Unforseen benefit of TOI

[CJ Wiley]

UNINTENTIONALLY deflecting the cue ball enough to miss a shot.

I guess what I don't understand is....if you can't hit center cb on a consistent basis...how are you going to consistently pick and hit the same amount of TOI on a consistent basis.

I have reference points for center axis...I am going to need to use those same reference points to find TOI...

Seems like it would be much easier to set up center CB and then (with a solid bridge hand) on the final stroke favor either TOI or TOO......which for many shots is exactly how I apply English......what am I missing.


Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

There is a clear cut answer to your question, and I understand your confusion. I am now teaching this system to thousands of people on line and although this technique is common in other sports it's just now reaching the mainstream "pool world".

You're right, you can aim at center every time and achieve a certain level of success. The issue is if you are a hair off "center" the cue ball will still deflect slightly the other way. Since the cue ball is your only physical target (you only touch the cue ball during any game) you MUST hit the cue ball precisely to produce consistent results in your ball pocketing and position control.

What TOI does is give you a margin of error in your cue ball target. That means the cue ball will only deflect ONE WAY, rather than two. This means if you are the same "hair" off in your tip contact (to the cue ball) you will still deflect the cue ball in the same way (to over cut the shot slightly) and if you miss it on the other side you will hit CENTER and not deflect it at all (and hit where you're aligned to hit).

Think about this for a moment:

This means when you miss a ball you will have ONE type of feedback as opposed to TWO. This is like using a TWO HEADED COIN, rather than a normal one. In other words, when you try to hit center and you're off ONE HAIR you just have a 50% (all things being equal) chance of knowing for sure which way off center you errored.

This really shows up on shots you have to hit firm because you're more likely to hit off center and the deflection is amplified.

Try this test. Put the cue ball on the foot spot and the object ball on the head spot. Hit the cue ball with exact center and try to hit the ball on the spot and make it come back and hit the cue ball. Can you do it? How many times out of 10? Each time you don't do this it means you are hitting the cue ball slightly off center and UNINTENTIONALLY deflecting the cue ball enough to miss a shot.

Furthermore you won't know WHY you missed it. With TOI you will get this feedback and can make the necessary adjustments without having to guess. You also get a bigger "pocket zone" because you are always encouraging the object ball to "over cut," therefore you can align "aim" at the part of the pocket closest to the ball.

This increase in margin of error is really because your margin of error was increased at the cue ball contact{with TOI} where it's most important. The object ball simply reflects how you hit the cue ball and transfers the precision of the cue tip contact you are making. That's why ALL misses can be traced directly to how you hit{and were aligned to} the cue ball, not how you hit the object ball. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley

 

[CJ Wiley]

used to travel the road looking for "center ball strikers" to prey upon

What does TOI stand for?

If you're cutting a ball slightly to the right, you cue it slightly to the right.

If you are cutting it slightly more to the right, you cue it slightly more to the right. Cutting to the left simply reverses.

Touch Of Inside is cuing the cue ball to the same side as you're cutting the call so it's easy to remember and very effective, I"m just explaining the "why's" and "how's" of this technique.

This system enables the user to aim every shot like it's straight in.....to the center or edge of the object ball, thus simplifying the game immensely. This is an age old system used by road players that used to travel the road looking for "center ball strikers" to prey upon: :groucho:

At least that's the story the kids tell around the campfire to scare the other kids that don't see "the light". 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com

 

[CJ Wiley]

Aiming doesn't apply to applying a Touch Of Inside to the cue ball.

I don't want to turn this into an aiming thread, but no, I don't agree that this helps. Why add variables?

You're confused because you are trying to believe TOI is an "aiming system," and there's no way to put this technique in that category.

It would be like saying a golfer that draws the ball is using an aiming technique.

Or a tennis player that's using topspin is using an "aiming technique".

Or a bowler that curves the ball to create a "bigger pocket" is using an "aiming technique"

These sports use spin to create the ZONES, and in pool you can use spin/deflection or just deflection to create zones.

This is very easy to understand, if you try to experience it, but if you try to understand it your mind will try to confuse you with past experiences that don't even apply. Aiming doesn't apply to cuing a Touch Of Inside on the cue ball.

