Question for CJ Wiley about TOI

justadub said:
So you don't think that CJ should be allowed in the Main Forum?
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TOI is taking over the world.:D:DI wish Earl would get on here,he told me just the opposite of CJ.I spin balls in most of the time.:confused:
I think it comes down to how you like doing it.(really)
If one does it one way and one does it another what do you choose.
I choose Earl,it just seems more of a natural way.TOI Good Earl well he's just a bad man at making balls.:wink how can you agrue whats rite.
Should I be writing about this in the aiming forum?

Could you imagine Earl on the forum.:)

Anthony
 
in competition you have to incorporate what your opponent is doing and use it

RobMan said:
CJ is a wealth of information, and I am extremely grateful for his input.

I can tell ya, I have been wroking with TOI a good bit the last month, and t has definitely clicked. Out of town right now, have not pciked up a cue in a over a week, went to a local hall and rented a Gold Crown and ordered a draft wheat beer.

Man -- on a string. Felt so good. Not just the ball potting, but the positional route play that I NEVER would have played before -- just so natural. Really works with my stroke. Even if if I under or overrun the shape, I just have sooo much more confidence.

And when I miss, yes mostly over cut, then jsut adjust for next time. If I undercut, I immediately know that I probably decelerated the stroke.

THANKS again CJ for giving back to the game!
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You're certainly welcome, the results of the "Touch" are impressive to say the least. More than anything it's bringing a lot of fun back to the Game.

I've been following your progress and I can tell you are really getting the technique. I got another letter today from a 73 year old gentleman that is playing the "best pool of his life"....that's worth more than any compensation to me, to make a positive difference in this pool world. :thumbup:

Sometimes in competition you have to incorporate what your opponent is doing and use it against them. I'm freely giving the information and answering all the questions and some people still think there's a "trick up my sleeve." Times have changed, at one point I wouldn't share this for anything because players would take it and use it against me gambling, now those same payers think it's a trick? I'm not even anyone's opponent and can safely say I will probably never compete against anyone reading this. What could the "trick" possibly be then?

That "trick" is to show and tell, as accurately as possible how I play championship pool, and share it with those that want to learn. I know this sounds very "sinister," and it's unbelievable they allow this on a pool forum. :) Talking about advanced pool techniques on a pool forum seems so...:confused:...so.....wrong somehow....I just can't figure out how? hmmm

It's a great study in human nature, I know from experience TOI will improve someone's game vastly, however, it does take "letting go" of some of the past suppositions, and for a few this is like pulling teeth. ;) 'The Game is the Dentist.....oops.....Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
 
8pack said:
TOI is taking over the world.:D:DI wish Earl would get on here,he told me just the opposite of CJ.I spin balls in most of the time.:confused:
I think it comes down to how you like doing it.(really)
If one does it one way and one does it another what do you choose.
I choose Earl,it just seems more of a natural way.TOI Good Earl well he's just a bad man at making balls.:wink how can you agrue whats rite.
Should I be writing about this in the aiming forum?

Could you imagine Earl on the forum.:)

Anthony
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Mr. Anthony,

I would love to have Earl in here. I thing he would be very entertaining, if not completely informative. I don't know how long he would last before getting banned though. He'd be telling people off right & left.

I don't thing anyone is saying one way is THE right way. CJ is just point out the advantages that he sees to TOI. The problems come up when one says that a way is wrong.

I have been spinning balls in like Earl for 46 years but TOI is certainly a valuable tool & I certainly can see how it can be a complete method to play some very very good pool.

Regards,
 
ENGLISH! said:
Mr. Anthony,

I would love to have Earl in here. I thing he would be very entertaining, if not completely informative. I don't know how long he would last before getting banned though. He'd be telling people off right & left.

I don't thing anyone is saying one way is THE right way. CJ is just point out the advantages that he sees to TOI. The problems come up when one says that a way is wrong.

I have been spinning balls in like Earl for 46 years but TOI is certainly a valuable tool & I certainly can see how it can be a complete method to play some very very good pool.

