Summary: Bad Idea+ Bad Plan+ Inexperienced People+Low finances+Bad Mgmt+Scam Players[ pie in the sky money]=FAILURE SURPRISE?????? Now what? BB blame everyone else,Stall,stall,stall until players quit, then say no backpay because you quit! How many players are now stuck with leases on their LV apts?Scams never end pretty!
Bogus Ball..from the start
- Thread starter sopadre
- Start date
So who exactly are YOU blaming here? The Bonus Ball crew? Is this criticism based on first-hand knowledge? Are you privy to the contracts that were signed?
Let's not judge a venture project (in a free-market [and contractual market no less]) until that period of time—called the short-run— takes hold. Business is not easy these days, friend.
I agree,business is tough.I own 2 businesses. Extremely tough if you start with the issues i listed above.I am sureBB would welcome you[and everyone else who still thinks BB is legit and a good investment]to put your money into their hands as an investment.I am sure they would give you a promise of repayment. Any takers???? If so,please come back in a few weeks and tell us how that turned out.I have some bridges and gold mines in Africa that you can also invest in.A scam depends on suckers keeping the faith until the building completely burns down.
I don't believe it is a scam...correction: I don't believe it began as a scam. That is intentional deceit for profit. Might be one now. I wouldnt work another day, but then again I wasn't invited at all, in the first place.
I think it has been a comedy of incompetence and errors, from the get-go.
How does it affect anyone not involved in anyway though? What business is it to people not involved? Looks like someone lost a good chunk and that's their business.
In General terms, not talking about BB, this is just the scam biz:
A good scam ends with no legal action or problems.
In general terms when your setting up a scam, your just looking how to collect as much $$ as possible and spend as little to keep it going until you collect the last possible money. And getting out clean-no heat, lawsuits, alive, etc.
If the business actually works then its not a scam, its a viable biz. So when your setting up a scam you might want the biz to appear to be working ONLY to your investors, who cares what the "people in the know think"?? , that dont matter as long as they dont come in contact with your targets(investors) , Got to keep the investors in the dark long as possible. Never wake up a dummy(investor) let them think they are betting on a solid winner.
Dont let the right hand know what the left hand is doing-at all times.
To wind down a scam is the tricky part if you want to keep the $$ and not face legal action, Govt or private. This is where most people get caught or they stay in too long chasing the last dollar and catch a beef.
admit to nothing, deny everything, demand proof
None of this is refering to BB, i'm talking about scams in general. in vegas they used to have the casino investment scam going for years, they had a big sign, Caterpillar, trailer with blue prints in it, looked like a job site for a new casino, they had some building materials on site. it would get moved around from time to time to look like something was happening. they were selling hi-rollers on the dream of getting on "the other side of the action" pitch, that ran in Vegas from the late 50's to the early 90's. There are plenty more scams out there.
the reason i know of this, is i never wanted to get introuble so i studied them and learned what not to do. there is a thin line between being a scam and a legit biz, not so much now as 20 years ago.
i'm reserving judgment on BB until i see how it plays out. Too soon to tell for sure what the intent was of the promoters(the guy who cashed the investors checks and spent the $$$), see investors are helpless-the promoter of a scam is the guy who has all the leverage. If BB is a scam its a C- at best, there are much faster cleaner scams than what BB has done, which is why i'm not convinced it is a scam. Like I said time will tell...
A good scam ends with no legal action or problems.
In general terms when your setting up a scam, your just looking how to collect as much $$ as possible and spend as little to keep it going until you collect the last possible money. And getting out clean-no heat, lawsuits, alive, etc.
If the business actually works then its not a scam, its a viable biz. So when your setting up a scam you might want the biz to appear to be working ONLY to your investors, who cares what the "people in the know think"?? , that dont matter as long as they dont come in contact with your targets(investors) , Got to keep the investors in the dark long as possible. Never wake up a dummy(investor) let them think they are betting on a solid winner.
Dont let the right hand know what the left hand is doing-at all times.
To wind down a scam is the tricky part if you want to keep the $$ and not face legal action, Govt or private. This is where most people get caught or they stay in too long chasing the last dollar and catch a beef.
admit to nothing, deny everything, demand proof
None of this is refering to BB, i'm talking about scams in general. in vegas they used to have the casino investment scam going for years, they had a big sign, Caterpillar, trailer with blue prints in it, looked like a job site for a new casino, they had some building materials on site. it would get moved around from time to time to look like something was happening. they were selling hi-rollers on the dream of getting on "the other side of the action" pitch, that ran in Vegas from the late 50's to the early 90's. There are plenty more scams out there.
the reason i know of this, is i never wanted to get introuble so i studied them and learned what not to do. there is a thin line between being a scam and a legit biz, not so much now as 20 years ago.
i'm reserving judgment on BB until i see how it plays out. Too soon to tell for sure what the intent was of the promoters(the guy who cashed the investors checks and spent the $$$), see investors are helpless-the promoter of a scam is the guy who has all the leverage. If BB is a scam its a C- at best, there are much faster cleaner scams than what BB has done, which is why i'm not convinced it is a scam. Like I said time will tell...
Nobody cares BB lost its money on their own mistakes.We care about our friends that are stuck with a months bills and a lease because of BB false statements about finances and big payouts.Financed for 2 years, weekly payments,big bonuses etc.Broke after 2 weeks!!!!! Many players changed their lives based on these false promises.IPT, BB how many more black eyes for pool before the players learn to investigate before they fall for another scam!
Great post.
For all those that tried and tried and tried to find a viable business model in BB, perhaps there never was one. Or at least never one good enough to look viable to anyone that knew the pool numbers and possibilities. Which may just be why none of the investors were really pool people, as none of them would pitch their money down that hole.
