Pendulum Stroke - Elbow Drop

[Counterspell]

It seems like such a simple thing to fix, but it is not. At least for me.

Any Tips on how to fix eblow drop? The strange thing is, if I just take practice strokes with no ball, my elbow does not drop. Although practicing with no ball does not seem to help when there is a cue ball. I suppose it is a mental thing, but years of dropping your elbow on the stroke seems to be a very hard habit to break.

 

[Bob Jewett]

It seems like such a simple thing to fix, but it is not. At least for me.

Any Tips on how to fix eblow drop? The strange thing is, if I just take practice strokes with no ball, my elbow does not drop. Although practicing with no ball does not seem to help when there is a cue ball. I suppose it is a mental thing, but years of dropping your elbow on the stroke seems to be a very hard habit to break.

Try the drills in the March column in the file: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/cols2010r.pdf
The hard part, as you noticed, is transferring the motion from an isolated drill into actual ball-pocketing. One thing that may help you is to watch the ferrule of your cue as you make the transition.

For more on elbow motion, see http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-02.pdf and http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-03.pdf

 

[BeiberLvr]

Try the drills in the March column in the file: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/cols2010r.pdf
The hard part, as you noticed, is transferring the motion from an isolated drill into actual ball-pocketing. One thing that may help you is to watch the ferrule of your cue as you make the transition.

For more on elbow motion, see http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-02.pdf and http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-03.pdf

Bob,

I used this screen shot of Dr. Dave (hope he doesn't mind) to ask a question.

The red lines represent the back and forward motion of the arm during the stroke. The distance from end of backswing to stationary position is the same distance as stationary position to finish.

Is that necessary? It seems like it could create some consistency, but I'm not sure of the best way to practice it.

 

[Neil]

Bob,

I used this screen shot of Dr. Dave (hope he doesn't mind) to ask a question.

The red lines represent the back and forward motion of the arm during the stroke. The distance from end of backswing to stationary position is the same distance as stationary position to finish.

Is that necessary? It seems like it could create some consistency, but I'm not sure of the best way to practice it.

If he brings it back any farther the cue will go past his bridge hand, not a good thing to do. The going forward, the finish, is nothing more than a matter of not actually stopping the cue, but letting the cue and the arm just go forward to it's natural finish position. How far that actually is depends on the persons body build. You don't want to actually stop the cue, if you do, you run the risk of slowing your cue down before contact with the cb, not a good thing to do.

With that picture of Dr. Dave, it just happens to be about equal distances. That won't be true with everyone. The equal distance is not a part of what you are striving for, it just happens to be what it is in his case.

 

[ctyhntr]

I was taught that the elbow drop is a symptom for diagnosing the pendulum stroke. It means you're engaging the shoulder (a socket joint) in addition to the elbow (hinge joint). Does the drop happen before or after hitting the cue ball? If it happens afterward the cue ball has been launched, there may be no need to fix it.

 

[Scott Lee]

ctyhntr...That is correct! Good for you for remembering. While dropping the elbow after contact will have no effect on accurate aiming and contact, it makes the process more difficult to repeat, as the cuetip is finishing in different places for different speed shots. That's tough to make repeatable...although it can be done. The same start and finish positions make for easy repeatability...especially under pressure! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I was taught that the elbow drop is a symptom for diagnosing the pendulum stroke. It means you're engaging the shoulder (a socket joint) in addition to the elbow (hinge joint). Does the drop happen before or after hitting the cue ball? If it happens afterward the cue ball has been launched, there may be no need to fix it.

 

[scottjen26]

As Scott said, elbow drop by itself doesn't cause any harm, as long as it's AFTER contact. If it's before or at impact then it will cause inconsistency.

I know for myself, I can avoid the drop all day long when there is no ball there, just shadowing the actual stroke. But when the ball is there, no matter how smooth I try to hit the shot, it's very difficult to no drop my elbow at least a little bit. I can trick myself into not dropping a few different ways, but it takes a lot of concentration, and given the current state of my game I decided working on that would not pay off as much as working on other aspects of my game. Maybe one day I'll put more time into it, but if you are hitting the balls solid and it's not affecting your strokes then personally I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Scott

 

[FranCrimi]

While I have no intention of debating the same old thing one more time with anyone here, I just want it to be known that there are other schools of thought regarding an elbow drop prior to impact.

...And with that, I will gracefully bow out of the converstation....