Regards,
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I think TOI is great also but i still think people are going to keep doing what works for them.For me toi every shot?He11 Know I dont play that damm Good!:wink:

You know when I spoke with Earl he seemed very normal ,he started playing it seemed like someone flip the switch.I dont understand it:confused:

It would be great to have him here.

Anthony
 
Neil said:
There's already a place for him to be- it's called "Ask a pro". Why the mods haven't put him there yet, I don't know.
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Mr. Neil,

The thing is, CJ is not sitting around waiting for general questions. He's doing what he thinks he can to foster better play & the game in general.

I think you too should have your own sub-forum or at least an ongoing thread. What do they call it a sticky?

"Ask Mr. Neil" What do you think?

Regards,
 
ENGLISH! said:
Mr. Neil,

The thing is, CJ is not sitting around waiting for general questions. He's doing what he thinks he can to foster better play & the game in general.

I think you too should have your own sub-forum or at least an ongoing thread. What do they call it a sticky?

"Ask Mr. Neil" What do you think?

Regards,
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Grow up.:rolleyes:
 
pool is like a miniature version of golf and tennis in many ways

8pack said:
I think TOI is great also but i still think people are going to keep doing what works for them.For me toi every shot?He11 Know I dont play that damm Good!:wink:

You know when I spoke with Earl he seemed very normal ,he started playing it seemed like someone flip the switch.I dont understand it:confused:

It would be great to have him here.

Anthony
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Earl is a genius when it comes to pocket billiards and I've shared many in depth conversations with him. He "real eyeses" that pool is like a miniature version of golf and tennis in many ways, so we can talk in those terms. You won't see pro golfers or tennis players that don't know how to use spin to increase margin of error through creating zoned approaches.

Earl does "throw" everything in and I "TOI" everything in (with deflection), and it's not like I haven't said this many times before. There's two different ways to do what I suggest, one is through deflection and the other through spin and deflection. I am advocating the TOI method over the spinning method on AZBILLIARDS because it accomplishes the same thing without the 6-8 hours a day of practice.

When I was the #1 Ranked Player in the World I didn't practice more than an hour or two a day. I didn't have to because when we use TOI it doesn't take near the skill and practice to spin AND deflect (throw) the balls in.

You can also play without doing either one, however, you will hit a "wall" in your progress that will be impossible to get over without understanding how zones work - and zones can only be created with spin or defection. These are the facts and I've described these techniques in detail many times on this Forum. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
 
Neil said:
There's already a place for him to be- it's called "Ask a pro". Why the mods haven't put him there yet, I don't know.
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Well to be fair, this way *my* thread, not CJ's. I titled it with a question for him. To be perfectly honest, I don't see the relevance of him being a pro with regard to where *my* thread goes. He is a person just like me who loves pool and has a lot more experience and ability. I figured that since people seem interested in the topic, and CJ seems very forthcoming with info, why not share my question with everyone? People actually care about stuff like this (specifically where threads go)? I'm not as much of an az fanatic...I pretty much only scan the main forum. Anyway I'm very happy I have any place to get the feedback of a player of CJ's caliber. That is rare. I'm focusing on that kind of cool stuff.

KMRUNOUT
 
8pack said:
I think TOI is great also but i still think people are going to keep doing what works for them.For me toi every shot?He11 Know I dont play that damm Good!:wink:

You know when I spoke with Earl he seemed very normal ,he started playing it seemed like someone flip the switch.I dont understand it:confused:

It would be great to have him here.

Anthony
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I once took a 2 hour lesson with Earl. He was great. Very nice, very informative. He was not the best at hearing my question...he would sometimes answer *his* version of my question. However, he would do a good job of criticizing what I was doing and steering me to do it like he was showing. We did a lot of kicking and safety work. I very much enjoyed it and would do it again in a heart beat. I bet he would be awesome on the forum.

KMRUNOUT
 
CJ Wiley said:
Earl is a genius when it comes to pocket billiards and I've shared many in depth conversations with him. He "real eyeses" that pool is like a miniature version of golf and tennis in many ways, so we can talk in those terms. You won't see pro golfers or tennis players that don't know how to use spin to increase margin of error through creating zoned approaches.
' www.cjwiley.com
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he is a genius, there is no dount about that. nobody can play like he can without being a genius. his top gear it perhaps the highest gear ever.
 
