Touch of Center
- Thread starter TSW
- Start date
Roflmao they must have some really strong shit out there!
Heres a starter list to get you going on players that are great using mostly center ball
http://www.worldsnooker.com/page/PlayersRanking
This is funny, it's like an 18 handicap golfer trying to sell the pros on the idea of hitting all their shots straight so they can "aim" at the center of the fairway and hit the center of the ball to do it (with no spin or deflection).
This is imprudent, it's much better to favor one side (of pocket or fairway/green), and force the ball to go towards the "heart" of your zone (with the target being the center), creating, then increasing your margin of error substantially. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I've never really understood this golf analogy to pool. I've read a dozen or so golf books - on putting - which I believe is analogous to pool. None of them talk about moving the ball to the left or the right. They putt a straight line accounting for any break in the green. No one I know of curves a putt like they do a driver or an iron - which I don't believe is analogous to pool. They don't favor a side of the pocket when they putt. They putt straight to a target.
Ok great. So answer me this, since you and the rest of the billiard instruction world preaches center ball why is it that people haven't gotten great by focusing on center ball. Let's be real and admit that nearly everyone who calls themselves an instructor and nearly every book written espouses the idea that the shooter should stay at center ball as much as possible and yet people still don't advance?
And then along comes CJ with a new method (new to the "public") that NO ONE has ever put into print or on video that I know of and people are trying it and reporting improvements in their performance.
I think it's not just a placebo effect, nor just because people are focusing more, I think that it's because CJ's method works as he says it does for the reasons he says it does.
Of course you can continue to say that it's just center ball in a shiny new package but it's my opinion that this is not right and implying that this is all it is is also not right.
Anyway, I have more important things to do. CJ is fully capable of handling it and the proof is in the people who try it anyway. Knock all you want to but at the end of the day it's CJ Wiley who was on ESPN and not you. Because of that there are going to be plenty who will try his methods and then they will report on the effectiveness of them.
You guys have fun battling it out. I am having fun running racks using my CTE with a touch of TOI.
You are kidding about that first question, right?? Surely you can't be serious.
Ok great. So answer me this, since you and the rest of the billiard instruction world preaches center ball why is it that people haven't gotten great by focusing on center ball. Let's be real and admit that nearly everyone who calls themselves an instructor and nearly every book written espouses the idea that the shooter should stay at center ball as much as possible and yet people still don't advance?
And then along comes CJ with a new method (new to the "public") that NO ONE has ever put into print or on video that I know of and people are trying it and reporting improvements in their performance.
You guys have fun battling it out. I am having fun running racks using my CTE with a touch of TOI.
I'm not sure you understand what CJ is teaching. To be honest I think a lot of you don't get it. Although I think the majority have gone overboard with TOI, it does have value and a place in the game. but it's not a hammer, and everything isn't a nail.
I thank CJ for bringing this interesting and innovative viewpoint on TOI up. It has helped me to understand inside spin better (although he has said many time it's a touch - not inside English that I think many are using) and I do see a value with TOI.
Your response leads me to believe you don't understand that CJ is saying something very similar to other pros - use spin/English very sparingly.
CJ is saying to stay at center ball "as much as possible" as well - albeit with a touch of inside.
Maybe not. But I think you have misunderstood my points. I have not said at all that one should NOT stay at or near center ball. In fact well before CJ got here I said many times that staying close to centerball is best and that I have even given it out as a spot that I will play with no side spin, just the vertical axis.
However I did buy the video and have studied it, just not committed to playing with it for three weeks as CJ advocates to make it an ingrained part of my game.
Yes, CJ IS saying stay at center ball with a tiny touch of inside.
The MAJOR difference is that CJ is saying by favoring the inside you create a bigger pocket AND if you happen to be off then you are either off either slightly more to the inside OR at centerball. Whereas if you focus on centerball then you can be off to either side.
Then again I am perfectly willing to be corrected since as I said I haven't immersed myself into it enough to proclaim expertise.
To be honest I haven't immersed myself into TOI either. I like to tinker and learn new things and I like TOI from a few different viewpoints but I think it has a more limited role than many realize.
I'm not convinced about the bigger pocket theory either. If you're shooting at a 90 degree angle to the pocket - then it's true. However, shoot into a side pocket from a significant, but totally makable angle. You no longer have a full pocket opening to shoot into. In fact it's much closer to a single balls width. There is no three part pocket in this condition. There is a limited pocket and if you don't practice shooting to a target you're going to have trouble with this shot.
The same is true for a blocked pocket (from another ball).
The same is true, but to a lesser extent, for a corner pocket when shot down or near the rail. The pocket opening is effectively reduced in size.
