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Unforseen benefit of TOI
- Thread starter whitewolf
- Start date
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Try this drill...set up a box of all 15 balls around a corner pocket (2 diamonds X 2 diamonds out, with each anchor ball frozen to the rail). Start at the foot rail and run them in the corner in order, without touching another ball or missing--or you start over). You can start with an easier set up of 7 balls, one diamond X one diamond, but move up to the harder 15 ball set up as soon as you can. Use TOI, but soon you'll see you HAVE to use outside (BHE from the TOI line). This will clearly show you the limits of TOI with only draw/follow vice a little BHE outside. It actually validates the TOI technique, but because you're finessing the shots and in order to stay in line you'll need to use outside too...just remember that it's BHE from the TOI line and you'll see EXACTLY how this works. See how long you can strike the CB on the TOI line before you have to resort to BHE outside. Once you're back in line, go back to TOI without english until you once again have a line that requires you to use a little BHE outside. Always set up on the TOI line, regardless of whether or not you must shift BHE to a little running english. I do this for one hour as warm up (believe me, it makes you sweat, it's HARD)...then, I can't miss.
After that, run a couple of racks of the game of choice to calibrate your "firmer" strikes and landing zones, too. You'll be amazed.
After that, run a couple of racks of the game of choice to calibrate your "firmer" strikes and landing zones, too. You'll be amazed.
You are dead right! to be master of the game you have to know how to shoot with every kind of english, no english, all kind of speeds, elevation, .....you name it. I call them 4000 shots rules.
However, i have to admit CJ's insistence on his TOI made me aware of the fact that i do not need too much english and does help pocket balls that are normally under cut; similarly applying a TOO (outside) help pocket those balls that i tend to over cut. The catch is your stroke has to be flawless , with nice follow through and know when to stun and when not.
it's more important to have "better choices," not "more choices."
I understand the game of 4000 shots, believe me, when I came back from not playing for several years I tried that game. It was a blessing in disguise because the game was so difficult that I worked fanatically on my fundamentals and as a result they're better than before.
When I came out of retirement, my first tournament was the US OPEN and even though I finished 9th (with wins over Earl Stickland and several top professionals), the game was still not "natural" and I think I was trying to play the "4000 shot game" and it made me not want to play....so I lost interest and did the nightclub business for another couple of years.
This time I got this burning desire to play again, and to figure out once and for all what the heck I used to do that seperated me and gave me the confidence to play Efren, Earl, Johnny, Sigel, Varner, Mizerak, Rempe, etc and actually come out on top (even though they all did certain things better than I did).
I knew when I was playing my best I thought of two things: Touch Of Inside and Accelerate!!! This seemed like it was too easy and I had been doing this, however, I just couldn't get myself to do it every time (some of you already know that feeling).
Then one day it "clicked" and I understood that the Touch Of Inside was indeed a system of play. Not the "4000 ball system," but a system where I could play a consistent shot speed, shot angle, and cue ball target and it would align perfectly to the geometry of the pool table.
Not just because the table was two perfect squares and a rectangle, and many triangles.....the reason TOI works is because of the perfection of the cue ball and object balls. It works because of the spheres and when you cue the ball to the inside it opens up the Game and it starts to tell me the shot, not "one" of the 4000, just one shot, the TOI shot.
The Touch of Inside changed the Game for me - I don't have to think anymore because the table tells me the TOI Shot and I don't have 4000 choices. I used to think more choices were better, now I know that it's more important to have "better choices," not "more choices." 'The Game is My Teacher'
I understand the game of 4000 shots, believe me, when I came back from not playing for several years I tried that game. It was a blessing in disguise because the game was so difficult that I worked fanatically on my fundamentals and as a result they're better than before.
When I came out of retirement, my first tournament was the US OPEN and even though I finished 9th (with wins over Earl Stickland and several top professionals), the game was still not "natural" and I think I was trying to play the "4000 shot game" and it made me not want to play....so I lost interest and did the nightclub business for another couple of years.
This time I got this burning desire to play again, and to figure out once and for all what the heck I used to do that seperated me and gave me the confidence to play Efren, Earl, Johnny, Sigel, Varner, Mizerak, Rempe, etc and actually come out on top (even though they all did certain things better than I did).
I knew when I was playing my best I thought of two things: Touch Of Inside and Accelerate!!! This seemed like it was too easy and I had been doing this, however, I just couldn't get myself to do it every time (some of you already know that feeling).
Then one day it "clicked" and I understood that the Touch Of Inside was indeed a system of play. Not the "4000 ball system," but a system where I could play a consistent shot speed, shot angle, and cue ball target and it would align perfectly to the geometry of the pool table.
