Thinking backwards?

motic

motic

Blahaha
When playing I would always identify my immediate problems, tied up balls etc.. then start planning my run out from the first ball and think around 3 balls ahead.

I had been told on more than one occasion to try and think backwards, so last night I decided to give it a try and by my amazement I had a lot more run outs.

I did find that it took a bit more brain power and fatigued me a bit more, it was sometimes hard for me to visualize balls gone from the table (which would open up a previous unavailable pocket for another ball).

So what do you do, think forward or backwards?
 
Backwards for sure, but with a condition - priority #1 has to be to get control of the table. Usually, if your first shot is missable, you have to figure out your easiest shot and just cinch it. Then start planning once you're in control (at least one, preferably more easy shots, not stuck to the rail or jacked over a ball).

I basically just reserve balls mentally. First I reserve the ones that are necessary to solve problems like clusters. That may mean reserving 2 balls... one to break out the cluster, and one insurance ball to shoot afterwards.

Then I reserve my ball before the 8. If I have any balls unreserved at that point I will think about the best ball to get on my "key ball". But often once you solve all the problems and shoot your 'cinch shot' (or 2) to begin the rack, there aren't a whole lot of options left. The rack just sort of dictates the order.
 
Obviously you can do both productively. If the layout is tough, I'd start backwards. If its a roadmap, just work forward.

Although on 8 ball I'd suggest always starting backwards. One of the biggest mistakes people make is not selecting high/low balls based on the 8. Find which pocket you want to make the 8 in, then work backwards and figure out the easiest approach.
 
The game I play the most is BIH bar box 8 ball. The first thing I look at is the 8 ball - what pockets are available for it and what are the best "set-up" balls to give me position for the 8. If both suites of balls have good set up shots for the 8 then I can pick the suite with the fewest problems and plan backwards from the 8.
 
Hmm.. this sounds like a great strategy that I haven't previously thought about I'm going to have to give this a try.

If my brain explodes I'm blaming AZ.
 
vapoolplayer said:
Obviously you can do both productively. If the layout is tough, I'd start backwards. If its a roadmap, just work forward.

Although on 8 ball I'd suggest always starting backwards. One of the biggest mistakes people make is not selecting high/low balls based on the 8. Find which pocket you want to make the 8 in, then work backwards and figure out the easiest approach.
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I could see thinking backwards being way more effective with 8 ball and 14.1. I have a feeling that most champions think backwards.
 
Backwards, particularly in 8 ball. You need to determine the pocket you would plan to make the 8 ball in and the key ball you would hit just prior to the 8 ball that would set you up for a stop shot on the 8 into that planned pocket. With those two gone, you are down to 6 balls. Work backward from the key ball from there. Once I work the pattern backwards, I then quickly run it forward to see if it works out in that direction as well.
 
Planning backwards

nobcitypool said:
Backwards, particularly in 8 ball. You need to determine the pocket you would plan to make the 8 ball in and the key ball you would hit just prior to the 8 ball that would set you up for a stop shot on the 8 into that planned pocket. With those two gone, you are down to 6 balls. Work backward from the key ball from there. Once I work the pattern backwards, I then quickly run it forward to see if it works out in that direction as well.
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I've been teaching this since LBJ was president...
 
This is one of those things you get better at in time,and it becomes automatic. I personally am amazed that when i recognize a trouble area before I start my run, by the time i get there my sub conscience has figured out a plan. Also there is no shock or surprise, just some more Jedi powers that are disguised as luck...
 
Nah.

Only time I would waste my time doing that is if there is a very specific issue/problem that can't be dealt with until the very end. Even then it's very rare to have only one single out option.

99% of the time, it would just be a waste of everyone's time. :)

It's pool, not rocket science.
 
Waste of time?

RRfireblade said:
Nah.

Only time I would waste my time doing that is if there is a very specific issue/problem that can't be dealt with until the very end. Even then it's very rare to have only one single out option.

99% of the time, it would just be a waste of everyone's time. :)

It's pool, not rocket science.
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Virtually all the top players I've seen since 1955 plan their 8-ball runs backwards, easy lay-out or not. Now if you never miss any shots, you don't have to do much planning...

I've never considered myself a great player, but I've finished the season with High Individual League average 47 times; if there's any reasonable chance of running the table, I plan the run backwards. If not I look for a safety move on the table, and plan backwards from that.
 
At what level of shotmaking, cueball control do you recommend switching over to thinking backwards, and 3 balls ahead?
 
Donny Lutz said:
Virtually all the top players I've seen since 1955 plan their 8-ball runs backwards, easy lay-out or not. Now if you never miss any shots, you don't have to do much planning...
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That doesn't make any sense. Your saying your planning accounts for misses? How can you plan on missing?

Anyway....

It's just silly , especially in 8 ball. In a glance you should be able to pick a pocket for each ball, establish how you going to deal with any problems and then start your run.

I can probably count on 1 hand the number of guys on here that can plan out a whole rack shot by shot and execute that plan perfectly without error.

What's the pro average for a break and runs in 9 ball... like 30% tops ?

Your going plan out the whole run for the 1 or 2 times in 10 you actually run out? Wonder how many of those even went perfectly as planned. :)

Of course I'm sure being AZ there are tons of guys that can kill that stat in their sleep.