For those that start to shoot for a zone instead of a target, I don't know how well they will do with these conditions. Perhaps they are less common with 9-ball so it won't matter. With 8-ball, one pocket, and straight pool, blocked pockets and angled shots occur all the time. It's better learn to shoot to a target instead of just to the center of the pocket (or a zone).
Actually I've watched on golf channel, and also read in golf putting tips to error on a particular zone of the putter for left or right breaking putts. For a right to left breaking putt, I have heard and read some instructors tell you to error ever so slightly to the toe of the putter. Obviously the goal is to hit the exact center of the putter face, but we all know that even a pro has a grouping to the left and right of center. Anyway, for that right to left breaking putt if you happen to error slightly on the toe side, the ball will start slightly to the right of your intended line, but they say it still gives the putt a greater chance of going in the cup since you are starting on a higher line the putt has a better chance of staying above the hole. If the putt falls bellow the cup you have zero chance of making the putt. Same for the left to right breaking putt. If you error slightly on the heel, the putt starts slightly to the left of the intended line, but will still have a better chance at staying above the cup. The reason I heard and read that some instructors teach this is because if you attempt to hit a right to left putt exactly in the center of the putter face but hit it slightly on the toe side, the ball will start to the inside of your intended putting line and have a greater chance of falling below the cup, thus having zero chance at making it. Erroring the putt on the high side of the putting line gives the putt a chance to go in on the high side, middle, or low side of the cup.
Now obviously there will be golf instructors that may not agree with that and don't teach that, but that method has helped my putting so I do follow that heel or toe zone method myself. For straight putts they say hit center of the face. Now, you are not hitting a putt far out on the heel or toe, but you are addressing the putt in a way that if you miss hit slightly on the heel side of the putter face for a right to left putt, you hopefully hit center of the putter. I won't post any references or links. I googled it and found references to this method so anyone can google it themselves.
I actually spent all night with touch of inside... I will call it a refresher.. I went back to the TOI patterns I used to play and found the sweet spot on my cue that allowed me to pivot out of TOI into what I had to have when I missed my speed to get back into line.....
Thank you CJ is about all I would like to say at this point...
I apologize for the interruption and you my return to your regularly scheduled program of TOI technique reviews made by the rainmen of AZ...
Shame they are wearing their Kmart underwear on their heads for most of these threads....
Chris
Thank you CJ is about all I would like to say at this point...
I apologize for the interruption and you my return to your regularly scheduled program of TOI technique reviews made by the rainmen of AZ...
Shame they are wearing their Kmart underwear on their heads for most of these threads....
Chris
interesting. I've never heard this before. I actually don't golf anymore. I read putting books for insight into pool and there is some very good info in these books.
Like I've said I've read more than a dozen putting books by some very highly regarded instructors and have never heard any of them talk about putting to a zone. In fact several make a point of putting to a very specific target point such as a blade of grass (Bob Rotella) as opposed to the cup.
none of them seemed to talk about zones on the putter face itself but that seems plausible.
The way I understand it is you are still aiming your target putting line to the center of th cup. Just that it is death to fall below the cup since the ball can't curve back up the hill. If you hit slightly on the toe of the putter on a right to left, it starts slightly high of your intended line, but has a chance to fall into the top side of the cup. When you hit slightly on the heel or toe, just like on the regular clubs, you loose a little energy, so even if your line is slightly high, it has a chance to die into the cup. The terms or names that people describe could be different but too me that is just naming semantics. The idea is still to create a larger margin of error.
Now the term zone is just how one article I read described it. Others may say just favor the heel or toe slightly. Others may dismiss the theory all together.
To me the last line is exactly the opposite of what CJ is saying. He is saying that from his professional perspective - the one where he had to face Mizerak, Strickland, Efren, Sigel and so on, it's better to shoot to a zone and effectively make the pocket bigger by favoring a margin of error to one side only.
I am only guessing that you are an amateur player. I am as well. I would consider myself to be a decent player but nowhere near pro level. So my perspective is ONLY from an amateur viewpoint. I can say what I think is the best way to play only from my own experience and my own "career" so to speak in pool.
When I took lessons from Rafael Martinez, Jose Parica, Buddy Hall, etc... I didn't argue with them because they were giving me techniques from their perspective as pros.
The hammer/nail is actually a good way to express it. There are hundreds of types of nails and dozens of hammers and the good carpenter knows which hammer is best for which nail but he can make almost any hammer work for almost any nail because of his experience. The layman often has no experience in carpentry and does not know what hammer is best for what job nor how to adjust when they don't have the right hammer or nails.
So when I have a job to do that involves carpentry the first thing I do now is go to YouTube and Google to search out what the pros have to say about it. Then I look for any other information such as if anyone discovered any extra tips as often happens when more people are exposed to the pro methods.