Of course this all puts a slightly different spin on the claim that billiard enthusiasts, like the people of AZ, were not the "target" audience.
Its one thing pitching an investor that knows nothing about pool, showing charts and graphs spinning huge profits of PPV subscribers. Its quite another pitching someone who figures based on his knowledge and experience, how many viewers you would actually be likely to get.
Its very likely its the investors' cash that's on hiatus in this scenario.
Thanks for posting this Eric.
Kevin
CYA cover your ass, they people who fail to do this in life have problems-i cant make their problems my problem(i have lots of my own). Due diligence before you move anywhere is the smart thing to do, anything less-forget finger ointing and take responsibility for your self is what i say. When I screw up an I have done my fair share, it's my fault-i blame myself for my losses-I NEVER LOOK TO BLAME SOMEONE ELSE!!!! So yeah I feel bad for some of the guys but at the end of the day they made a bad move and its on them. that aint PC and is a tough pill to swallow but so what?, thats the facts. the american blame game has turned everyone into a finger pointing pussy IMO, just like pulling up on a set when the score is tied, WTF? is it all coming to? its embarrassing thats what it is....
I don' think this was a scam as much as a failed dream of one man or more to be the creator of the "new game".
I know many think that the "same ole same ole" is simply repeating the same mistakes over and over again. That was the pitch from Bonus Ball. The status quo tournaments and events have not worked for xxx years you should play bonus ball. Everyone should get paid equally with a bonus at the end.
At the same time they were repeating many of the same mistakes made by KT and the Galveston World Classic. More so the later, imo.
The format and team system for BB is excellent, the problem is the game. No way it would every catch on in time. Too much month at the end of the money. The problem is that the organizers are here to promote their game not the format or team system.
The players will all learn a lot from this experience. They cannot lose. The only way they could lose is if they never tried.
Ray
I know many think that the "same ole same ole" is simply repeating the same mistakes over and over again. That was the pitch from Bonus Ball. The status quo tournaments and events have not worked for xxx years you should play bonus ball. Everyone should get paid equally with a bonus at the end.
At the same time they were repeating many of the same mistakes made by KT and the Galveston World Classic. More so the later, imo.
The format and team system for BB is excellent, the problem is the game. No way it would every catch on in time. Too much month at the end of the money. The problem is that the organizers are here to promote their game not the format or team system.
The players will all learn a lot from this experience. They cannot lose. The only way they could lose is if they never tried.
Ray
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when it all shakes out, if it is a scam , i'll explain it in a direct way. i just was talking about basic scams; Scams 101. So to speak.
There is still a slight chance its legit and just been poorly run, however that is a necessary component of a scam, it has to appear to be a biz or a biz in trouble(even better for a scam). if its a biz in trouble then the pitch changes.
the new pitch is the "Lets salvage this thing" pitch, "we can get in for pennys of the dollar and really hit a home run" Thats the angle for the 2nd and 3rd rounds of new $$$ from people who had no prior knowledge of it.
AGAIN IM NOT SUGGESTING THIS IS THE CASE AT ALL WITH BB, I dont have enough facts to have a opinion.
The internet has really damaged the scam biz as it records history. Back before the internet how could people in Canada check up on their investment in Vegas? they couldn't, now they can. So it makes raising $$$ for the "Salvage" pitch much more tricky, basically a 2nd promoter has to take over, and the first guy has to disappear.
I know lots about this topic, i have studied it for years, it fascinates me. I never had the stones to start one or participate in one(other than as a passive investor). I do find it interesting how they all work, I put $$$ into a restaurant deal once-i was 80% sure it was a scam, it was. I wanted to hear and se how they handled me. Thats how curious I was. The bad part is I lost the $$$ and didnt learn anything new. LOL joke was on me. yes it was lots.
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im in a bad mood today.....in vegas thinking about how much $$ i lost on property here.
So when i see posts about whos fault something is, it really irritates me-i lost cause i bought in 02-04 and was stupid enough to hold everything after the crash, its on me. period. still stings like a *****.
Yup for sure man, its all conjecture. HOWEVER, it makes way more sense as a scam than it does as a legit biz. Plenty of people that know pool and know biz were scratching their heads without being able to come close to seeing how it could pencil out. Not even close. Forget recouping start-up $$$, how about covering the 50K a month nut? I never read one explanation that even came close to making sense.
Now a scam to bilk investors? That I can see.
Like you said, all conjecture at this point.
Kevin
i think Ray is right, a failed dream, the reason I think this is the case is Larry was at it too long for it to be a scam, usually in a scam you make a hit and run. Larry was at it far to long to fit the profile of a scam. He is too passionate about BB. Thats why I hedged on my previous posts and said "things in general terms, not implying BB is a scam". I dont read Larry that way at all, i have spoke to him several times and he didnt strike me as a bad guy at all. He IMO wants to build a new cue sport, thats his passion and dream, and I hope he can and does. However I dont think spending $50K/week is the way forward to do that.
FatBoy
I don't know the man at all, so I'll sort of temper my previous 85/15 line that it was a scam all the way down to 70/30 based on your assessment. Plus, I have no ideal how much of his own skin he had in the game.
Kevin
I hear ya...as much as we keep telling ourselves to forget it and move on...its still hard to do.
Its keeping me from doing stuff I know is better and I'd have way more fun with it also.
Get a water or a pop and sit somewhere on the strip and people watch for awhile, then think how fortunate you really are when you know how bad it could be.
I sit on my patio and think, even though its not like it was, I'm still very grateful for what I have.
Just have to get that motivation again to get the ass in gear.
your right, thanks man:smile::smile:
he has a million hours of his time, so id say he has lots of skin in the game. which is what leads me to believe Rays very well worded assessment a few posts back. Ray said it best, a (at the preset time) broken dream. I really hope it does work out.