Ball to Ball Physics

BeiberLvr said:
Maybe it's not ghostball after all, but Duckie's lack of understanding speed control, that has kept from progressing past a low level player.
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Musta hit a nerve......I always know when I do cause the personal attacks start...

So I'll just follow suit, you don't have clue one about what a pool stroke is. Those that keep using the term hit are also clueless about what stroke is. You don't hit the cb you stroke through it and there is a difference.

With a pool stroke, there is no soft meduim or hard , there is only the stroke need to put the cue tip pass where the cb was. There is no hit. Now, your stroke maybe so bad that you do hit the cb, but that's you and are problem.

Oh and since you have played me(not), you are so right about my level of play, I mean you just whooped my ass didn't you...
 
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duckie said:
Musta hit a nerve......I always know when I do cause the personal attacks start...

So I'll just follow suit, you don't have clue one about what a pool stroke is. Those that keep using the term hit are also clueless about what stroke is. You don't hit the cb you stroke through it and there is a difference.

With a pool stroke, there is no soft meduim or hard , there is only the stroke need to put the cue tip pass where the cb was. There is no hit. Now, your stroke maybe so bad that you do hit the cb, but that's you and are problem.

Oh and since you have played me(not), you are so right about my level of play, I mean you just whooped my ass didn't you...
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Well, why don't you just take the Billiard University exams, film it, and show us all how it should be done?
 
For the context of the whole contact-induced-throw argument, we'll layout these terms.

Professional 9' length table, 860 Simonis cloth.

Speed 1 = ball travels 1 table length
Speed 2 = ball travels 2 table lengths
Speed 3 = ball travels 3 table lengths
.... get it?

SOFT: 0-1.5
MEDIUM: 1.5-2.5
HARD: 2.5+

Different equipment may produce different results, but not enough to matter for the context at hand.

So given the video demonstration, the ball pockets when hit SOFT/MEDIUM, but when moved to a HARD speed the ball hits a whole diamond short on the end rail. There are two problems with this. First, the effect of CIT is exactly opposite: you should see more CIT the SLOWER the ball is hit. Second, hitting the ball HARD will not produce enough CIT to throw the ball of a full diamond. I don't care how dirty the balls are.

Either the alignment is off, or the cueball is loaded with sidespin to squirt the ball off alignment. CIT is not the culprit here. At HARD speed on a half-ball hit there technically is some CIT, but we're talking millimeters here, not diamonds.
 
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mohrt said:
For the context of the whole contact-induced-throw argument, we'll layout these terms.

Professional 9' length table, 860 Simonis cloth.

Speed 1 = ball travels 1 table length
Speed 2 = ball travels 2 table lengths
Speed 3 = ball travels 3 table lengths
.... get it?

SOFT: 0-1.5
MEDIUM: 1.5-2.5
HARD: 2.5+

Different equipment may produce different results, but not enough to matter for the context at hand.

So given the video demonstration, the ball pockets when hit SOFT/MEDIUM, but when moved to a HARD speed the ball hits a whole diamond short on the end rail. There are two problems with this. First, the effect of CIT is exactly opposite: you should see more CIT the SLOWER the ball is hit. Second, hitting the ball HARD will not produce enough CIT to throw the ball of a full diamond. I don't care how dirty the balls are.

Either the alignment is off, or the cueball is loaded with sidespin to squirt the ball off alignment. CIT is not the culprit here. At HARD speed on a half-ball hit there technically is some CIT, but we're talking millimeters here, not diamonds.
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Where am i hitting the ob mohrt to create these angles?
 
8pack said:
Where am i hitting the ob mohrt to create these angles?
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You are hitting the OB thicker. Or the CB is squirting and as a result, hitting the OB thicker. Look, I'm not saying CIT can't throw the OB off its path. Of course it can, common sense physics. But CIT on a harder shot is not going to throw the ball off farther than a softer shot, given the same environment and same shot. It's the opposite. Maybe, just maybe you can get the OB up a diamond by shooting pocket speed with some crazy dirty balls, but normally I doubt you'll get more than a ball width off the pocket when the OB comes from the spot.

[edit] Dr. Dave says maximum CIT is about 2" per diamond of travel.
 
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Not trying to get on your case 8pack, but there are some questions about what is going on in that video. I just refreshed my memory and watched it again. What you say at the end: "how thick, speed, and where you hit CB, all affect where the OB goes." I 100% agree with that.

So one question about the first two shot demonstrations. First is high and soft, and the ball is made in the pocket. 2nd is high and hard, and it misses by nearly a diamond. So what you are suggesting that if everything is exactly the same and all you do is increase speed, the OB will fall long of the pocket? Or am I not clearly understanding what is demonstrated?
 
mohrt said:
Not trying to get on your case 8pack, but there are some questions about what is going on in that video. I just refreshed my memory and watched it again. What you say at the end: "how thick, speed, and where you hit CB, all affect where the OB goes." I 100% agree with that.

So one question about the first two shot demonstrations. First is high and soft, and the ball is made in the pocket. 2nd is high and hard, and it misses by nearly a diamond. So what you are suggesting that if everything is exactly the same and all you do is increase speed, the OB will fall long of the pocket? Or am I not clearly understanding what is demonstrated?
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.
Btw slow high isnt the same as hard high.

Not sure if its the high on the cb knocking the ob downwards creating a foward skid on the ob.It could be that the cue ball could be in the air causing a skid .

WHO KNOWS ..iT HAPPENS:p
 
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I would check:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html

Dr. Dave can answer this point.