There's no reason to take that position intelligently, because TOI is more about speed, creating angles, increasing margin of error of your striking area on the cue ball. No where is there any aiming at the object ball involved, you simply align to the center or edge of the object ball....this is in not aiming, it's aligning, connecting, and creating pool shots.

 

[TSW]

<<<<<<<<<<<< believes this TOI is actually teaching most people to hit the true center of the cue ball for the first time :thumbup:

I agree with this.

Aim small, miss small. TOI is just making its users aim small. The rest is hokum.

But hey, if it works for you, keep it up.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I agree with this.

Aim small, miss small. TOI is just making its users aim small. The rest is hokum.
But hey, if it works for you, keep it up.

How can you aim any smaller than trying to put the center 1mm of a 13 mm tip on the exact center vertical line along the circumference of a round sphere?

 

[CJ Wiley]

line up center to center , then apply your TOI

My offhand shooting has improved by 800%.

I cannot play the length of the table shots yet, but playing on a half table I just started firing the balls into the pocket with no sweat. Heck, I can even draw the cueball because my stroke has loosened up with the gain in confidence. My pockets on my 9' Diamond table are 4.25" so it was tough to make shots consistently, until TOI opened my eyes again. I didn't change my stance or anything - balls just starting going in with alarming accuracy.

I am wondering if any of you TOI advocates have experienced this?

I believe I know why you are having trouble with your "length of the table shots".

Remember, with the TOI Alignment Method you are always aligning "Center to Center," or "Center to Edge". I have a feeling you're OVER CUTTING your length of the table shots and it's because you are aligning Center to Edge, when it should be Center to Center.

I know this seems strange, and sometime truth is stranger than logic.

Try cutting EXTREME cuts length of the table, and line up center to center , then apply your TOI and TRUST IT. I can cut the paint off the call length of the table and I align CENTER TO CENTER to do it. This is one of those strange things about pool, if we don't open our mind to new ideas we may miss something that's simple to fix.

Johnny Archer helped me with something along these lines (at last year's Mosconi Cup) about competition and, even though "I knew it" at one time, it had been forgotten due to lack of competition. "Thanks, Johnny, by the way". :thumbup:

Try this and let me know how it goes. Shot making is more about feel than eye sight, FEEL YOUR ANGLES and you will enjoy and play the game better. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley

 

[nahog99]

Geoff,

That's good. But I'm not sure you fully understand CJ's TOI as it really is not an aiming system.

And...you don't need to understand it. If you're happy with where you are then all is fine, good, & well with you.

I hope you hit the center everytime you want to do so.

Regards,

Why is everyone talking about TOI like you are supposed to do it on every shot? I dont know about you, but during the course of a few games to get good shape I usually use stop shots, stun shots, little draw, big draw, force follow, top right, top left, straight right, straight left, stun shots with a little left or right, and pretty much every variation in between. What is all this BS about touch of inside? Are we talking about being able to make ONE ball without any thought of the shape afterward? Because to me it would be quite hard to move the cue ball around the table using TOI on every shot. What is the ****ing point of TOI?

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'd be happy to prove this at any time on streaming video if I have any challengers

Why is everyone talking about TOI like you are supposed to do it on every shot? I dont know about you, but during the course of a few games to get good shape I usually use stop shots, stun shots, little draw, big draw, force follow, top right, top left, straight right, straight left, stun shots with a little left or right, and pretty much every variation in between. What is all this BS about touch of inside? Are we talking about being able to make ONE ball without any thought of the shape afterward? Because to me it would be quite hard to move the cue ball around the table using TOI on every shot. What is the ****ing point of TOI?

Yes, I played most of my adult life using the TOI on every shot that isn't straight in or obviously where I have to curve the cue ball or change the natural angle off the rail.

I learned it though a line of road players and developed it to teach after the "extinction of road players" You don't need outside spin to play the game as far as pocketing balls and getting position. I'd be happy to prove this at any time on streaming video if I have any challengers here in Dallas.

There were many famous players that used this technique or something similar....it's a NO SPIN System of play and EVERY EFFECTIVE in gambling.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Time crossed. I was going to answer but I defer to CJ.

But...I find the number of 'new' members that are questioning the 'validity' so to speak of the TOI / 3 part pocket method of shooting pocket billards interesting.

