shots if you put unnecessary spin on the cue ball until you get used to it.

Follow straight through and let WHERE YOU HIT THE CUE BALL create the "cut angle". Aim everything straight in for ONE HOUR shooting ONLY under {under 30*) cuts. This may open up your mind to what's coming in the video....."empty your mind" before you do this, it's NOT going to be anything like you've experienced before.

IF you don't cut the ball enough simply set it up and go further to the inside until you make it (go though the cue ball straight - DO NOT pivot your cue in any way). Then move on to a different angle. Start out with angles "CLOSE" to straight in to "get the hang of TOI". 'The Game Will Be the Teacher' [/B][/FONT]
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OK, in my first session at the table today, I did your aim-straight-and-cut-'em-in-with-squirt-alone exercise for an hour. Observations:

- Pretty easy to get "dialed in" to pocketing the short shots that way.
- But often requires way more inside than a TOI -- fully out to the miscue limit for some shots to create enough angle.
- Could not get enough angle if the CB was really close to the OB.
- Not so easy to get dialed in on the long shots (no surprise there)
- Even made a bunch of spot shots from your favorite position of 2 diamonds up and 1 diamond over (which is a tad over 30 degrees :smile:) and my favorite position of slightly closer to the near side rail.
​
I imagine it would be possible to actually play this way, but I think it would be difficult and I don't think that is what you would advocate anyway.

My second session at the table today was also all "inside" shots (except for straights and, sometimes, 30-degree cuts)), but I did it differently from the first session. Instead of keeping the stick parallel to the line through the centers of the two balls, I pointed the center of the stick either at the center of the OB (for thicker shots) or at the outside edge of the OB (for thinner shots) while offsetting the stick from the center of the CB to the inside whatever distance was needed (from none to a lot) to create (by squirt) the angle needed to pocket the OB.

I think this method is different from combining your TOI with your Ultimate Aiming System (which also aims at either the center or edge of the OB). It's different because the amount of inside used is often greater than what you have been describing as a touch, and I did not make an initial aim at the full side of the pocket. Instead, I just tried to develop a feel for how much inside was needed to pocket the shot while pointing the stick straight at the OB's center or edge.

I kind of liked this second method, although I'd require much more time with it to judge its value for me versus my normal way of aiming.

Any comments welcomed.
 
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"Real Eyes" the simplicity of super-accurate shot making

I think this method is different from combining your TOI with your Ultimate Aiming System (which also aims at either the center or edge of the OB). It's different because the amount of inside used is often greater than what you have been describing as a touch, and I did not make an initial aim at the full side of the pocket. Instead, I just tried to develop a feel for how much inside was needed to pocket the shot while pointing the stick straight at the OB's center or edge.

I kind of liked this second method, although I'd require much more time with it to judge its value for me versus my normal way of aiming.

Any comments welcomed.[/QUOTE]


TOI is very different from my "Ultimate Aiming System", the TOI is a complete system of play and won't be referred to as an "aiming system". The 'Touch Of Inside Technique' blends shot speed, aiming, and and where you contact the cue ball into one method of play.

At first the players that I've worked with don't like the idea of creating angles with their tip and the cue ball (without "aiming"). Then when I show them how it actually works and the precision and accuracy it generates, they quickly "open their minds" to the potential of the TOI.

I know this is "common sense," however I'll say it again "the cue ball is the target and the tip is the only direct relationship we have to the Game."

Doesn't it stand to reason that it's easier to create every "shot angle" by using the TIP as a reference point connected to a consistent "target" on the object ball (center or edge is the only target you will ever need).

When the TOI Video is watched with "an open mind," everyone will be able to "Real Eyes" the simplicity of super-accurate shot making and distance will no longer matter.

When you're just connecting to the center or edge and creating angles with your tip, you will be the same distance from the target. The CUE BALL IS THE TARGET and you can control the distance and perception the cue ball gives you EVERY TIME - this is not true with the object ball.

Some people labor for years "trying" to see {a ghost ball} or a contact point on the cue ball (then try to hit the "contact point" with a cue ball "contact point" - talk about challenging:frown:).