Can't just ignore !

The Renfro said:
I guess anyone not wanting to try it or who discounts it can just ignore any thread with TOI in the title... I have been ignoring all of the CTE and PRO One threads for months now...

Chris
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Maybe you have been to the mountain and back after meditating with the Dali Lama.

Maybe you have fasted for weeks and prayed for sustenance from the Creator.

You may have even tread where angels never dare.

All in order to ignore threads that bother you

But as for some of us, we just can't ignore these threads !!! :p
Months...wow that's pretty good. :thumbup:
 
So tonight at my BCA league, I messed around with TOI. I can easily see the ball pocketing benefit. For me, it doesn't really seem like such a great benefit because I am so used to the "shoot it in the middle of the hole" method. I spin balls in infrequently. I never really "deflect" them in. I use a LD shaft, and have sort of built my own methods for feeling my hand and the cue and my eyes, and getting them aligned to make the shot look right. When I do this it goes in. However, I could see how TOI could work great if you committed to it.

My one biggest difficulty is this: I spend lots of practice trying to hit the cueball *exactly* where I want with my tip. So I was having trouble determining where to strike the ball to produce only a *touch* of inside. I basically kept on hitting balls with inside english. If I use a small enough amount of english to be just a touch, then I experience almost no deflection, so aiming anywhere other than the center of the pocket seems awkward (and seems to produce many misses). I get the impression that TOI works best when using standard maple shafts. When I aim for the outside of the pocket, I only hit the center if I use inside english, not just a touch.

Anyone have any thoughts or advice? Anyone? Beuler? Wiley? Haha eager for feedback.

KMRUNOUT
 
Fatboy said:
he is a genius, there is no dount about that. nobody can play like he can without being a genius. his top gear it perhaps the highest gear ever.
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Agree completely. The highest gear I've ever seen from Earl is for sure the highest I've ever seen from anyone. No one even comes close to his major tournament victories in 9 ball (WPC and US Opens).

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
So tonight at my BCA league, I messed around with TOI. I can easily see the ball pocketing benefit. For me, it doesn't really seem like such a great benefit because I am so used to the "shoot it in the middle of the hole" method. I spin balls in infrequently. I never really "deflect" them in. I use a LD shaft, and have sort of built my own methods for feeling my hand and the cue and my eyes, and getting them aligned to make the shot look right. When I do this it goes in. However, I could see how TOI could work great if you committed to it.

My one biggest difficulty is this: I spend lots of practice trying to hit the cueball *exactly* where I want with my tip. So I was having trouble determining where to strike the ball to produce only a *touch* of inside. I basically kept on hitting balls with inside english. If I use a small enough amount of english to be just a touch, then I experience almost no deflection, so aiming anywhere other than the center of the pocket seems awkward (and seems to produce many misses). I get the impression that TOI works best when using standard maple shafts. When I aim for the outside of the pocket, I only hit the center if I use inside english, not just a touch.

Anyone have any thoughts or advice? Anyone? Beuler? Wiley? Haha eager for feedback.

KMRUNOUT
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I have alway been a spinner, throwing balls & cheating pockets. The problems you mention with TOI, I had too. You have to hit it firm, you can't hit the way you normally would for spin. I too am using LD shafts. It can work with them. The thing is you might not be able to just use CJ's 2 target points. It is hard to get a 1/2 ball squirt for some shots with out hitting very hard.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
So tonight at my BCA league, I messed around with TOI. I can easily see the ball pocketing benefit. For me, it doesn't really seem like such a great benefit because I am so used to the "shoot it in the middle of the hole" method. I spin balls in infrequently. I never really "deflect" them in. I use a LD shaft, and have sort of built my own methods for feeling my hand and the cue and my eyes, and getting them aligned to make the shot look right. When I do this it goes in. However, I could see how TOI could work great if you committed to it.