I guess it is just my experience as a maritime investigator that makes me observant & suspicious.

 

[jackpot]

played some cheap

C.J.
played someone some cheap $10.00 nine ball for first time after I got
DVD and talked to you. Broke even two times before. Although I didn't
use TOI as much as I should I did use it quite a bit. It was the difference.
Last game the eight is about a quarter inch off the side rail just past the
side pocket. Nine ball on the other side. This is a sticky worn cloth 9 ft
diamond. CB is at other end just little off angle. Normally I would just
try to cinch the 8 and take the tough shot on the 9. If you hit it hard
enough to get it back to the middle of the table with OS it would have
jawed. I hit it warp speed with TOI, it sounded like a firecracker, hit the
back corner and dove in the pocket. The CB ends up past the middle of
the table , easy 9 ball. He unscrewed I'm 10 games winner. Going to give
him the 8 next time. I'm feeling more confident each time I play with
TOI .
jack

 

[ENGLISH!]

jackpot,

I've been doing the same type things in my individual money league. I hope no one else in the league finds out about it.

Best Regards,

 

[nahog99]

I still don't get it. What am I supposed to do when I need to draw the ball? Just say screw it and hit it with a touch of inside? This doesn't make sense. I watched cj playing earl Strickland and he is not hitting a touch of inside on every shot. He had to out bottom outside one time to get back to the middle of the table on a shot. I just don't understand the concept of using ONE type of english the majority of the time. Why not be proficient at every type of English? I don't think Alex pagulayan used TOI on every shot he played against Scott frost the other day did he? He used all kinds of shots and used the correct type of shot for the situation. If anyone can honestly tell me how using a touch of inside English will get me on a ball that requires a 8-10 inch draw back I will shut up.

 

[jeffj2h]

TOI vs Low Right

CJ,

In my initial practice I'm having good success pocketing the calibration shots you suggested on your blog. But I'm wondering how to get shape on some traditional outside english shots.

For example, with lower-right I can draw the CB back above the 5 for shape on the 5 into the corner it is closest to. With TOI and draw the CB comes back below the 5.

How do you suggest shooting this shot?

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[nahog99]

Still no answer weird.

 

[nahog99]

CJ,

In my initial practice I'm having good success pocketing the calibration shots you suggested on your blog. But I'm wondering how to get shape on some traditional outside english shots.

For example, with lower-right I can draw the CB back above the 5 for shape on the 5 into the corner it is closest to. With TOI and draw the CB comes back below the 5.

How do you suggest shooting this shot?

Thanks,
Jeff

This is a perfect example of why using a touch of inside English on every shot is retarded. You can't possibly use a touch of inside English on every shot. Certain shots require different English. Practice the same shot with multiple kinds of English and your game will improve far more than wih some stupid gimmick that only helps make balls with no regard for shape.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I draw the cue ball the majority of the time with a Touch Of Inside.

I still don't get it. What am I supposed to do when I need to draw the ball? Just say screw it and hit it with a touch of inside? This doesn't make sense. I watched cj playing earl Strickland and he is not hitting a touch of inside on every shot. He had to out bottom outside one time to get back to the middle of the table on a shot. I just don't understand the concept of using ONE type of english the majority of the time. Why not be proficient at every type of English? I don't think Alex pagulayan used TOI on every shot he played against Scott frost the other day did he? He used all kinds of shots and used the correct type of shot for the situation. If anyone can honestly tell me how using a touch of inside English will get me on a ball that requires a 8-10 inch draw back I will shut up.

I think you're misunderstanding. The TOI is used for low, middle and high English. I draw the cue ball the majority of the time with a Touch Of Inside. I also follow it with TOI, and shoot off the rail with TOI.....just don't do it when you're straight in or you'll deflect it out of the pocket, instead of into the pocket.

Using the TOI means you're favoring the Inside of the cue ball, it has nothing to do with using low or high.

 

[CJ Wiley]

We will be able to answer all your questions LIVE and demonstrate them right away.

CJ,

In my initial practice I'm having good success pocketing the calibration shots you suggested on your blog. But I'm wondering how to get shape on some traditional outside english shots.

