Ring Work Replication

Mikey Town

Mikey Town

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi all,

In the next few months, I will be looking to place an order for a custom cue of the Merry Widow variety. I'd like it to be nice and plain, made out of some really pretty ebony, a leather wrap and have the vast majority of the "flash" come from the ring work.

I am absolutely in love with this particular Ginacue ring work:

Ginacue_19APang_2.JPG


Not only am I not able to afford a Gina, but I've heard that Ernie isn't even taking orders for cues at this time. I don't exactly want to wait a year or more for my new cue, either.

My question is... Would it be out of line to ask a cue maker to replicate this ring work for me? Would this be viewed as design thievery or, since it's purely at the request of a customer, a tribute?

I think having this ring work at A, B, C, D and E, or a silver-trimmed, ivory Hoppe ring at E, could yield a really cool looking Merry Widow.

Please let me know your thoughts.


Thanks in advance,

Mike
 
Instead of asking us if it's ethical to do another builder's ring-work,
why not ask Ernie himself?
It sounds as though you're wanting back-door permission.
You might want to approach him on the prospect of selling you said ring-work.

KJ
 
In my opinion if ur paying for the rings no matter what they are or who designed them than it shouldn't matter who installs them...I mean look how many different ages of inlays there are peacock, diamond, gun sites an so on. Even how the tilist veneer colors has been copied by just about ever cue maker that's ever made a cue with veneered points. I don't consider it theft of design unless they started putting it on every cue they made. I consider using someone else's design as a high form of respect, but like I said that's just my opinion. An for the record merry widow style cues are my favor style of cue an with exception of the wood used the ring work is what makes the cue stand out among the rest
 
"design thievery or tribute" makes no difference.
It's using an original design without the originator's permission.
I fail to see how that's being respectful.

Since you want something spectacular and Ernie's ring-work is certainly that,
what's stopping you from designing something of your own???
Are all the designs taken, used up or spoken for??
Don't copy what you see in the world, copy what you see in your mind.
Then when someone copies 'your' ring-work, you'll know the feeling.

KJ
 
I think I understand KJ's thinking here, and if so I agree with it.


The way I see It, and if I'm wrong in My thinking, I do apologize to all that It may concern, but some of the ethics questions have to do with the intent. If you came to me and said I want rings just like said cuemaker has in his, I would not feel as good with It as if You came to me and said I want a ebony cue with fat dash rings that are capped, and stand out.

I'm sure the intent is probably good here, because at the same time asking the question is showing concern over how It would be perceived, but Like KJ mentioned the shear fact of asking the question also somewhat shows an intentional effort to copy someone Else's cue to save money, and that Is not something that many makers will feel comfortable with morally or ethically.

Some cue designs or combination of designs are more exclusive to individual makers. The actual type of ring work itself is not that uncommon. There can be some variables, such as exact dimensions, number of slots or materials that may be a little different or exclusive from one maker to another, but ultimately the way they are made is very common among many different makers.

Some times It's not what You are asking someone to do, but It's more the way You ask them, and where the intent is coming from.

With that said It is a nice looking cue, simple, but elegant, very well executed, and a clean design. It works and flows very well, so I can see why You were drawn to It.

Greg
 
Last edited:
That ring work is nothing new. It has been done by many cuemakers and is not unique to Ernie, so I see no problem making similar ringwork.
 
KJ,

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not the one building the cue... I am the customer. If I see something I like, and I can't get it from the original maker, then why shouldn't I be able to order it from someone else? Ernie isn't making Merry Widows anymore.

I'm honestly surprised at your responses. I thought that this would fall into the category of a Hoppe ring or a Titlist veneer.

I do appreciate the idea of contacting Ernie though. That honestly didn't even dawn on me. I'll do that... Heck, maybe I could buy just the ring work from him.

I was more curious to see what kind of responses I would receive when asking cue makers for a quote. I guess it will be a mixed response... Some think it's OK, some don't.

I really do appreciate all of your responses, though. Thank you.
 
Mikey Town said:
KJ,

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not the one building the cue... I am the customer. If I see something I like, and I can't get it from the original maker, then why shouldn't I be able to order it from someone else? Ernie isn't making Merry Widows anymore.

I'm honestly surprised at your responses. I thought that this would fall into the category of a Hoppe ring or a Titlist veneer.