Of course you are going to have to know how to adjust to conditions when there is only a narrow space. I don't know where in the world anyone could have the idea that CJ or anyone else has claimed that TOI is a cure-all for all shots. I haven't seen it have you?
What I did say and I think that others have also said it is that by using the TOI way first you find that you can float the cue ball for position more. And I have also noticed that I can take routes that I used to avoid even with center ball. So the upside for me is that I still have the choice to use all the sidespin I want or try for pure center ball or also to use TOI and take other routes.
Of course in the pre-TOI era all the same position routes were there but I just didn't feel comfortable taking them because of the chance to hit slightly off center to the wrong side. Hit dead center then you're perfect, be off a little and you're not perfect. Now, for me, with TOI (as I understand and use it), I can move my cue ball a lot better with more confidence. That could also partially be because with CTE I have a great connection to the shot line as well. TOI seems to help me with the execution part of the shot.
But of course when a shot absolutely calls for something else then I know how to do that as well. CJ has said nothing different.
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How many players out there have beat top champion players without using zones?
Just imagine a putt that breaks right to left for example. Don't you think it would give you more margin of error {in the approach to the hole} to favor slightly more to the right of the hole?
The ball is going to be curving slightly to the left, so the more you start it out right (to a point of course), the more chance you have of it dropping in. If you start it out too far left you would have no chance of making it.
It's the same with driving the golf ball, it's best to set up to the right side of the fairway and ACCELERATE with a draw stroke to make it bend towards the middle of the fairway.
The key is you are putting yourself in a position that you must accelerate and the TOI does the same thing. The more you accelerate with a center ball the more it will deflect if hit off center, and the more chance you have of missing - using TOI you will be more accurate the more you accelerate. However, this isn't the strongest part of the TOI Technique, creating angles by using your tip is what's most powerful.
You can make any shot on the table simply by aligning to the center or edge of the object ball and changing your tip target to accommodate the desired angle. This will turn you into a deadly shot-maker, it did me. It's not that I"m better at making long shots, It's that distance doesn't effect me because I"m always targeting the cue ball (the object ball reflects the contact I make on the cue ball, nothing more, nothing less).
On the other hand with TOI if you over accelerate you know it's going to over cut slightly. With center it may over cut, and it may under cut, I've never had the luxury of guessing.
If I make a mistake against a Efren, Archer, Strickland, Morris, or Sigel they punish me or anyone else. Under pressure we all tend to be tentative, with the TOI Technique it's not an option, this was my secret to playing for the BIG MONEY. My track record is will known in this regard, I'm simply telling you what I did to achieve this level of performance.
I'm sure the "center ball/no zone" players have many stories of beating all of these guys gambling and/or in tournaments. Maybe they will share some of them, inquiring minds would like to know. How many players out there have beat top champion players without using ball pocketing or position zones? Anyone.....? 'The Game is the Teacher'
Just imagine a putt that breaks right to left for example. Don't you think it would give you more margin of error {in the approach to the hole} to favor slightly more to the right of the hole?
The ball is going to be curving slightly to the left, so the more you start it out right (to a point of course), the more chance you have of it dropping in. If you start it out too far left you would have no chance of making it.
It's the same with driving the golf ball, it's best to set up to the right side of the fairway and ACCELERATE with a draw stroke to make it bend towards the middle of the fairway.
The key is you are putting yourself in a position that you must accelerate and the TOI does the same thing. The more you accelerate with a center ball the more it will deflect if hit off center, and the more chance you have of missing - using TOI you will be more accurate the more you accelerate. However, this isn't the strongest part of the TOI Technique, creating angles by using your tip is what's most powerful.
You can make any shot on the table simply by aligning to the center or edge of the object ball and changing your tip target to accommodate the desired angle. This will turn you into a deadly shot-maker, it did me. It's not that I"m better at making long shots, It's that distance doesn't effect me because I"m always targeting the cue ball (the object ball reflects the contact I make on the cue ball, nothing more, nothing less).
On the other hand with TOI if you over accelerate you know it's going to over cut slightly. With center it may over cut, and it may under cut, I've never had the luxury of guessing.
If I make a mistake against a Efren, Archer, Strickland, Morris, or Sigel they punish me or anyone else. Under pressure we all tend to be tentative, with the TOI Technique it's not an option, this was my secret to playing for the BIG MONEY. My track record is will known in this regard, I'm simply telling you what I did to achieve this level of performance.
