Are spot shots Easier to make using english? How do you hit the cueball when position doesnt matter but potting ob is vital.
spot shot
- Thread starter obclassicut
- Start date
Here's a trick to making a spot shot, provided you have a reasonably straight stroke.
Lay your cue (red line) over the center of the pocket going up to the 2nd diamond on the long rail. Where your tip ends up is where you want to put the CB (as shown in the picture). This sets up the CB-OB relationship as a half-ball hit.
Now get down on the shot using center cue ball, and aim your tip at the edge of the OB. Then just shoot the shot.
I've made over 10 spot shots in a row using this method. Really simple.
Lay your cue (red line) over the center of the pocket going up to the 2nd diamond on the long rail. Where your tip ends up is where you want to put the CB (as shown in the picture). This sets up the CB-OB relationship as a half-ball hit.
Now get down on the shot using center cue ball, and aim your tip at the edge of the OB. Then just shoot the shot.
I've made over 10 spot shots in a row using this method. Really simple.
Cue ball accuracy
Does cue ball accuracy increase or decrease when using centerball versus english? ( hard speed)
Does cue ball accuracy increase or decrease when using centerball versus english? ( hard speed)
which is more consistently accurate when using a hard stroke? Aiming using deflection ( english ) OR Aiming using centerball?
Proof
Is there anyway to prove which way is more accurate?
Is there anyway to prove which way is more accurate?
Why do you want to use a hard stroke? Did you try the trick I mentioned? You'd be surprised at how easy the spot shot is using that method.
I'm no instructor, nor am I an expert on pool physics. However, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that center ball is always more accurate regardless of the speed of the stroke. I'm sure someone else can post proof to prove or disprove my statement.
Can you be as accurate when using english? I don't see why not, but it'll take plenty of practice.
I can make spot shots without issues. Just trying to get some imformation that is pertinent to me.
Can you be more accurate when using english? (of course i mean with a lot of practice.. ) I said shooting hard because then you dont have to account for swerve as well. Im starting to think that when shooting centerball small errors dont matter much because swerve and squirt cancel each other out. ( depending on conditions)
Do you know of any new factors that become involved when using side spin? That is, factors which can change whether you make the ball or not which are not present on spot shots without side spin.
Here are my $0.02 thoughts.
Once you have learned to shoot with english it does not take any more practice, perhaps less since your tip placement is not quite as vital but your speed is. It is a feel thing not a brain calculation thing.
You said hitting hard. Hitting hard makes using 'english'/spin virtually useless. You will get virtually no effect from the spin. When hitting hard you are bringing the squirt into play with virtually no chance of the swerve coming into play.
When hitting off center for the purpose of using spin to affect the shot it must be done in proportion, spin to speed to get the most benefit. The squirt, swerve, & spin induced throw are all parts to the puzzle, but it is not a difficult puzzle if one just keeps the brain out of the equation and allows one's feel to execute the shot. I trust my 'mind' more than I trust my brain.(opening for a slur)
CJ hits off center to utilize the deflection so that the swerve & spin induced throw are all but taken out of the picture. That is why he advocates a firm grip & stroke. If not hit firm enough the plan is out of the window because swerve & spin will come into play.
To answer your question, I personally would shoot those spot shots with english rather than trying to hit center ball 9 out of 10 times (If allowed, I would move the cue ball more to the rail to make it a more full hit & so I can bridge on the rail.). I might even hit with both outside & inside as to not make it the same shot for all 100 shots. For that proposition, strategy would come into play. (Actually that is what I would have done in the past. Now I might shoot them with TOI.)
If it's just one shot, I'm hitting it with a slow medium speed at 1:00 or 1:15. Sorry 11:00 or 10:45 as Bieber has it diagramed. I know I will hit with the type english I want. By knowing that, I can target one side of the pocket & throw the ball in with the spn. If I don't get enough spin throw it goes in the target side, if I get it right it goes in the center, if I get more than planned it goes in the other side.Trying to hit center, every human being will be off to one side or the other for a certain percentage of the shots & they will not know to what side they will be off. Can the ball still go in on this shot? Yes. Can it go in if both hit & aim are off in addition combination? It probably would be a mis.
