BCA Green Fees at Nationals

[GARY LLOYD]

It really makes me wonder...

Are people really complaining about a greens fee?

$175.00 divided by 5 players = $35.00 per player divided by a 10 day event = $3.50 per day per player to play, practice, watch the pros, play minis, lessons w/ the pros, etc. etc.

Maybe I don't know a good deal when I see it... But I would gladly be able to do all that for $3.50 a day. The cost of one hour at an hourly table rate...

Really...??? Am I missing something here? I wish I could play my match, practice, play minis, get some lessons w/ a pro and watch 3 pro events over 10 days for $3.50 a day...!!!

I'm just saying...

 

[Papa Red]

I am sticking my head in here as one who is very unhappy with the newly established greens fees. I am the captain of a Mixed Open Team. When I saw the announcement about greens fees, I was intrigued. It sounds like a decent idea. Then I saw the amount - $175 per team, on top of the entry fee. That is pretty damn close to doubling the cost of entry.

As one has pointed out above, if you look at this fee as a "greens fee" - meaning, paying for table time - you would have to play 13-14 matches TO THE HILL for the numbers to work out. Look at a tournament board for this size field and you'll see that even the winning team will not play that many matches.

Mark, you say that the fees are inclusive of so many other benefits...free practice tables, free mini tables, free spectating at pro events, free "lessons" from pros... But those are NOT items that should be included in the Open Team division greens fees. If I want to watch a pro event, I'll pay you the $10 ticket fee. If Celtic wants to gamble all night or Papa Red wants to practice 24 hours a day, that should come out of their pockets.

What you're asking (decreeing, as it stands) here is that 80% of the players drastically overpay so that 20% can enjoy free benefits on our dime. When did Obama take over CSI pool?

Like I said above, greens fees can certainly take away some complication. I'm not surprised that your surveys have shown favor toward the idea. However, the way you've rolled them out is outrageous. All I would ask is that you apply some fairness and reason - which is sorely missing from this design.

I have some ideas if you'd like to talk. I gave you my number in the email. Call any time after 6:00 EST. Or we can chat here where others can chime in.

Seth Maxwell

If you don't spend $35 in a three day event, you are not there to play pool. If you come to the table at your start time and sit and wait till the match starts and go two and out, then YES you are being robed.

Question?
If your local pool room offered a three day pass for $35 to play all the pool you wanted too, would you take the offer. Enough said!

 

[cardiac kid]

I am sticking my head in here as one who is very unhappy with the newly established greens fees. I am the captain of a Mixed Open Team. When I saw the announcement about greens fees, I was intrigued. It sounds like a decent idea. Then I saw the amount - $175 per team, on top of the entry fee. That is pretty damn close to doubling the cost of entry.

As one has pointed out above, if you look at this fee as a "greens fee" - meaning, paying for table time - you would have to play 13-14 matches TO THE HILL for the numbers to work out. Look at a tournament board for this size field and you'll see that even the winning team will not play that many matches.

Seth, My team played in the Open finals last year. We came a hanging eight ball in the 24th game from winning. Our sponsor didn't spend $175 in table fees for the entire team event. Remember, it's every other game. Your team would have to play 350 racks.

Mark, you say that the fees are inclusive of so many other benefits...free practice tables, free mini tables, free spectating at pro events, free "lessons" from pros... But those are NOT items that should be included in the Open Team division greens fees. If I want to watch a pro event, I'll pay you the $10 ticket fee. If Celtic wants to gamble all night or Papa Red wants to practice 24 hours a day, that should come out of their pockets.

What you're asking (decreeing, as it stands) here is that 80% of the players drastically overpay so that 20% can enjoy free benefits on our dime. When did Obama take over CSI pool?

Pretty much the way I feel. In past years, CSI had to print tickets for the Pro events. Pay a staff to run the ticket distribution. Pay a staff for security and "wall" off a playing area. With this years offering, all those costs have been removed. I'm a lousy spectator. Only watched the finals of the One Pocket last year. Even with "free" entry into the Pro area, I still will not spectate. Honestly, over the Winter I e-mailed Mr. Griffin asking him to raise the entry fees. Specifically to pay for the removal of the "door nazi's". Not underwrite the Pro events.