I do appreciate the idea of contacting Ernie though. That honestly didn't even dawn on me. I'll do that... Heck, maybe I could buy just the ring work from him.

I was more curious to see what kind of responses I would receive when asking cue makers for a quote. I guess it will be a mixed response... Some think it's OK, some don't.

I really do appreciate all of your responses, though. Thank you.
Click to expand...

I will have to agree with KJ here. As Chris stated this ring work is common and if you were to have just asked for similar work as the example that would have been one thing. But the request was to copy. Even if this is common work what happens when it's not? Then is it ok to replicate it? My believe lies that if you set a precedence then it could be negative to the industry. That's why the hesitance to replicate the work exactly. JMHO

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk 2
 
Allen,

Where would you draw the line between "similar" and "copy"?

Sometimes it's hard to describe exactly what you want with words alone. I would much rather find a photo to convey what I wanted... that way I know that nothing would get lost in translation.

A "similar" look would be fine with me, but what changes would you make to the ring work in order to not consider it a "copy"?
 
I'm thinking of when there is a specific design that if it were to show up then it would be recognized. For instance if this ring work pictured was shown without the brand of cue attached would someone be able to say 100% the maker? Another example was a few months ago when 2 makers were had some discussion about some ring work that was thought to be invented by them. Turned out the design was originally neither makers if I remember correctly. That's where I would draw the line.

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk 2
 
cueman said:
That ring work is nothing new. It has been done by many cuemakers and is not unique to Ernie, so I see no problem making similar ringwork.
Click to expand...

CH, I think Ernie's alternating silver and ivory blocks are unique.
 
JoeyInCali said:
CH, I think Ernie's alternating silver and ivory blocks are unique.
Click to expand...

I didn't even notice the alternating silver and Ivory until you pointed it out.
But I am still sticking with slot work materials not mattering. If you see someone use Amboyna burl in a forearm with standard v-points out of Ironwood and they were the first to choose those two wood combinations, does that make it off limits to all other cuemakers who follow?
Does Joey Gold using silver stitch rings 30 count mean I can't use my 12 count silver stitch rings? And since I was probably the first to use the 12 slot silver stitch with wider silver, does that mean the 100 who have done it since then need to quit? Does me making rings out of silver Gallery wire in 1994 mean all that have used the same pattern wire for rings since then should not have done so?
I still do not think color combinations in standard slot rings should matter. If we get that picky with one another most cuemakers will wind up hating each other. I mean think about it. Who used the 3/8-10 pin first? Who used the 5/16-14 pin first? Who flat faced a joint with insert in the shaft first? Who used Purple Heart for break shafts first? Who used g-10 for joint pin material first? Who made the flat minor diameter joint pin first? Who used butt joint veneers in points first? Who put 6 points in first? The list of "who's first" could go on and on, but you get the point. We all use things we were not the first to use in our cues. So I think trying to be picky about slot ring material choices will get us no where and make people who stand against such out to seem like hypocrites if held up to the same standard they are judging with.
 
Last edited:
cueman said:
I didn't even notice the alternating silver and Ivory until you pointed it out.
But I am still sticking with slot work materials not mattering. If you see someone use Amboyna burl in a forearm with standard v-points out of Ironwood and they were the first to choose those two wood combinations, does that make it off limits to all other cuemakers who follow?
Does Joey Gold using silver stitch rings 30 count mean I can't use my 12 count silver stitch rings? And since I was probably the first to use the 12 slot silver stitch with wider silver, does that mean the 100 who have done it since then need to quit? Does me making rings out of silver Gallery wire in 1994 mean all that have used the same pattern wire for rings since then should not have done so?
I still do not think color combinations in standard slot rings should matter. If we get that picky with one another most cuemakers will wind up hating each other. I mean think about it. Who used the 3/8-10 pin first? Who used the 5/16-14 pin first? Who flat faced a joint with insert in the shaft first? Who used Purple Heart for break shafts first? Who used g-10 for joint pin material first? Who made the flat minor diameter joint pin first? Who used butt joint veneers in points first? Who put 6 points in first? The list of "who's first" could go on and on, but you get the point. We all use things we were not the first to use in our cues. So I think trying to be picky about slot ring material choices will get us no where and make people who stand against such out to seem like hypocrites if held up to the same standard they are judging with.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Do what the customer wishes and you will never go wrong.

