Is Someone That Competes at Pool Considered an Athlete

[CJ Wiley]

You use virtually every muscle and joint in playing pool

I've played in tournaments where stamina certainly played a big part in deciding who won. After eight hours playing without a break plenty of people begin to flag a bit.

I certainly agree with that, Luther.

I have trained now in martial arts more than half my life time. This type training was perfect for pocket billiards because of the mind/body/spirit connection in the training. The reason this compliments pool is because there's the same mind/body/spirit playing a role in every game.

The coordination and endurance it takes to play pool for 12 straight hours is tremendous and strenuous as well. You use virtually every muscle and joint in playing pool and the mental concentration required to compete at a game that has such limited margin of error is also wearing mentally and physically.

I was considered an athlete in other sports before pool, however, I certainly include pool as being as strenuous mentally as the martial arts. I believe it's the greatest game and would enjoy the opportunity to debate that live on AZ anytime with anybody. The depth of pool is far more complex than many people realize, until they see it with their "real eyes". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Secaucus Fats]

If someone sees at the table they sure as hell won't think I'm an athlete.

 

[evanlockhart]

The key is athletics which is basially defined as running, jumping, or throwing. I guess speed pool would be a sport due to the running.

The general definition of athletics is running, jumping, or throwing. Billiards lacks all of them

Hi English,

Where do you happen to live? In North America, athletics is pretty synonymous with sports in general. We refer to traditional athletics more as Track and Field. I think that's where you're getting the running/jumping/throwing aspect.

There were some great points made in this thread. The manner in which the game or sport is played largely dictates how athletic it is, but I don't think the level of athleticism dictates whether or not someone is or isn't an athlete. A 400lb. lineman might not be as athletic as Deion Sanders, but does that mean he's still not an athlete?

Citing a magazine, a television show, or even a sports network does not make something a sport.

I don't think anyone said that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Confederation_of_Billiard_Sports

The WCBS conforms to the Olympic Charter and is formally recognized as a sport. You'll see some of the obstacles they have already had to overcome in being recognized as a sport, similar to the same type of discussion you're seeing in this thread.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hi English,

Where do you happen to live? My whole life in the area of New Orleans, La. as indicated in my profile. In North America, athletics is pretty synonymous with sports in general. We refer to traditional athletics more as Track and Field. I think that's where you're getting the running/jumping/throwing aspect. The major 3 sports require running & throwing as do others along with jumping. They as well as others fit the defintion of athletics. Billiards does not & does not require strength, agility, or stamina.

There were some great points made in this thread. The manner in which the game or sport is played largely dictates how athletic it is, but I don't think the level of athleticism dictates whether or not someone is or isn't an athlete. A 400lb. lineman might not be as athletic as Deion Sanders, but does that mean he's still not an athlete? Agreed but both are playing an athletic game by definition of strength, agilty, or stamina.

I don't think anyone said that. CJ mentioned a sport magazine mentioning Alison Fisher as winning the most championships. My earlier points as entertainment vehicles along with the ESPN & poker analogy apply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Confederation_of_Billiard_Sports

The WCBS conforms to the Olympic Charter and is formally recognized as a sport. You'll see some of the obstacles they have already had to overcome in being recognized as a sport, similar to the same type of discussion you're seeing in this thread. The fact that they have to basically fight for acceptance as a physiacl 'sport' should indicate the ambiguity that in all of the time of the existance of billiards it has never been accepted as an athletic sport. The Olympic Committee recognizes Chess & Bridge as 'mind sports'. I think I said that Billiards might find its way into the Olympics under these considerations more so than the physical consideration. If not, i say it here.

Evan,

I know & understand your opinion & that of CJ, JB & others.

In CJ's definition of athlete it refers to the playing of a sport or game that REQUIRES strength, agility, or stamina.

The definition is not referring to a marathon of games played. It is referring to the playing of ONE game. One game of the 3 major sports as well as others requires 1 or more of those atributes.

The playing of one game of billiards does NOT require any of them.

It can require a bit of stamina to play a wind or brass instrument for a full symphony. Are musicians athletes? No not by definition because they are not playing a sport or a game.