Or this:
http://billiards.about.com/od/Greatness/a/Pool-Induced-Throw-Counteract-It-Master-It.htm

Facts About Throw:

Unclean balls grab together and change release angles at impact.

In general, throw is larger at slower speeds, and for stun shots. For larger cut angles, (thin hits) the amount of Collision Induced Throw is larger for slow shots. The amount of CIT decreases with thicker hits but not by much (again, especially for slower speed shots).

Maximum CIT occurs at close to a half-ball hit.
 
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8pack said:
When I get time I will educate you more mohrt.
Btw slow high isnt the same as hard high.

Not sure ifs its the high on the cb knocking the ob downwards creating a foward skid on the ob.It could be that the cue ball could be in the air causing a skid .

WHO KNOWS ..iT HAPPENS
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Changing only speed to hard is not going to move that OB farther off the target. A skid is not going to throw if off either (at that speed.) I'll tell you what I think happens: When you hit the ball harder you are imparting some unintentional english on the CB, squirting the ball slightly to the right resulting in a thicker hit. Or, your backhand is coming off alignment when you put more power into your shot, resulting in a slightly off-center hit and sending the CB off line. It doesn't take much.

Try freezing a ghostball on the OB directly in line with the pocket. That will eliminate bad alignment. Now hit that ghostball HARD with the cueball, see if you can get the OB anywhere near a diamond off target.
 
mohrt said:
Changing only speed to hard is not going to move that OB farther off the target. A skid is not going to throw if off either (at that speed.) I'll tell you what I think happens: When you hit the ball harder you are imparting some unintentional english on the CB, squirting the ball slightly to the right resulting in a thicker hit. Or, your backhand is coming off alignment when you put more power into your shot, resulting in a slightly off-center hit and sending the CB off line. It doesn't take much.

Try freezing a ghostball on the OB directly in line with the pocket. That will eliminate bad alignment. Now hit that ghostball HARD with the cueball, see if you can get the OB anywhere near a diamond off target.
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Just go try it for yourself.
 
mohrt said:
I most certainly did. They all seem to hit the pocket for me *shrug*
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Thats not good...rub your chalk on it ,help me out .:grin-square:

I will try another demonstration for you later.

Anthony
 
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I guarantee that all three shots go easy when hit hard. Follow, stun and draw - it is just plain silly to think that the ball deflects a diamond or more because of speed. I will post a link shortly.


8pack said:
Thats not good...rub your chalk on it ,help me out .:grin-square:

I will try another demonstration for you later.

Anthony
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When you add spin then all bets are off because that is when other factors come into play. If the playing surface is flat then a ball hit straight with no english will travel to the target.

With spin however you have the swerve effect, deflection and accuracy to contend with. In addition you have the condition of the balls, the condition of the cloth and the humidity level as factors.

In other words the more spin and speed the more difficulty you introduce into the shot and the more the results can vary.

I address this in this video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKCDjPgtCwE

Basically, when using spin, unless you make a set up that insures that you hit the ball exactly in the right spot with exactly the same aim at exactly the same speed each time then you can not know if you hit the shot the same way twice.

My contention is that often what happens is that you intend to hit it one way but the combination of factors produces a contact that is far off what you intended making the results off. This even happens to the pros when you see that they intended to make the cue ball go one place and it ends up somewhere else. This is a game of millimeters actually as being just a millimeter off the shot line you selected can result in dramatic swings in the path of the object ball.

To understand what a mm is type two Ls -----> II the distance between them at regular viewing size is about 1 mm. Set up a shot with a known line and shoot it until you can't miss it. Now move the cue ball just 1mm off that line and shoot the same shot with the cue ball traveling parallel to the marked line. You will see that the farther the object ball is from the pocket the more it will travel away from the pocket.
 
Here are some pictures of slow high then hard high and the center ball hit.
The slow high I could actually get a snap shot of the cb close to the ball.
When I shot faster, I couldnt actually get a close cb to ob shot,but you can see it tracking towards the 1/2 ball hit.(close as my stroke will get me).

With high hard and Im hitting it pretty hard,the ob and cb are leaving the table.
Center I couldnt notice a big hop but it looks like its coming off the table to.

My video isnt about how much what does,its about what can happen .:)
Im sure different balls,table maybe the air you will have somewhat different results.

I could care less whats suppose to happen.
This did happen.

Get a frame by frame program and take a look at where the cb hiting.:)s
 

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Gerry Williams said:
I guarantee that all three shots go easy when hit hard. Follow, stun and draw - it is just plain silly to think that the ball deflects a diamond or more because of speed. I will post a link shortly.
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Pro1 must be saving you from what can happen...I think pro1 users are immune to everything.

Silly...you kidding:smile:

Anthony
 
8pack said:
Thats not good...rub your chalk on it ,help me out .:grin-square:

I will try another demonstration for you later.

Anthony
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For those that missed this maxim by a Subject Matter Expert.:thumbup:

http://billiards.about.com/od/Greatn...-Master-It.htm

Facts About Throw:

Unclean balls grab together and change release angles at impact.

In general, throw is larger at slower speeds, and for stun shots. For larger cut angles, (thin hits) the amount of Collision Induced Throw is larger for slow shots. The amount of CIT decreases with thicker hits but not by much (again, especially for slower speed shots).

Maximum CIT occurs at close to a half-ball hit.
 
Pro One takes you to a slight over cut but this isn't about Pro One.

On one of your shots it almost banked straight back - you telling me that you hit it good?



8pack said:
Pro1 must be saving you from what can happen...I think pro1 users are immune to everything.

Silly...you kidding:smile:

Anthony
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