This is a fruitless pursuit and will lead to many frustrating hours at the table. TOI makes the Game FUN AGAIN, because you no longer have to "think" about ball pocketing, you just "point, connect the dots and click". 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ WILEY
images
 
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CJ Wiley said:
... TOI is NOT my "Ultimate Aiming System" ...
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I didn't say it is; you misread again. Please re-read my post #1875. I'd appreciate your comments on this connection/pocketing method that I described in that post (which I experimented with after doing your "assignment"):

My second session at the table today was also all "inside" shots (except for straights and, sometimes, 30-degree cuts), but I did it differently from the first session. Instead of keeping the stick parallel to the line through the centers of the two balls, I pointed the center of the stick either at the center of the OB (for thicker shots) or at the outside edge of the OB (for thinner shots) while offsetting the stick from the center of the CB to the inside whatever distance was needed (from none to a lot) to create (by squirt) the angle needed to pocket the OB.

I think this method is different from combining your TOI with your Ultimate Aiming System (which also aims at either the center or edge of the OB). It's different because the amount of inside used is often greater than what you have been describing as a touch, and I did not make an initial aim at the full side of the pocket. Instead, I just tried to develop a feel for how much inside was needed to pocket the shot while pointing the stick straight at the OB's center or edge.​
 
This is how TOI works at the foundation

AtLarge said:
I didn't say it is; you misread again. Please re-read my post #1875. I'd appreciate your comments on this connection/pocketing method that I described in that post (which I experimented with after doing your "assignment"):

My second session at the table today was also all "inside" shots (except for straights and, sometimes, 30-degree cuts), but I did it differently from the first session. Instead of keeping the stick parallel to the line through the centers of the two balls, I pointed the center of the stick either at the center of the OB (for thicker shots) or at the outside edge of the OB (for thinner shots) while offsetting the stick from the center of the CB to the inside whatever distance was needed (from none to a lot) to create (by squirt) the angle needed to pocket the OB.

I think this method is different from combining your TOI with your Ultimate Aiming System (which also aims at either the center or edge of the OB). It's different because the amount of inside used is often greater than what you have been describing as a touch, and I did not make an initial aim at the full side of the pocket. Instead, I just tried to develop a feel for how much inside was needed to pocket the shot while pointing the stick straight at the OB's center or edge.​
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I changed it to "very different from," to be clear.

I recommended to aim straight at the object ball (Center/Center) and move your cue parallel to the inside to create the angle....is this not what you did? The "Touch" moves away from center cue ball to create more angle.....once you get to past "half ball" you shift to Center to Edge to create angles over "half ball".

This is how TOI works at the foundation. The 3Part Pocket System tunes in by calibrating the object ball to enter the pocket at the center point. To do this you would HAVE to be aiming at the nearest part of the pocket and the deflection of TOI forces it into the center.
 
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CJ Wiley said:
... I recommended to aim straight at the object ball (Center/Center) and move your cue parallel to the inside to create the angle....is this not what you did? ...
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Yes, I did, as I explained in post #1875. Perhaps you aren't getting enough sleep with this video production/editing.:)
 
experience the Game in a way that encourage FEEL for the game and the TOUCH required

AtLarge said:
Yes, I did, as I explained in post #1875. Perhaps you aren't getting enough sleep with this video production/editing.:)
Click to expand...

Now you know what I have to go though with a few people.;) It's always easier to personally see what you're doing (not knowing your skill level or the quality of your stoke). The one thing that's challenging to explain and some{lately} have picked up on is the "perception" part of the TOI. Even when I speak of a "perceived margin of error," some{players}take me out of context and think I'm magically increasing the size of the pocket. Just like when when a trained marksmen looks at a Bulls Eye, his perception, (though his experienced process of connecting his senses) in effect enlarges the target. Science fiction? Not at all, it happens in all types of sports.

How we visually experience the Game has a profound effect on our ability to perform. If you just see the table as a rectangle with round balls and pockets I would venture to guess you're stuck at a certain skill level, and having difficulty improving.

The drills and exercises I am introducing{'Billiards Inside Secrets}are ways to shift your perception, so you can start to experience the Game in a way that encourage FEEL for the game and the TOUCH required. Directing someone's attention towards the tip and fingers do this naturally.

Although, of course, there is a certain amount of deflection involved, there's also a visual shift when cuing the "Touch" Of Inside. This is how I create precise angles, no matter how far the object ball is from the cue ball. Especially off the rail this technique is lethal. I don't want to explain this further without the ability to demonstrate or I risk sending out a few ripples of confusion. To be absolutely clear it's vital to see how it works, then experience it as soon as possible for yourself.

The video is so close to being released I don't want to risk any setbacks for you if you're following these posts in detail. Pool has "super natural" qualities and I don't mean "ghosts and goblins," - there's "super" things happening through a "natural" process{visually} that enables the Game to "open up," and become as natural as possible. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley
 
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