You can not pick one portion of a definition & exclude the rest.

So is it necessary to be an athlete to play & even compete at a game of Billiards? IMHO No.

Are those that play Billiards athletes? IMHO Some are & some are not.

As to the magazine. CJ made a point that a sport magazine made mention of Alison Fisher. I think my points there, as well as, ESPN & poker stand.

Obviously I understand & respect the talent & unique skill set it takes to play Billiards. However, it does not require any real ATHLETIC abilty, at least not by the definition as offered by CJ. One is not require to be strong, Ga-Young Kim, agile, no quick, nimble full body movement required, stamina, not for one game as the defintion is referring. If we are going to include a marathon of games, then everthing done is done by athletes.

If there is another definiton we wish to discuss let's post it.

I hope the above can put this to rest, but I doubt it.

I consider myself an athlete. Am I engaging in athletic behavior when playing pool? My answer is no.

Am I a self trained, skilled, learned, & knowlegeable technician of a cue 'sport'. My answer is yes.

Does that make me an athlete? My answer is no.

By definition, if you are playing a game that requires running, you are an athlete.

By definition, if you are playing a game that requires jumping, you are an athlete.

By definition, if you are playing a game that requires throwing, you are an athlete.

Billiards requires none of the above.

Are people that play Golf athletes? By definition, no.

Is it a good idea to be physically fit to play Golf & Billiards? Yes, especially if one wants to be competitive & have a chance at winning as the competions are stuctured requiring mutiple games

If we disagree, then we disagree.

With Respect & Regards to You &

 

[Tramp Steamer]

According to CJ, JA, and JB, here is a short list of athletes. Maybe you all can think of others.
1. Fats (of course).
2. Dick Trickle (smoked Marlboros while racing).
3. John Daly (heavy drinker and smoker).
:smile:

 

[TCo]

Athlete vs athletic is the trip wire here. One doesn't necessarily beget the other.

I think the definition that we all want to use is for "athletic" and not athlete. A person could be athletic without being an athlete. Conversely, someone that is an athlete isn't necessarily athletic. (given the below)

Athlete(N): a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

Athletic(Adj): characterized by heavy frame, large chest, and powerful muscular development <insert joke about large chest here>

Take a bowler:
Person? - check
Trained/skilled? - check
exercises/sports/game? - check
Strength/agility/stamina? - check

Athlete? - check
Athletic? Maybe not so much

Think of this with a poker player, and consider they use the word OR not and. "OR" stamina. Play poker for 24 hour straight - stamina? Check.

 

[CJ Wiley]

pool's the toughest game I've ever played mentally, but not physically.

Evan,

I know & understand your opinion & that of CJ, JB & others.

In CJ's definition of athlete it refers to the playing of a sport or game that REQUIRES strength, agility, or stamina.

When you say "CJ's definition" I'm not sure if you understand it's Webster's definition, not mine. When I posted had a link to a real definition and an athlete is someone that plays a game of agility. Is pool not a game of agility?

I think this is pretty clear, many just didn't know you can play a game and still be an athlete. It doesn't matter to me personally, I play most sports and games to some degree, and pool's the toughest game I've ever played mentally, but not physically.

 

[evanlockhart]

I think i'm :deadhorse:

You can not pick one portion of a definition & exclude the rest.

I don't know what you're talking about? Either way, let's try to keep it copacetic.

And I was told I was long-winded one time. Hahaha,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Evan,

I know & understand your opinion & that of CJ, JB & others.

In CJ's definition of athlete it refers to the playing of a sport or game that REQUIRES strength, agility, or stamina.

When you say "CJ's definition" I'm not sure if you understand it's Webster's definition, not mine. When I posted had a link to a real definition and an athlete is someone that plays a game of agility. Is pool not a game of agility?

I think this is pretty clear, many just didn't know you can play a game and still be an athlete. It doesn't matter to me personally, I play most sports and games to some degree, and pool's the toughest game I have ever played mentally, but not physically.

CJ,

Sorry,

I know it's not your definition. I just referred to it has yours since you offered it up. I apologize for mis-speaking.