 

[ENGLISH!]

Ms. Crimi,

I concur with you.

Like you, I could say more, but it is not worth the time or effort unless an individual is truely interested & has an open mind regarding it.

Best Regards,

 

[BeiberLvr]

While I have no intention of debating the same old thing one more time with anyone here, I just want it to be known that there are other schools of thought regarding an elbow drop prior to impact.

...And with that, I will gracefully bow out of the converstation....

I've always been under the impression that if dropping the elbow, doing so before contact is a big no no.

I don't want to make you repeat what you may have said in the past. So can you post a link to a video of any player dropping their elbow before contact that plays well?

I know sometimes posts can be misread, so I'll just make it clear now that I am in no way calling you out or saying you're wrong.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I don't want to make you repeat what you may have said in the past. So can you post a link to a video of any player dropping their elbow before contact that plays well? ...

I'm not Fran and I don't have a video handy, but: Mike Davis.

 

[softshot]

ok... here we go again..

I will honestly attempt to NOT piss anyone off BUT

I have a personal goal to make this the one part of azb that tells the truth to the people who ask..

there is a theory proposed by people whom I respect that the perfect pendulum is easier to learn.. I have done Mother drill 1 daily for almost 7 years.. my pendulum still gets a hitch some days.. but I keep trying..and I keep getting better at it.. I have gone from a D- to an A- in that time frame..

had I devoted all those hours to a piston based stroke I honestly believe that I would be almost exactly as skilled as I am today.

which jumping off point you choose is irrelevant.. it's the decade of work that gets you there..

there are only 2 types of people in pool those who decide to work.. and those who never get any better..

so to the OP stop choosing a diving board.. and dive.. the board won't swim you to the surface in either case

you have to do that

 

[FranCrimi]

I've always been under the impression that if dropping the elbow, doing so before contact is a big no no.

I don't want to make you repeat what you may have said in the past. So can you post a link to a video of any player dropping their elbow before contact that plays well?

I know sometimes posts can be misread, so I'll just make it clear now that I am in no way calling you out or saying you're wrong.

If you've been under a particular impression, it's probably because other people have told you that, or you read it somewhere.

The best advice I can give you is to not limit yourself to the limitations of others. Experiment. Do your own research.

The truth is out there.

 

[ENGLISH!]

If you've been under a particular impression, it's probably because other people have told you that, or you read it somewhere.

The best advice I can give you is to not limit yourself to the limitations of others. Experiment. Do your own research.

The truth is out there.

Ms. Crimi,

This may sound a bit ironic but how did some of those Bible Thumping travelling tent Evangelist say it....

...and the truth will set you free.

I'm a firm believer in telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Best Regards,

 

[FranCrimi]

Ms. Crimi,

This may sound a bit ironic but how did some of those Bible Thumping travelling tent Evangelist say it....

...and the truth will set you free.

I'm a firm believer in telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Best Regards,

Ha! I must have heard that oath at least 100 times in the last month. Just finished serving a month of grand jury duty.

I agree. Seek out the truth. Often times it takes a lot of work, but it's worth it.

Many people give advice without having even experimented on that very subject matter themselves. That's just wrong. A half-hour of trying something just doesn't cut it.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Ha! I must have heard that oath at least 100 times in the last month. Just finished serving a month of grand jury duty.

I agree. Seek out the truth. Often times it takes a lot of work, but it's worth it.

Many people give advice without having even experimented on that very subject matter themselves. That's just wrong. A half-hour of trying something just doesn't cut it.

Ms Crimi,

I agree. Some things take a bit more time than others.

I've spent several 3 hour sessons with CJ's TOI technique & while it worked well based on my personal 'aiming' method, I just could not get it dialed in based on just the two(2) CTC & CTE alignments that he says he uses & suggests. Up until yesterday I would have said, it's not for me.

Then yesterday when I followed his suggestion on how to get to the TOI position. It all fell in line & worked very well even though I only spent two(2) hours with it. I'm sure with more time it will get near perfect & become 2nd. nature.

I was taught in middle school to always consider the source of information & to look at the other veiw point & then make my own determinations. Everyone should be responsible for their own determinations & not just follow the Pied Piper blindly to their drowning in the river.

If I had listened to many here on AZB regarding CJ's TOI method, I would not be able to do with it what I can today, AND I did not get it as CJ does it after the first several 3 hours sessions even though I did see the potential. It took another tip from CJ & another two(2) hours to get it all to fall into place.