I'm sure the "center ball/no zone" players have many stories of beating all of these guys gambling and/or in tournaments. Maybe they will share some of them, inquiring minds would like to know. How many players out there have beat top champion players without using ball pocketing or position zones? Anyone.....? 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Ok great. So answer me this, since you and the rest of the billiard instruction world preaches center ball why is it that people haven't gotten great by focusing on center ball. Let's be real and admit that nearly everyone who calls themselves an instructor and nearly every book written espouses the idea that the shooter should stay at center ball as much as possible and yet people still don't advance?
And then along comes CJ with a new method (new to the "public") that NO ONE has ever put into print or on video that I know of and people are trying it and reporting improvements in their performance.
I think it's not just a placebo effect, nor just because people are focusing more, I think that it's because CJ's method works as he says it does for the reasons he says it does.
Of course you can continue to say that it's just center ball in a shiny new package but it's my opinion that this is not right and implying that this is all it is is also not right.
Anyway, I have more important things to do. CJ is fully capable of handling it and the proof is in the people who try it anyway. Knock all you want to but at the end of the day it's CJ Wiley who was on ESPN and not you. Because of that there are going to be plenty who will try his methods and then they will report on the effectiveness of them.
You guys have fun battling it out. I am having fun running racks using my CTE with a touch of TOI.
Tried to green rep you but can't yet, so....good post. :thumbup:
Please 'quote' just one(1) time where CJ has posted as you say, 'to stay at center ball "as much as possible".
How can it be at CENTER BALL with a TOI? That would NOT be CENTER BALL. No real offense, but are 'you people' serious? True center ball has no deflection/squirt & no spin.
Now the question is, can only Mr. Neil hit center ball with a FIRM stroke 10 out of 10 times.
The irony is "logic will get you broke" in pool, and many other things in life.
If the pocket was the same size as the ball we wouldn't be talking about TOI because there would be no way to increase the margin of error. It would be just "matter of fact," however in pool the pocket is twice as big as the ball so there's an opportunity to maximize this by controlling your approach angle using deflection.
You are making sense in this post, and I say again, you still must experience TOI to truly understand it. The reason this is so difficult for many to understand is it goes against logic. The irony is "logic will get you broke" {sometimes}in pool, and many other things in life.
I was very "large scale" in the night club business in Dallas with a private club of over 630,000 members. I learned first hand that what seemed logical and what worked with the marketing and advertising were two different things. We want to think we understand experience before experience happens, and this is a common fallacy.
I understand why those of you want to hang on to the idea that hitting the center of the ball is better. Truthfully I can argue your case better than you are, however, I still can't win {the argument} because it doesn't transfer into reality ..... and I know it doesn't through many experiences.
As humans we perform better with a designated margin of error that we produce and makes us accelerate. I can think of examples in baseball, basketball, tennis, skeet shooting, archery, etc. These aren't literal comparisons, just the same common theme of using spin, speed, or deflection to create a perceived margin or error, or zone. There is always a way to do this IF the ball/bullet/dart is smaller than the target. 'The Game is the Teacher'
If the pocket was the same size as the ball we wouldn't be talking about TOI because there would be no way to increase the margin of error. It would be just "matter of fact," however in pool the pocket is twice as big as the ball so there's an opportunity to maximize this by controlling your approach angle using deflection.
You are making sense in this post, and I say again, you still must experience TOI to truly understand it. The reason this is so difficult for many to understand is it goes against logic. The irony is "logic will get you broke" {sometimes}in pool, and many other things in life.
I was very "large scale" in the night club business in Dallas with a private club of over 630,000 members. I learned first hand that what seemed logical and what worked with the marketing and advertising were two different things. We want to think we understand experience before experience happens, and this is a common fallacy.
I understand why those of you want to hang on to the idea that hitting the center of the ball is better. Truthfully I can argue your case better than you are, however, I still can't win {the argument} because it doesn't transfer into reality ..... and I know it doesn't through many experiences.
As humans we perform better with a designated margin of error that we produce and makes us accelerate. I can think of examples in baseball, basketball, tennis, skeet shooting, archery, etc. These aren't literal comparisons, just the same common theme of using spin, speed, or deflection to create a perceived margin or error, or zone. There is always a way to do this IF the ball/bullet/dart is smaller than the target. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I only want to hit center ball on a straight in shot. I could if I wanted to, however
Yes, I only want to hit center ball on a straight in shot. I could if I wanted to, however, I choose to always use a Touch Of Inside to create the angle. Straight In shots don't have any angle, so there's no reason to create one.
Yes, I only want to hit center ball on a straight in shot. I could if I wanted to, however, I choose to always use a Touch Of Inside to create the angle. Straight In shots don't have any angle, so there's no reason to create one.
In addition to my PM, you can actually make a ball roll up hill (with a 'square' putter face) to the high side. However, gravity will eventually take over.
I can't green rep you either yet, but good post.