Lyn

 

[Mark Griffin]

BCAPL Green Fees

Seth,
I called you on Thursday or Friday and left you a message, I believe it was about 6:30 pm. I also explained some of advantages of green fees.

I don't expect everyone to agree with this decision - but past surveys were overwhelmingly in favor of green fees.

We offer a lot more than other leagues who have been on green fees.

As stated before, I will discuss this - but I am not getting into any arguments or heated debates. All I can do is explain the whys of doing it this way.

Anyone can email me and I will send a written explanation of the benefits (when I get it written over the next couple of days).

I do appreciate constructive criticism - but I understand how it looks different from the outside, versus looking at it from the inside.

Mark griffin
Markg@playcsipool.com

Mark, you say that the fees are inclusive of so many other benefits...free practice tables, free mini tables, free spectating at pro events, free "lessons" from pros... But those are NOT items that should be included in the Open Team division greens fees. If I want to watch a pro event, I'll pay you the $10 ticket fee. If Celtic wants to gamble all night or Papa Red wants to practice 24 hours a day, that should come out of their pockets.

What you're asking (decreeing, as it stands) here is that 80% of the players drastically overpay so that 20% can enjoy free benefits on our dime. When did Obama take over CSI pool?

Like I said above, greens fees can certainly take away some complication. I'm not surprised that your surveys have shown favor toward the idea. However, the way you've rolled them out is outrageous. All I would ask is that you apply some fairness and reason - which is sorely missing from this design.

I have some ideas if you'd like to talk. I gave you my number in the email. Call any time after 6:00 EST. Or we can chat here where others can chime in.

Seth Maxwell

 

[cardiac kid]

I had an "epiphany" this morning regarding this subject. For the past ten years or so I've attended Super Billiards Expo. I've paid the $75 for each Open event I've entered. $60 for the Warm-up. From each entry Allen takes a percentage. Each $75 entry has $50 going to the prize fund. Each $60 in the warm-up has $50 to the prize fund. The balance must be divided between set-up costs, mailings, other operational costs and profit. Still had to pay to watch the "Pro" events. Get to play "free" from Wednesday evening through Sunday evening. Even if I lose in the Warm-up and immediately in the Open, still play free till Sunday evening. Also get to see some of the most amazing works of wood art sculpture for "free". Seems reasonable.

Why then do I question the green fees for the BCAPL Nationals? Don't plan on playing nine ball singles. Small chance I might play scotch doubles. Definitely eight ball singles. Small chance of nine ball teams and no chance of eight ball teams. For the $35 Singles green fee, I'll have paid to play from Saturday morning through Tuesday evening. If I lose, I can watch the "Pro" events for free. Sure seems reasonable to me now.

If I played in more events, it would cost more in entry and green fees. I'd also have more chances to win prize money. What is my problem? Myopic vision? Selective hearing?

Lyn

 

[MOJOE]

I love the Green's fees at Nationals. I hated having to lug around tokens for years. I don't worry about whether or not I break even, pretty sure I'm ahead by the time I leave IMHO..

 

[Scott Lee]

sethmax...I'm chiming in late here, but the solution is easy for you/your team...play or don't play. It's Mark's event, and he has provided plenty of input on value vs. cost, including input from other players. If you truly do not see why you should pay the green fees, then simply don't come to Vegas and play. If you do wish to play, simply obey the rules that have been set up for everyone. Seems pretty clearcut to me. Poll your teammates, and act accordingly.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I am sticking my head in here as one who is very unhappy with the newly established greens fees. I am the captain of a Mixed Open Team. When I saw the announcement about greens fees, I was intrigued. It sounds like a decent idea. Then I saw the amount - $175 per team, on top of the entry fee. That is pretty damn close to doubling the cost of entry.