Time, experimantation, & some 'proper instructions' can yield results that some might say would be impossible.

Best Regard & Best Wishes to You,
Rick

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Ms Crimi,

I agree. Some things take a bit more time than others.

I've spent several 3 hour sessons with CJ's TOI technique & while it worked well based on my personal 'aiming' method, I just could not get it dialed in based on just the two(2) CTC & CTE alignments that he says he uses & suggests. Up until yesterday I would have said, it's not for me.

Then yesterday when I followed his suggestion on how to get to the TOI position. It all fell in line & worked very well even though I only spent two(2) hours with it. I'm sure with more time it will get near perfect & become 2nd. nature.

I was taught in middle school to always consider the source of information & to look at the other veiw point & then make my own determinations. Everyone should be responsible for their own determinations & not just follow the Pied Piper blindly to their drowning in the river.

If I had listened to many here on AZB regarding CJ's TOI method, I would not be able to do with it what I can today, AND I did not get it as CJ does it after the first several 3 hours sessions even though I did see the potential. It took another tip from CJ & another two(2) hours to get it all to fall into place.

Time, experimantation, & some 'proper instructions' can yield results that some might say would be impossible.

Best Regard & Best Wishes to You,
Rick

Rick

Why do you write two(2) and not three(3)?

 

[Pathetic Shark]

ok... here we go again..

I will honestly attempt to NOT piss anyone off BUT

I have a personal goal to make this the one part of azb that tells the truth to the people who ask..

there is a theory proposed by people whom I respect that the perfect pendulum is easier to learn.. I have done Mother drill 1 daily for almost 7 years.. my pendulum still gets a hitch some days.. but I keep trying..and I keep getting better at it.. I have gone from a D- to an A- in that time frame..

had I devoted all those hours to a piston based stroke I honestly believe that I would be almost exactly as skilled as I am today.

which jumping off point you choose is irrelevant.. it's the decade of work that gets you there..

there are only 2 types of people in pool those who decide to work.. and those who never get any better..

so to the OP stop choosing a diving board.. and dive.. the board won't swim you to the surface in either case

you have to do that

Couldn't agree more.

The chances of finding someone with enough promise, time and patience for an instructor to mold them into a champion with perfect mechanics is minimal. In the overwhelming number of cases, it's better to find your own way and stick to it. We all have a limit and we will all find it sooner or later anyway.

 

[Scott Lee]

Pathetic Shark...I have to disagree. There are many fine instructors who can help someone shave YEARS off the "learn on your own" timetable. We have proven it over and over. Learn on your own, possibly struggling for a long time...or get some quality instruction and learn a LOT faster (with some dedicated practice).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

The chances of finding someone with enough promise, time and patience for an instructor to mold them into a champion with perfect mechanics is minimal. In the overwhelming number of cases, it's better to find your own way and stick to it. We all have a limit and we will all find it sooner or later anyway.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Originally Posted by ENGLISH!
Ms Crimi,

I agree. Some things take a bit more time than others.

I've spent several 3 hour sessons with CJ's TOI technique & while it worked well based on my personal 'aiming' method, I just could not get it dialed in based on just the two(2) CTC & CTE alignments that he says he uses & suggests. Up until yesterday I would have said, it's not for me.

Then yesterday when I followed his suggestion on how to get to the TOI position. It all fell in line & worked very well even though I only spent two(2) hours with it. I'm sure with more time it will get near perfect & become 2nd. nature.

I was taught in middle school to always consider the source of information & to look at the other veiw point & then make my own determinations. Everyone should be responsible for their own determinations & not just follow the Pied Piper blindly to their drowning in the river.

If I had listened to many here on AZB regarding CJ's TOI method, I would not be able to do with it what I can today, AND I did not get it as CJ does it after the first several 3 hours sessions even though I did see the potential. It took another tip from CJ & another two(2) hours to get it all to fall into place.

Time, experimantation, & some 'proper instructions' can yield results that some might say would be impossible.

Best Regard & Best Wishes to You,
Rick

Rick

Rick, Why do you write two(2) and not three(3)?

Technically, I guess I should have NOT written, 'another' as my last session was only two(2) hours while the earlier ones were three(3) & 3+.

Can you tell me why that is important enough for you to ask this question?

Regards,