For example, with lower-right I can draw the CB back above the 5 for shape on the 5 into the corner it is closest to. With TOI and draw the CB comes back below the 5.

How do you suggest shooting this shot?

Thanks,
Jeff

I show these examples in the TOI video, and this is where you need to experience hitting the shots.

In your example I can easily draw the cue ball down towards your "blockers". What you have to realize by doing this is when you hit the cue ball slightly Inside it will deflect and therefore you are able to hit the object ball FULLER.

This enables you to get the cue ball {most} anywhere with the TOI that you can with outside english. There are times when you use "outside" and you still come down to the TOI point, then pivot to where you want to put outside and you will perfectly aligned to do so. This is better than just coming down to the outside, and when you try it, you will understand why. If I was there I could easily show you these things and answer your questions through example and demonstration. We're putting together a way to do this via computer in the near future. We will be able to answer all your questions LIVE and demonstrate them right away.

We really want you to understand these principles, because once you "click" you will enjoy the Game more and play better right away. The Game of pool is learned in levels, first you need a solid foundation, then you can build....the foundation is in your feet and pre shot routine, the TOI is a higher level, and it's possible to learn both simultaneously if you're getting the correct information. I'll have more info at www.cjwiley.com very soon.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I still don't get it. What am I supposed to do when I need to draw the ball? Just say screw it and hit it with a touch of inside? This doesn't make sense. I watched cj playing earl Strickland and he is not hitting a touch of inside on every shot. He had to out bottom outside one time to get back to the middle of the table on a shot. I just don't understand the concept of using ONE type of english the majority of the time. Why not be proficient at every type of English? I don't think Alex pagulayan used TOI on every shot he played against Scott frost the other day did he? He used all kinds of shots and used the correct type of shot for the situation. If anyone can honestly tell me how using a touch of inside English will get me on a ball that requires a 8-10 inch draw back I will shut up.

I was going to try but then I saw CJ's response so I deferred. I'll try, but it seems that you have a closed mind to it.

TOI is not a touch of inside english. The desire is to get as little spin as possible & still make the shot. TOI is a means of deflecting/squirting the cue ball. The primary shot would be to line up for a center hit cue ball shot that would send the OB just inside the pocket point on the full hit side of the pocket. Then postion the cue stick just a touch parallel to the inside & stroke staight along that line. Doing that would deflect/squirt the CB to the outside & add cut to the OB sending it into the center of the pocket. Too much squirt & the OB goes into the thin cut side of the pocket. Not enough or no squirt & the ball still goes into the full hit side of the pocket.

Now the shot must be struck with acceleration & hit firm enough that the bit of inside spin does not take effect causing any swerve & is still there when contact is made. If so it will counter the outside spin that is normally picked up by the CB on any cut shot. Thus it 'floats' and should have no running spin when hitting a rail.

The CB can be hit high, center, low, anywhere up or down but a bit or touch to the inside of the vertical axis.

CJ has said that he does not hit TOI if the shot is straight in, the CB must be curved, or the angle from off a rail NEEDS to be changed. So, on the occasion to change the angle off a rail he startes with TOI & pivots to center or just past to put running spin onto the CB.

You can draw the ball with TOI & and you can follow with TOI & you can stop with TOI.

I hope this helps if that is your desire.

Regards.

 

[CK6Speed]

Post edited because I saw CJ answered the questions

 

[Yukon Ed]

CJ,

In my initial practice I'm having good success pocketing the calibration shots you suggested on your blog. But I'm wondering how to get shape on some traditional outside english shots.

For example, with lower-right I can draw the CB back above the 5 for shape on the 5 into the corner it is closest to. With TOI and draw the CB comes back below the 5.

How do you suggest shooting this shot?

Thanks,
Jeff

You're never going to get an adequate answer to this. All the posters that have been debating the science of pool & billiards, for years on this forum or rec.sport.billiards, have either given up posting on this subject or have been banned from this forum. Danny Diliberto has taught center ball (high, low, and inbetween) his entire life. Tell him about TOI and get his opinion.

"10 Most Common Mistakes by Danny DiLiberto"
"Hitting Cue Ball Off Center- Left or Right (getting position for next ball is determined by the angle you have on object ball and striking the cue high, low or center)"