Not just because the table was two perfect squares and a rectangle, and many triangles.....the reason TOI works is because of the perfection of the cue ball and object balls. It works because of the spheres and when you cue the ball to the inside it opens up the Game and it starts to tell me the shot, not "one" of the 4000, just one shot, the TOI shot.
The Touch of Inside changed the Game for me - I don't have to think anymore because the table tells me the TOI Shot and I don't have 4000 choices. I used to think more choices were better, now I know that it's more important to have "better choices," not "more choices." 'The Game is My Teacher'
Hey Jeff,
This shot is like a transition point for me when I use a TOI. If it's close to the rail, I'd use more center ball or outside. If it's off of the rail I'd use a TOI. I need enough room for the draw to take affect and get the cue ball moving backward before it hits the rail.
If the object ball is close to the rail, it kills a little and will come more straight across the table. If it's on the rail, outside spin is my choice.
Best,
Mike
Everybody's game is their own and certain styles don't mesh with each one of us. TOI can be used all of the time, never, or sparingly in our games. It's a tool in the tool box. How and when we use it will suit our style and perception of the game.
Best,
Mike
I don't understand your comment concerning long extreme cut shots. BTW, the trouble I was having with long shots was shooting off handed. But, indeed, may last stage of learning TOI is the long medium to extreme cut shots. I believe this will just take some more practice, and some more practice :grin:.
In your DVD, you state that when a cut angle becomes a half ball hit or more, then you use more inside english (two tips for example). But now you are telling me to line up center to center. Every example you have on the CD where more than a half ball hit is concerned, you state to simple go over two tips.
He is probably over on the aiming section using more left brained analysis along with PJ and company. Yeah, go for that exact spot on the cue ball - that's the ticket! :grin-square:
I agree. I am farily sure that CJ does not have to be here on AZB. I know I and others do appreciate CJ being here.
Can you amend your last sentence so that it is more clear that you are being sarcastic. Some might take you literally.:wink:
Regards,
Yes I have been playing a short amount of time relatively, but I have been very passionate about it. Playing 60+ hours a week. I never said anything whatsoever about my own playing ability. I'm simply getting into a discussion about the thoery here BECAUSE I am still learning. I am absolutely going to give this a try after i read up on it some more. I am a firm believer in the more knowledge the better. However, I also don't want to get myself stuck on one way of thinking when there are SOOO many ways of going about this game. The main question I have asked multiple times, which no one has yet answered, is why not be proficient in all forms of english? Why should I devote more time to a touch of inside english than i do other english? Another question is how would this type of shooting work in One pocket? I would imagine it is useless no?
I said earlier that I understand the merits of it and I'm sure he's onto something because he is a great player and a lot of players on this forum seem to agree with the teaching. I do wonder however how much of the "gain" from using TOI comes from simply focusing harder on your shot. If my thought process is now, hit just inside, deflect slightly, spin back, cancel out throw induced spin and aim to cheat the pocket.... then i must be intently focused to execute that shot and perhaps that FOCUS is why I'm pocketing more balls. I think this is a valid point considering almost all of the great players use outside and inside equally. The reason they are great players is because they execute ANY shot they are trying to go for. There are a million ways to make any one single shot and I ideally want to be as good as possible at making them all. Like i said I am a relatively new player and am definitely still learning. My worry with this system is that I would try it out, it works, and then i get screwed later on down the road from having too much of a "one man army" shot arsenal. How well will I be able to make shots with extreme low outside after I've been shooting TOI for years?
What we are talking about here is just a theory, seemingly a good one that works, but still one of many. I just fundamentally don't agree with taking away half the cue ball for any given shot that is all. That said I will still give it a try.
Also as far as my playing ability just so we can have it on record for the next time someone goes through my posts
I started off playing pool(period) about a year and 4 months ago. I started playing because my buddy was on an apa league and it sounded fun. I told him I am going to REALLY suck right now but I'll get better. I lost my first 9 in a row and was a SL 3 for a while and in the first 8 months i moved up to a SL 6. I am not the greatest player in the world by ANY means and i can still be beat by pretty much anyone at any time, I'm not running the table all the time. All that said, I'm happy with how much I've advanced in such a short time. Also I looked up CJ and yes he is a great player no doubt. The reason I had never heard of him is because he isn't really "on the scene" at the moment and as i said, 1 year and 4 months ago i had played maybe 10 games of pool in my life so i obviously didn't know of him from long ago. I apologized to him for being a drunken ass, and now I will always know who he is.