With the english plan I can even be off in aim so the ball would mis the pocket point but the spin induced throw could send it inside the point & still pocket the ball.
I guess that is more like a nickels worth. This is what I would do. It is not meant to tell you or anyone else what they should do.:wink:
Regards,
Once you have learned to shoot with english it does not take any more practice, perhaps less since your tip placement is not quite as vital but your speed is. It is a feel thing not a brain calculation thing.
You said hitting hard. Hitting hard makes using 'english'/spin virtually useless. You will get virtually no effect from the spin. When hitting hard you are bringing the squirt into play with virtually no chance of the swerve coming into play.
When hitting off center for the purpose of using spin to affect the shot it must be done in proportion, spin to speed to get the most benefit. The squirt, swerve, & spin induced throw are all parts to the puzzle, but it is not a difficult puzzle if one just keeps the brain out of the equation and allows one's feel to execute the shot. I trust my 'mind' more than I trust my brain.(opening for a slur)
CJ hits off center to utilize the deflection so that the swerve & spin induced throw are all but taken out of the picture. That is why he advocates a firm grip & stroke. If not hit firm enough the plan is out of the window because swerve & spin will come into play.
To answer your question, I personally would shoot those spot shots with english rather than trying to hit center ball 9 out of 10 times (If allowed, I would move the cue ball more to the rail to make it a more full hit & so I can bridge on the rail.). I might even hit with both outside & inside as to not make it the same shot for all 100 shots. For that proposition, strategy would come into play. (Actually that is what I would have done in the past. Now I might shoot them with TOI.)
If it's just one shot, I'm hitting it with a slow medium speed at 1:00 or 1:15. Sorry 11:00 or 10:45 as Bieber has it diagramed. I know I will hit with the type english I want. By knowing that, I can target one side of the pocket & throw the ball in with the spn. If I don't get enough spin throw it goes in the target side, if I get it right it goes in the center, if I get more than planned it goes in the other side.Trying to hit center, every human being will be off to one side or the other for a certain percentage of the shots & they will not know to what side they will be off. Can the ball still go in on this shot? Yes. Can it go in if both hit & aim are off in addition combination? It probably would be a mis.
With the english plan I can even be off in aim so the ball would mis the pocket point but the spin induced throw could send it inside the point & still pocket the ball.
I guess that is more like a nickels worth. This is what I would do. It is not meant to tell you or anyone else what they should do.:wink:
Regards,
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obclassicut...The proof is in the shot itself. Almost any shot, where the distance between the OB & CB is greater than 2 diamonds, the shot played on the verticle axis will be much more accurate and repeatable, than the same shot played with varying degrees of sidespin. The reasoning is also simple...playing with sidespin, especially when adding speed and distance the shot, requires some kind of adjustment to compensate for CB squirt. Hope this helps. 
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Yes Mr. Jewett, i do. I'm just trying to figure out if aiming using deflection is the way to go the majority of the time. Basically im starting to wonder if i could be more accurate deflecting the ball on purpose instead of using centerball. (This is just for potting accuracy, not worried about cue control.) could one be more accurate than the other with practice?
without varying degrees of sidespin? like if you practiced squiting it by moving exactly a half inch to the left or right of the vertical axis so it was predictable. so many people are jumping on cj's bandwagon and im certainly not going to be one of them until i get my facts straight. he is pretty convincing about some things and plays better than me right now so its hard to ignoreobclassicut...The proof is in the shot itself. Almost any shot, where the distance between the OB & CB is greater than 2 diamonds, the shot played on the verticle axis will be much more accurate and repeatable, than the same shot played with varying degrees of sidespin. The reasoning is also simple...playing with sidespin, especially when adding speed and distance the shot, requires some kind of adjustment to compensate for CB squirt. Hope this helps.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I would still argue that vertical axis shooting will be more accurate and repeatable, regardless of what some pro says. That's the opinion of an experienced professional instructor.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Thank you Mr. Lee. I have more "intriguing" questions but i have to get some coffee in me and start that gosh darn old wood stove in my man cave. Thank you for responding again
Now that is a different question. If you will note in my earlier post I said that shooting it with english was probably my old way & that I now might shoot it with TOI.