You can't say AZBers are not opinionated & affraid to 'defend' their opinions.

I think it's a fine line but I just don't see Billiard Players as performing an athletic activity. I do see & agree that one needs to be physically fit in order to be truely competitive at a multi day tournament level.

I too played other sports. Maybe that's where I'm coming from & I agree with you that pool is the toughest game mentally but also from a precision stand point as well.

I don't even remember what I said that got me pulled into this discussion.

Best Regards & Respect to You &

 

[JB Cases]

Another way to rephrase the question is SHOULD a person who plays pool be athletic?

As a former athlete who had very low body fat and who is now fat and with back pain I would say that a player who really wants to play their best should be athletic in their approach to playing.

Being in shape allows one to play at a higher level I think. Being limber allows a player to reach shots comfortably. Also being in shape sometimes helps with the mental game.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think i'm :deadhorse:



I don't know what you're talking about? Either way, let's try to keep it copacetic.

And I was told I was long-winded one time. Hahaha,

Evan,

Thanks for the chuckle.

All the Best to You &

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool is, without question, a game that requires agility and/or stamina.

why bother asking these subjective questions that have been asked 4 zillion times,.



65% NO
35% Yes


NOW WHAT?

Actually, this wasn't "subjective," the question was presented with the answer included from the Webster's definition of athlete. Pool is, without question, a game that requires agility and/or stamina.

 

[arnaldo]

Couple of short expressions I’ve heard over the years have always brought the matter into clear focus for me:

-- “Pool has been called *the* most precise sport in the world -- dealing constantly with split millimeters.”

--“ One of the undeniably fundamental requirements of running an exceptional number of continual racks in Straight Pool (and most of the short rack “smash break” disciplines as well) is: Sustained Excellence.”

IMHO archery, Olympic-level rifle shooting competitions, and indeed all cue disciplines are, for the above reasons, appropriately well within the sports realm.

(These reasons also, by inference, illustrate why chess is always referred to as a game and never as a sport, in spite of the fact that the game of chess requires, as with sports, great stamina for high-level performances.)

Arnaldo

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's common to think an athlete's play sports, when the truth is they play games....

Couple of short expressions I’ve heard over the years have always brought the matter into clear focus for me:

-- “Pool has been called *the* most precise sport in the world -- dealing constantly with split millimeters.”

--“ One of the undeniably fundamental requirements of running an exceptional number of continual racks in Straight Pool (and most of the short rack “smash break” disciplines as well) is: Sustained Excellence.”

IMHO archery, Olympic-level rifle shooting competitions, and indeed all cue disciplines are, for the above reasons, appropriately well within the sports realm.

(These reasons also, by inference, illustrate why chess is always referred to as a game and never as a sport, in spite of the fact that the game of chess requires, as with sports, great stamina for high-level performances.)

Arnaldo

Yes, whether pool is a sport or a game is another matter and can be argued. What I found interesting is, by strict definition, an athlete

can compete at either a sport OR a game. I had come to believe athlete's play sports, when the truth is they play games....as well. :thumbup:

 

[JB Cases]

I certainly agree with that, Luther.

I have trained now in martial arts more than half my life time. This type training was perfect for pocket billiards because of the mind/body/spirit connection in the training. The reason this compliments pool is because there's the same mind/body/spirit playing a role in every game.

The coordination and endurance it takes to play pool for 12 straight hours is tremendous and strenuous as well. You use virtually every muscle and joint in playing pool and the mental concentration required to compete at a game that has such limited margin of error is also wearing mentally and physically.

I was considered an athlete in other sports before pool, however, I certainly include pool as being as strenuous mentally as the martial arts. I believe it's the greatest game and would enjoy the opportunity to debate that live on AZ anytime with anybody. The depth of pool is far more complex than many people realize, until they see it with their "real eyes". 'The Game is the Teacher'

The paradox with pool is that the better the player the easier the game looks to observers. Thus a lot of people including pool players don't take the game seriously enough in relative to the true complexity of the game.

I think two hours is about the length of most pro matches. Two hours of walking, bending, stretching, throwing (which is what stroking is), going from a sitting position to a tightly controlled shooting position, over and over. And on top of that the player needs to focus intently.