My one biggest difficulty is this: I spend lots of practice trying to hit the cueball *exactly* where I want with my tip. So I was having trouble determining where to strike the ball to produce only a *touch* of inside. I basically kept on hitting balls with inside english. If I use a small enough amount of english to be just a touch, then I experience almost no deflection, so aiming anywhere other than the center of the pocket seems awkward (and seems to produce many misses). I get the impression that TOI works best when using standard maple shafts. When I aim for the outside of the pocket, I only hit the center if I use inside english, not just a touch.

Anyone have any thoughts or advice? Anyone? Beuler? Wiley? Haha eager for feedback.

KMRUNOUT
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The only thing I have for you is that when I tool a lesson from Parica he showed me a shot where I had to feather the ball. He did it then I butchered it and he did it again and I butchered it again. After a couple more minutes of this I finally said, "Jose, I understand what you want me to do, I see you doing it, but I can't do it." He just laughed and said keep trying and we moved on to something else.

Touch is something that takes a long time to really develop. I have seen it with Buddy Hall, with Rafael Martinez and several other pros with whom I have played or taken lessons.

I also am heavy handed when it comes to the "touch" part of TOI.
 
focusing back on the cue ball is going to be the key that unlocks the solution.......

Fatboy said:
he is a genius, there is no dount about that. nobody can play like he can without being a genius. his top gear it perhaps the highest gear ever.
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And you told me I had the "highest gear ever":wink:

I agree, Earl is incredible when he's "on" - when people want to know who is the "best of all time" it really depends on the day, time and phase they are going through.

Tiger Woods was the greatest golfer and it appeared like he would surpass Jack Nicklaus' records in a timely fashion.....then things changed. "Things" are always changing and that's why we always have to be able and willing to adapt. Even when I"ve been in that "Dead Stroke" and everything's flowing I still have to watch for changes that may be occurring.

This does become subconscious, however, it doesn't go away. If I don't hit the pocket exactly like I want, there must be an adjustment on the very next shot. This may be something with my body, but for the most part it's going to be how I'm hitting the cue ball.

One thing that will always be constant is the Game will reflect how I'm contacting the cue ball. That's really how I can tell if someone is at an advanced level or not. If they insist on talking about their arm, shoulder, elbow, pendulum, eyes, etc. I know they are "trying to find their game" - focusing back on the cue ball is going to be the key that unlocks the solution to get their Game back on track. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
 
Neil said:
There's already a place for him to be- it's called "Ask a pro". Why the mods haven't put him there yet, I don't know.
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I dare say you might be a little bit jealous of CJ. ;)

All you need to do is invent a new aiming system and come up with a pithy expression like "The Game is the Teacher" and you'll be ready to have your own forum. :bow-down:
 
CJ Wiley said:
[/B]

And you told me I had the "highest gear ever":wink:

I agree, Earl is incredible when he's "on" - when people want to know who is the "best of all time" it really depends on the day, time and phase they are going through.

Tiger Woods was the greatest golfer and it appeared like he would surpass Jack Nicklaus' records in a timely fashion.....then things changed. "Things" are always changing and that's why we always have to be able and willing to adapt. Even when I"ve been in that "Dead Stroke" and everything's flowing I still have to watch for changes that may be occurring.

This does become subconscious, however, it doesn't go away. If I don't hit the pocket exactly like I want, there must be an adjustment on the very next shot. This may be something with my body, but for the most part it's going to be how I'm hitting the cue ball.

One thing that will always be constant is the Game will reflect how I'm contacting the cue ball. That's really how I can tell if someone is at an advanced level or not. If they insist on talking about their arm, shoulder, elbow, pendulum, eyes, etc. I know they are "trying to find their game" - focusing back on the cue ball is going to be the key that unlocks the solution to get their Game back on track. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
Click to expand...

I know just what you mean. When I am playing good, I always find myself saying "I'm hitting the ball good". Meaning, I'm striking the cue ball the way I want to. When I'm doing that, the aim, stance, etc. becomes almost meaningless.

KMRUNOUT
 
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