CJ has said, & I certainly see what he means, that the distance between the balls means nothing to him no matter how thin the cut. That is because he is not 'aiming' at a point on the OB. Once aligned to either the center or edge of the OB, he will not focus on the OB again, he will take one more look in a very general way & then shoot with TOI.
You are correct that many including myself are making long, even very thin cut shots with more ease than ever.
You have to understand the principles & then try it for yourself & make your own determination. I doubt that you will get a definitive answer regarding TOI here.
Regards & Good Luck with It,
english
in a post above you said this
If it's just one shot, I'm hitting it with a slow medium speed at 1:00 or 1:15. Sorry 11:00 or 10:45 as Biev as it diagramed. I know I will hit with the type english I want
when you switched to 11oclock isnt that a touch of outside???
it seems you are becoming or have become a beleiver of TOI
so wouldnt you prefer to use 1 oclock as you started to say???
for the record i also beleive vertical axis is more precise becaus you dont have to allow for as many variables
but i am not an instructor
so its just my opinion
if you hit a million balls you could get accurate shooting behind your back/one handed/even masse it in
in a post above you said this
If it's just one shot, I'm hitting it with a slow medium speed at 1:00 or 1:15. Sorry 11:00 or 10:45 as Biev as it diagramed. I know I will hit with the type english I want
when you switched to 11oclock isnt that a touch of outside???
it seems you are becoming or have become a beleiver of TOI
so wouldnt you prefer to use 1 oclock as you started to say???
for the record i also beleive vertical axis is more precise becaus you dont have to allow for as many variables
but i am not an instructor
so its just my opinion
if you hit a million balls you could get accurate shooting behind your back/one handed/even masse it in
If I had my choice before TOI, I would prefer to shoot from the right side of the table & cut into the left corner pocket. I would use 1:00 or 1:15 & that depends on 'feel'. That is outside english. But if I was shooting for the 90 out of 100 proposition I would probably mix in shooting with 11:00 or 10:45 with inside english to break the monotiny. Those would all be with the intention of employing spin.
My change in description in the other post was because I recalled that the diagram had the cue ball on the left side cutting to the right. My intention was to still relay where for outside english.
If I were to shoot the shot with TOI, I would aim the same as for outside english, to the full hit side of the pocket just inside the short rail point & hit it just off center to the INside of the cue ball & I would hit it more firmly & utilize the squirt alone with no swerve & no effective spin to add a bit of cut to the shot. If I mis hit & hit the center of the cue ball the ball should go into the full hit side of the pocket as aimed just inside the short rail point. If I hit the cue ball as intended & squirt the ball as intended the OB should go into the center of the pocket, if I mis hit more to the INside than intended & the ball squirts more than intended the OB should go into the thin cut side of the pocket.
It is all about increasing the margin for error & NOT striving for the perfection that no human being can accomplish. Each one of us be at choose. It is about the results not the means. If anyone wants to call it a crutch, call it what you want. I call it an intelligent decision based on cause & effect.
Some want to make squirt/deflection & swerve an enemy & try to eliminate them through attempting perfection of which no human being is capable.
Others like myself have chosen to make them a friendly ally that can be utilized to increase the margin for error.
Edit: Another point to consider is that as the distance between the two(2) balls increases so does the stroke required unless one wants to slow roll the ball. That being the case the longer, firmer, quicker or however one wants to describe the increase in stroke requirement there is more of a likelihood of some stroke error. Perfection is less likely. Just more food for thought.
I hope that answers your question.
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Sorry, my question was not specific enough. Which new factors are you aware of that come into the shot when you add side spin? (What I'm trying to do here is see if you already know the answer to your original question.)
ob,
I'd like to point out that CJ Wiley is not just 'some pro'. CJ Wiley is a Former World Champion & certainly one of, if not the best, money players ever.
CJ Wiley has played the best players from before & of his generation & he has beaten them.
Mr. Wiley has also produced several instructional DVDs.
If you can, I would suggest that you watch the match between CJ & Steve Mizerak in CJ's first U.S. Tournament. They both played near flawlessly & CJ won.
CJ Wiley knows how to play at the highest level & he is relaying how he did it.
Again, CJ Wiley is not just 'some pro'. CJ Wiley is a Professional Player & a past World Champion.
If I can be of any further assistance, just ask.
Regards,
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