As one has pointed out above, if you look at this fee as a "greens fee" - meaning, paying for table time - you would have to play 13-14 matches TO THE HILL for the numbers to work out. Look at a tournament board for this size field and you'll see that even the winning team will not play that many matches.

Mark, you say that the fees are inclusive of so many other benefits...free practice tables, free mini tables, free spectating at pro events, free "lessons" from pros... But those are NOT items that should be included in the Open Team division greens fees. If I want to watch a pro event, I'll pay you the $10 ticket fee. If Celtic wants to gamble all night or Papa Red wants to practice 24 hours a day, that should come out of their pockets.

What you're asking (decreeing, as it stands) here is that 80% of the players drastically overpay so that 20% can enjoy free benefits on our dime. When did Obama take over CSI pool?

Like I said above, greens fees can certainly take away some complication. I'm not surprised that your surveys have shown favor toward the idea. However, the way you've rolled them out is outrageous. All I would ask is that you apply some fairness and reason - which is sorely missing from this design.

I have some ideas if you'd like to talk. I gave you my number in the email. Call any time after 6:00 EST. Or we can chat here where others can chime in.

Seth Maxwell

 

[cardiac kid]

sethmax...I'm chiming in late here, but the solution is easy for you/your team...play or don't play. It's Mark's event, and he has provided plenty of input on value vs. cost, including input from other players. If you truly do not see why you should pay the green fees, then simply don't come to Vegas and play. If you do wish to play, simply obey the rules that have been set up for everyone. Seems pretty clearcut to me. Poll your teammates, and act accordingly.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Hi Scott,

The long and short of the situation is you are absolutely correct. Play or don't play.

As much as I like the idea of not carrying large coins, the greens fee does create a small dilemma. How do the tournament operators know who is or is not suppose to be practicing? Do you have people walking around checking your name against a list? How do they know it's you? There is great potential for "cheating" here. Personally, I think I'd be very angry if someone kept coming up to me while I was practicing asking for proof of some type. Guess in the end it's Mark's problem, not mine. Pretty sure I'll get my $35 worth.

Lyn

 

[Mark Griffin]

Lyn,

We are going to take steps to prevent anyone from playing without proper credentials. We have several plans we are formulating - and they depend a lot on how much demand for the practice tables.

We have a lot of new software we are checking out in Reno.
Things will be really neat in July.
There will be no cheating.

I believe when it is all over and done, most people will really enjoy everything the Rio and all it has to offer.

Mark Griffin

As much as I like the idea of not carrying large coins, the greens fee does create a small dilemma. How do the tournament operators know who is or is not suppose to be practicing? Do you have people walking around checking your name against a list? How do they know it's you? There is great potential for "cheating" here. Personally, I think I'd be very angry if someone kept coming up to me while I was practicing asking for proof of some type. Guess in the end it's Mark's problem, not mine. Pretty sure I'll get my $35 worth.

Lyn

 

[satman]

Let me put this in about greens fees

I am sticking my head in here as one who is very unhappy with the newly established greens fees. I am the captain of a Mixed Open Team. When I saw the announcement about greens fees, I was intrigued. It sounds like a decent idea. Then I saw the amount - $175 per team, on top of the entry fee. That is pretty damn close to doubling the cost of entry.

As one has pointed out above, if you look at this fee as a "greens fee" - meaning, paying for table time - you would have to play 13-14 matches TO THE HILL for the numbers to work out. Look at a tournament board for this size field and you'll see that even the winning team will not play that many matches.

Mark, you say that the fees are inclusive of so many other benefits...free practice tables, free mini tables, free spectating at pro events, free "lessons" from pros... But those are NOT items that should be included in the Open Team division greens fees. If I want to watch a pro event, I'll pay you the $10 ticket fee. If Celtic wants to gamble all night or Papa Red wants to practice 24 hours a day, that should come out of their pockets.

What you're asking (decreeing, as it stands) here is that 80% of the players drastically overpay so that 20% can enjoy free benefits on our dime. When did Obama take over CSI pool?