Most competitive events don't take an hour and yet pool players are often in two hour matches and much longer. I don't care if you're fat if you can hold up under those conditions - and lets remember that pool players often have to wage many of these battles a day in tournament play - even if you're fat if you can fade this and play at championship level then you are an athlete in my opinion.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I miss those days

The paradox with pool is that the better the player the easier the game looks to observers. Thus a lot of people including pool players don't take the game seriously enough in relative to the true complexity of the game.

I think two hours is about the length of most pro matches. Two hours of walking, bending, stretching, throwing (which is what stroking is), going from a sitting position to a tightly controlled shooting position, over and over. And on top of that the player needs to focus intently.

Most competitive events don't take an hour and yet pool players are often in two hour matches and much longer. I don't care if you're fat if you can hold up under those conditions - and lets remember that pool players often have to wage many of these battles a day in tournament play - even if you're fat if you can fade this and play at championship level then you are an athlete in my opinion.

We used to mostly play "ahead sets" when I was coming up in the 80s and usually we would play 8-15 ahead. I've played guys like Reid Pierce and Jimmy Wetch 15 ahead sets on several occasions.

After about 8 hours you start to feel it in your muscles, after about 12 hours you start feeling the pain in your joints and after 20 hours you start feeling it in your tendons, and then in your bones.

I've played many 20+ hour sets and I'd wake up the next day and my whole body would ache like I'd played 5 sets of tennis or walked 54 holes of golf. I miss those days.

 

[cici]

The whole game/sport thing should clearly not be part of this debate. Almost all competitive sports are also games. After all it is the Olympic Games. The Inner Game of Tennis, a basketball game, the game of baseball, the game of football and so on. In our society the word game and sport is completely interchangeable for most competitive activities which require any physical interaction.

Just a quick aside: I don't think all sports are necessarily games. Gymnastics, while competitive, is not really a game; no one "wins" gymnastics. And as far as we're bringing the Olympics into this, there is an Olympic event simply called "Athletics" held during the summer games, so does only that event's participants get to call themselves true athletes? (Rhetorically speaking, that is.)

I do agree that the sport/game dichotomy is moot, though. Who decided that sports are more dignified than games? I firmly believe chess is a game and not a sport, but I have a much greater respect for chess than, say, dressage.

Anyway, my thoughts are that pool is more an art than a sport. (Not trying to prolong the flame war, just my two cents.)

 

[ENGLISH!]

Just a quick aside: I don't think all sports are necessarily games. Gymnastics, while competitive, is not really a game; no one "wins" gymnastics. And as far as we're bringing the Olympics into this, there is an Olympic event simply called "Athletics" held during the summer games, so does only that event's participants get to call themselves true athletes? (Rhetorically speaking, that is.)

I do agree that the sport/game dichotomy is moot, though. Who decided that sports are more dignified than games? I firmly believe chess is a game and not a sport, but I have a much greater respect for chess than, say, dressage.

Anyway, my thoughts are that pool is more an art than a sport. (Not trying to prolong the flame war, just my two cents.)

That's sort of my point too. Games ar played for the sport of it. Chess is played for the sport of it. The Olympic Committee considers Chess & Bridge 'Mind Sports'. Would one really consider chess & bridge players athletes unless it is a marathon session & stamina comes into play. I do not think the definition is considering a marathon of games when it refers to staimina to play a game. It is refering to one game, And...what game of pocket biliiards is to be considered? 8, 9 or 10 ball, straight pool, one pocket?


I understand where CJ & others are coming from. But I just don't see pool players being considered as athletes. CJ & others refer to agility & stamina as the argument to that end. Pool requires no agility as typically defined, quick & nimble body movement. One does not have to move one's body neither quickly nor nimbly to play pool. Look at Fats & Mr. Hall now. At what point does stamina come into play 1 game, 2, 3? as I said the definition does not refer to a marathon of games.

So... as JB sort of suggested, perhaps the question should be, since a Championship Tournament requires multiple games & multiple matches over the course of multiple days, SHOULD a pool player that competes in such an event be considered an athlete?