EDIT: Also that post of mine you put up was really about the principle of having a "robot detector" that requires something more than logic to prove you are human. Yes I was dumb and Naive and didn't know the answer, I clearly figured it out and maybe that is the point of it.. to get you to learn a little. Still don't like it from a webpage standpoint.
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CJ , IMO there is no substitute for knowing all the knowledge in pool to be master of the game, the 4000 shots, one can select TOI as main form of shots, but at times other shots are needed, so one has to be armed; just like 4 years college degree in engineering, sure i do not need history, and english literature, or chemistry much, but for over all well rounded engineer you have to study them in order to graduate, and put on the shelf.
Yes I have been playing a short amount of time relatively, but I have been very passionate about it. Playing 60+ hours a week. I never said anything whatsoever about my own playing ability. I'm simply getting into a discussion about the thoery here BECAUSE I am still learning. I am absolutely going to give this a try after i read up on it some more. I am a firm believer in the more knowledge the better. However, I also don't want to get myself stuck on one way of thinking when there are SOOO many ways of going about this game. The main question I have asked multiple times, which no one has yet answered, is why not be proficient in all forms of english? I would say that I am fairly proficent with all forms of englsh since I have been playing with them for 46 years since I was 13 years old. That being said, I have just learned about TOI form CJ here on AZB in the last few months. If had known about TOI back before I met the young woman that would become my wife of the last 32 years, I might have gone pro way back then. No one said don't become proficient with all spins, but what CJ is saying, is that to him there is a better way than using spin so much. Why should I devote more time to a touch of inside english than i do other english? Here's the thing, You are arguing aainst something that you do not understand, TOI IS NOT INSIDE ENGLISH. TOI with the 3 part pocket system is a method of pocketing balls & controlling the cue ball through the means of CB deflection/squirt. Do you know what cue ball deflection/squirt is? If not, that is the question you should be asking. Another question is how would this type of shooting work in One pocket? I would imagine it is useless no? Search CJ's post. He just posted recently how badly he whipped up on someone in 1 pocket using TOI.
I said earlier that I understand the merits of it and I'm sure he's onto something because he is a great player and a lot of players on this forum seem to agree with the teaching. I do wonder however how much of the "gain" from using TOI comes from simply focusing harder on your shot. If my thought process is now, hit just inside, deflect slightly, spin back, cancel out throw induced spin and aim to cheat the pocket.... then i must be intently focused to execute that shot and perhaps that FOCUS is why I'm pocketing more balls. I think this is a valid point considering almost all of the great players use outside and inside equally. When one is shooting with english, as I have for 46 years, one is focused & one is concentrating. The benefits of TOI is not just to make one concentration & focus. IMHO less concentation is needed with TOI. The benfits are physical ones on the table. The reason they are great players is because they execute ANY shot they are trying to go for. There are a million ways to make any one single shot and I ideally want to be as good as possible at making them all. Agreed. & IMHO you should learn to make them all with TOI as well. Like i said I am a relatively new player and am definitely still learning. And many of us, like CJ is simply trying to cut down on the learning curve. My worry with this system is that I would try it out, it works, and then i get screwed later on down the road from having too much of a "one man army" shot arsenal. How well will I be able to make shots with extreme low outside after I've been shooting TOI for years? If that is your worry or fear you will not allow that to happen.
What we are talking about here is just a theory, seemingly a good one that works, but still one of many. No, it is not a theory, CJ has proven that it can, did, & does work. I just fundamentally don't agree with taking away half the cue ball for any given shot that is all. That said I will still give it a try. That's fine, but be aware that you are basing your judgement without all of information & on a limited amount of experience.
Also as far as my playing ability just so we can have it on record for the next time someone goes through my posts
Also I looked up CJ and yes he is a great player no doubt. The reason I had never heard of him is because he isn't really "on the scene" at the moment and as i said, 1 year and 4 months ago i had played maybe 10 games of pool in my life so i obviously didn't know of him from long ago. I apologized to him for being a drunken ass, and now I will always know who he is.
EDIT: Also that post of mine you put up was really about the principle of having a "robot detector" that requires something more than logic to prove you are human. Yes I was dumb and Naive and didn't know the answer, I clearly figured it out and maybe that is the point of it.. to get you to learn a little. Still don't like it from a webpage standpoint.
Best Wishes to You for your Pool Journey & Life in General,
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This is how i feel. I am going to try his system for a while because I do agree with the main philosophy behind it. Simplify your game. I already know that I try and do too much with the cue ball a lot of times. I feel like this has been a good thing for me however since I've been on a pretty steep learning curve since i started playing and my philosphy has been, try everything. Now at this point I DO need to start being more consistent and perhaps CJ's method will help with that.
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