Like I said above, greens fees can certainly take away some complication. I'm not surprised that your surveys have shown favor toward the idea. However, the way you've rolled them out is outrageous. All I would ask is that you apply some fairness and reason - which is sorely missing from this design.

I have some ideas if you'd like to talk. I gave you my number in the email. Call any time after 6:00 EST. Or we can chat here where others can chime in.

Seth Maxwell

When you go to an event, and prepare for a match, do you show up right on time? And not even hit a few balls to warm up? I know a few people who do this, and yea, they are usually the ones going out early and complaining about the speed of the table or the cloth. I complained when VNEA first did this, til I got there. Went in the first day, before singles started and played about 2 or 3 hours, which would have cost me close to $40 in coins. Then showing up a few minutes early to each match, another 4 or 5 racks. It's very easily worth the money, if you go hit a few balls, instead wasting money in the casino til time to play a match. It really all boils down to whether you came to play pool or not. My advice is, try paying the green fee, and just roughly keep track of how many racks you go thru. Then consider at $1 a game, whether you got robbed, or if you saved a little money

 

[cardiac kid]

When you go to an event, and prepare for a match, do you show up right on time? And not even hit a few balls to warm up? I know a few people who do this, and yea, they are usually the ones going out early and complaining about the speed of the table or the cloth. I complained when VNEA first did this, til I got there. Went in the first day, before singles started and played about 2 or 3 hours, which would have cost me close to $40 in coins. Then showing up a few minutes early to each match, another 4 or 5 racks. It's very easily worth the money, if you go hit a few balls, instead wasting money in the casino til time to play a match. It really all boils down to whether you came to play pool or not. My advice is, try paying the green fee, and just roughly keep track of how many racks you go thru. Then consider at $1 a game, whether you got robbed, or if you saved a little money

Sam,

That's me at SBE. Must have played three or four HOURS of practice before and after my matches. Some people told me I practiced during my matches but that's another story. Incidentally, any chance you might know or know of Evert Snow? Played him in the finals of the Super Seniors last year. Said he was from your area.

Had always wondered whether VNEA's change to green fees from coin tables was in reaction to player input or their attempt to raise the cost of the tables to $1.25 at Nationals. If I remember correctly some players went across the street to Slots O Fun and purchased low priced tokens that worked in the Valley tables. Must have driven Gary Benson crazy!

Usually don't practice more than a rack or two during the BCAPL's. Have a 4' x 8' Brunswick with 860 in the family room. The house was only ten minutes or so from the Riv. The Rio is considerably further away. Will certainly use my green fees this year. Think I'm going to like it!

Lyn

 

[satman]

Yea

Sam,

That's me at SBE. Must have played three or four HOURS of practice before and after my matches. Some people told me I practiced during my matches but that's another story. Incidentally, any chance you might know or know of Evert Snow? Played him in the finals of the Super Seniors last year. Said he was from your area.

Had always wondered whether VNEA's change to green fees from coin tables was in reaction to player input or their attempt to raise the cost of the tables to $1.25 at Nationals. If I remember correctly some players went across the street to Slots O Fun and purchased low priced tokens that worked in the Valley tables. Must have driven Gary Benson crazy!

Usually don't practice more than a rack or two during the BCAPL's. Have a 4' x 8' Brunswick with 860 in the family room. The house was only ten minutes or so from the Riv. The Rio is considerably further away. Will certainly use my green fees this year. Think I'm going to like it!

Lyn

I know Evert. Played him quite a bit. He lives around Indy, which is about an hour from me. One of the biggest problems for VNEA, and the coins, were people from the BCA tourney having the tokens left over and using them in the tables. What are they gonna do with them, call up BCA and offer to sell them to them? Anyway, I think the green fee is a good deal at $35. I always hated puttin a dollar in, to run off a rack in less than 2 minutes, even when I was being staked. But if you don't dial in to the speed of the table, you got no chance of winning.