;)
 
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It may only be 1 or 2 times in 10 if I plan it out but it will most certainly be less than that if I don't plan at all. 1 or 2 times in 10 may not sound all that bad when you consider the number of times the table layout won't allow a planned run due to clusters and other kinds of trouble. Therefore the backwards laid out plan now takes into account your trouble balls first instead of dealing with them ad hoc and ending up with a stalled run and vulnerable to your opponents safety play.

RRfireblade said:
That doesn't make any sense. Your saying your planning accounts for misses? How can you plan on missing?

Anyway....

It's just silly , especially in 8 ball. In a glance you should be able to pick a pocket for each ball, establish how you going to deal with any problems and then start your run.

I can probably count on 1 hand the number of guys on here that can plan out a whole rack shot by shot and execute that plan perfectly without error.

What's the pro average for a break and runs in 9 ball... like 30% tops ?

Your going plan out the whole run for the 1 or 2 times in 10 you actually run out? Wonder how many of those even went perfectly as planned. :)

Of course I'm sure being AZ there are tons of guys that can kill that stat in their sleep.

;)
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nobcitypool said:
It may only be 1 or 2 times in 10 if I plan it out but it will most certainly be less than that if I don't plan at all. 1 or 2 times in 10 may not sound all that bad when you consider the number of times the table layout won't allow a planned run due to clusters and other kinds of trouble. Therefore the backwards laid out plan now takes into account your trouble balls first instead of dealing with them ad hoc and ending up with a stalled run and vulnerable to your opponents safety play.
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Well do whatever you think works for you.

It's still another arguement that makes no sense. You can establish your trouble areas anytime. But you cant' 'plan' a break out anymore than you can plan a 'miss' (especially a miss that somehow still let's you runout ;))

You can have a plan for a break out but your rarely ever going to know precisely how the balls are going to lay afterward. You setup for the breakout , hopefully with a cinch ball prepared and then you re-evalute the run after the break out based on what your left with.
 
Method

The aspect I like to use in the reverse order, or backwards path is to walk and chalk. As you circumvent the table, starting with the 8 ball and the best path to finish, is look at every object ball and their least troublesome pathway to the pockets. By seeing the table from every possible angle in your 360 Degree walk, your mind paints the picture of the layout, and logs the possibilities.

Once you are ready to start, standing at the cueball visualizing the first object ball,do a tick-tick(eye movement only) walkthrough from 1-8 and see how your choices feel. Proceed.

Should you, or your opponent alter the layout, do a walkaround on your next turn. Chalk and Walk.

I follow this routine, and have taught it to many beginning pool players. Surprisingly, many experienced players do not utilize this, and exhibit surprise when they have underestimated an angle or pathway from their one spot perspective.

It is a good question. Glad you have seen some immediate results. Good Shooting.
 
Planning is planning

RRfireblade said:
That doesn't make any sense. Your saying your planning accounts for misses? How can you plan on missing?

Anyway....

It's just silly , especially in 8 ball. In a glance you should be able to pick a pocket for each ball, establish how you going to deal with any problems and then start your run.

I can probably count on 1 hand the number of guys on here that can plan out a whole rack shot by shot and execute that plan perfectly without error.

What's the pro average for a break and runs in 9 ball... like 30% tops ?

Your going plan out the whole run for the 1 or 2 times in 10 you actually run out? Wonder how many of those even went perfectly as planned. :)

Of course I'm sure being AZ there are tons of guys that can kill that stat in their sleep.

;)
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No, you're reading quickly and not understanding.

I said that if you never miss (you make every shot you face) you don't have to any run planning.

You generally don't "plan on missing". But any smart player knows that EVERYONE MISSES, so it's a good idea to consider planning a little defense if you do. It's pretty basic strategy. There are also situations where it's to your advantage to miss and play just defense.

Just because every run doesn't go precisely as planned is not a reason to abandon a COMPLETE plan for the table run.

As I mentioned earlier, I've never considered myself a great player, but even at my age, when I'm playing well, I'd say half my table runs in 8-ball and 9-ball are just as I planned them.

I played as you do for the first dozen years of my pool life. I didn't run an awful lot of racks. Once I learned to plan every (reasonable) table backwards, I began running lots of racks and winning money, too. Strangely, I guess, it seems to work for my students as well...
 
Like a jigsaw puzzle.......

8 ball, 9 ball, one pocket, 14.1 or you name it.

Pool is kind of like a jigsaw puzzle. Many games are won or lost in the thought process.

After the break we need to look at the trouble spots and the good spots.

What can we do to make it better along the way?

Is there something we can bump here or there to make it better without causing more problems?

Is it going to be hard getting on the cash?

Backwards, middle or beginning.

If we had a jigsaw puzzle contest the players that sorted their colors first would have a big advantage on getting the puzzle done first.

Then there would be other secrets that the puzzle winners would use to win over and over.

Back Gammon, checkers and chess.

If you ever played any of these game you should understand.

Pool is like a puzzle. Sometimes the puzzle is easy and sometimes the puzzle is tough.

The secret is to make the tough ones easier with the right decisions.

We see it over and over in pool. The smart move beats the straight shooter.

front, middle and back. We need to look at them all.
 
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