I am sure the Mr. G don't care one way or another.

Not that it is not a good thing to be original via designs, it is a good thing!

JMO,

Rick
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

Do what the customer wishes and you will never go wrong.
Click to expand...
I am sure the Mr. G don't care one way or another.

Not that it is not a good thing to be original via designs, it is a good thing!

JMO,

Rick
Click to expand...
Yes, you can.
If you make a dead copy of Gus or Bushka, there is no telling someone is going to pass that along as the real one.
If you make a cue to look like another maker's cue as per request, it won't reflect well on you.
jmho
Ernie G sure cares about cdt . His face looks like Tony Montana when talking about it. Complete with hand gestures.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Yes, you can.
If you make a dead copy of Gus or Bushka, there is no telling someone is going to pass that along as the real one.
If you make a cue to look like another maker's cue as per request, it won't reflect well on you.
jmho
Ernie G sure cares about cdt . His face looks like Tony Montana when talking about it. Complete with hand gestures.
Click to expand...

I completely understand that credit should be given when and where it is due.

If a cue maker used a design that was originated by another maker, and was a common theme in that maker's cues, then tried to pass it off as his own in order to market and sell it to the general public, then sure... The originator of the design should be upset.

However, isn't it a bit different when a cue maker strictly does it as a one-off, at the request of a customer? Especially when it isn't possible for that customer to get the cue that they want from the person who originated the design.

Say you own a pizza parlor, and you are the first to offer the "Bacon, Olive, Mushroom and Onion Pizza." It was popular, and people liked it, but for one reason or another you decided to take it off the menu and not offer it anymore. A few months later, you found out that a few people really liked that combination of toppings but, since you didn't offer it anymore, they called in an order to Pizza Hut with the same combination of toppings... different pizza, but the exact same toppings. Would you be mad at Pizza Hut for "stealing" your idea? All they did was fulfil a customer's request.
 
Mikey Town said:
Hi all,

In the next few months, I will be looking to place an order for a custom cue of the Merry Widow variety. I'd like it to be nice and plain, made out of some really pretty ebony, a leather wrap and have the vast majority of the "flash" come from the ring work.

I am absolutely in love with this particular Ginacue ring work:

Ginacue_19APang_2.JPG


Not only am I not able to afford a Gina, but I've heard that Ernie isn't even taking orders for cues at this time. I don't exactly want to wait a year or more for my new cue, either.

My question is... Would it be out of line to ask a cue maker to replicate this ring work for me? Would this be viewed as design thievery or, since it's purely at the request of a customer, a tribute?


Please let me know your thoughts.


Thanks in advance,

Mike
Click to expand...

If I remember right from the TAR "Genius of Ginacue" documentary, Ernie took legal action against someone copying a cue of his. Granted, that was an entire cue and not ringwork, but it still shows that he values the time he spends drafting and designing.

I'd suggest designing your own ringwork- even if it uses the same materials. By investing your time in the design, you'll have more appreciation for the work that goes into it. Then you can show off your custom cue with ringwork you had a hand in. Pretty cool if you ask me.

Have fun!
 
DoubleD said:
A bit ridiculous to compare a pizza to a cue, isn't it?

That said, design patents and trademarks exist for a reason. If a cuemaker thinks that his ability to put silver squares next to white squares in between two silver lines is extraordinary and an identifying feature of his cues, he is perfectly welcome to register for a patent or trademark.

A few cuemakers may get angry about this type of thing, but I guarantee that 99.99% of the potential customers won't notice.

dld
Click to expand...

I don't think so... White boxes next to silver boxes... Mushrooms next to olives... Makes no difference. Just because the use and cost of the item is different, doesn't mean that it changes the principal.

If anyone has ever walked through a few high end Jewelery stores, they would see that the same designs are used over and over on items much more costly than pool cues.

The patent/trademark comment is a very good point. Have any cue makers ever done this?
 
JoeyInCali said:
Yes, you can.
If you make a dead copy of Gus or Bushka, there is no telling someone is going to pass that along as the real one.
If you make a cue to look like another maker's cue as per request, it won't reflect well on you.
jmho
Ernie G sure cares about cdt . His face looks like Tony Montana when talking about it. Complete with hand gestures.
Click to expand...


I guess that is something you will never have to worry about.LOL
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top