Then the answer could more correctly be stated, due to the reqiurement of stamina involved in that process, yes a pool player could be considered an athlete, unless of course he or she goes two & out.

So by that logic, one that competes in any game that requires stamina could be called an athlete if it is a marthon event. So a marathon backgammon tournament would allow you to call backgammon players athletes for sitting in a chair & rollling dice & moveing markers. For that matter a dice player in Las Vegas on a good run could be called an athlete.

I am certainly am not trying to belittle the atributes required to play games involving a cue stick. Training to acquire knowledge, playing or practicing enough to aquire skill to utilize the required instrument with dexterity & precision, wisdom as to know when & how to apply those skills.

As previously stated, pool is most probably the toughest game due to both mental requirements & the dexterity (not agility) required to handle the designated instrument in a precise manner, namely the cue stick.

Also as you stated, some 'athletics' are not games but are more on the line of performances for appreciaton & entertainment value involving the subjective opinions of judges to decide levels of success. However since Billiards is a game with a winner & a loser it does not fall under that catagory.

I agree with you that a cueist is more of an artist than an athlete, but due to the stamina factor of a Championship Tounament, I will concede that a competitor of such could be considered an athlete.

Regards to You &

 

[JB Cases]

Just a quick aside: I don't think all sports are necessarily games. Gymnastics, while competitive, is not really a game; no one "wins" gymnastics. And as far as we're bringing the Olympics into this, there is an Olympic event simply called "Athletics" held during the summer games, so does only that event's participants get to call themselves true athletes? (Rhetorically speaking, that is.)

I do agree that the sport/game dichotomy is moot, though. Who decided that sports are more dignified than games? I firmly believe chess is a game and not a sport, but I have a much greater respect for chess than, say, dressage.

Anyway, my thoughts are that pool is more an art than a sport. (Not trying to prolong the flame war, just my two cents.)

If you don't think anyone wins and loses at gymnastics then you have never been around high level gymnasts and high level competition. But I do understand where you are coming from with gymnastics being a demonstration of personal skill in a subjectively judged competition rather than being a battle between opponents where the objective score determines the winner.

Pool does not require agility but it requires a tremendous amount of dexterity. As well as the aforementioned stamina and physical control. If anything it's low-level athletics. Pool does not require the extreme cardiovascular effort that high level athletic sports require but it certainly requires physical effort that directly affects the outcome. Buddy Hall for example beat the whole world when he was skinny and kept getting worse and worse as he got fat. He can still play at a world class level but he is handicapped because of his girth and lack of stamina.

So in that vein if you happen to have a fat player who manages to play super strong for long periods then what you have is an athlete who is overcoming self-imposed handicaps to excel.

In my opinion of course. Today I happen to be suffering from a pinched nerve in my neck and it made it extremely uncomfortable to try and play. So again I say, if you can't play it with only your mind then it's a sport and the participants are athletes. I can play chess, poker, backgammon etc...without moving a muscle except my mouth to communicate the moves and every move will happen just as I direct it to. No one can play pool with only their mind. I could tell Efren Reyes through an earpiece what shots to play and with 100% CERTAINTY he will not be able to play them all exactly as I instructed him to. Nor would he be able to use me to play against a high level player because I lack the physical skill to execute the shots the way he does.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I consider pocket billiards an art form, like martial arts a way to express yourself

Just a quick aside: I don't think all sports are necessarily games. Gymnastics, while competitive, is not really a game; no one "wins" gymnastics. And as far as we're bringing the Olympics into this, there is an Olympic event simply called "Athletics" held during the summer games, so does only that event's participants get to call themselves true athletes? (Rhetorically speaking, that is.)

I do agree that the sport/game dichotomy is moot, though. Who decided that sports are more dignified than games? I firmly believe chess is a game and not a sport, but I have a much greater respect for chess than, say, dressage.

Anyway, my thoughts are that pool is more an art than a sport. (Not trying to prolong the flame war, just my two cents.)

Yes, whether pool is considered a game or sport has never been a consideration for me personally. I consider pocket billiards an art form, like martial arts, a way to express yourself, more like a musician or artist.