Scott, give me a call. 702-927-5689
Springiness of Diamond rails
- Thread starter scottjen26
- Start date
I personally like the way the tables play there, IT IS the nicest pool hall in jacksonville, and hourly price reflects that lol. They have measle cue balls which are heavier, thats why they play so fast, but not absurdly so. I play in the sunday tourneys regularly there, and the other people who also play regularly in sunday tourney also like the tables there, not so much the hourly price however. Scott is right that the sunday field is strong, wow its actually pretty sick the field for a little weekly sunday tourney.
Try a red circle cue on those tables scott, it should slow things down for you a smidge. (dont expect to be using that cue ball in tourneys though, lol)
Try a red circle cue on those tables scott, it should slow things down for you a smidge. (dont expect to be using that cue ball in tourneys though, lol)
Ditto Scott....
I don't know either one of you but, I have the same issue...I'm a "A" player and have been for a very long time. I own my own room in Maryland and the three Diamond pro-ams I have play normal. What I mean is when the ball hits the rail it doesn't jump off as if it was a super ball!! The tables at Valley Forge play very springy. some springyer than others but most play way to fast!! I have played on a million tables and have just noticed in the last couple of years that Diamond must have changed the rubbers? I was told from one source that they put Artimis rails on them and thats what they said are on 3-cushion tables where the rails need to be lightning fast so they can make the ball go five and six and even seven rails sometimes, which I had a 3-cushion table at one time but have recently sold.
This info is coming from a wide source of players that are very disgusted at the way they play also...
Not sure what is up but all I know is they play rediculously springy!
I will be changing the cloth on my soon and I then will have a good look at what rails I have at least. Thanks, Levi.
I don't know either one of you but, I have the same issue...I'm a "A" player and have been for a very long time. I own my own room in Maryland and the three Diamond pro-ams I have play normal. What I mean is when the ball hits the rail it doesn't jump off as if it was a super ball!! The tables at Valley Forge play very springy. some springyer than others but most play way to fast!! I have played on a million tables and have just noticed in the last couple of years that Diamond must have changed the rubbers? I was told from one source that they put Artimis rails on them and thats what they said are on 3-cushion tables where the rails need to be lightning fast so they can make the ball go five and six and even seven rails sometimes, which I had a 3-cushion table at one time but have recently sold.
This info is coming from a wide source of players that are very disgusted at the way they play also...
Not sure what is up but all I know is they play rediculously springy!
I will be changing the cloth on my soon and I then will have a good look at what rails I have at least. Thanks, Levi.
The cushions on the 9ft's have been the Artemis Intercontinental K55 cushions for several years now, Diamond has not changed the cushions, but rather redesigned the sub-rails to lower the back of the cushions by 1/16" of an inch, then raised the nose height back up to 1 29/64"...same as it's been for years as well. The change in the sub-rails levels the cushions out more so that they play more normal...same as the US OPEN 9ball, Derby City, Tunica tournaments tables. This change first took place in the 2010 US Open 9ball event in October of that year. If your tables are older than that, then they don't have the newer change on the rails, but have the same cushions used on the new Diamond's being built today. So, the question is, when did you buy your Diamond's?
Glen
PS. The Artemis cushions Diamond uses are also used on billiard tables for playing straight rail billiards, but they're to slow for 3 cushion, 3 cushion tables use a much more dense cushion, meaning much harder than cushions used for pool or straight rail billiards, so don't miss-take the Artemis cushions for 3 Cushion billiard cushion, because no 3 Cushion table manufacture uses them on their 10ft 3C tables.
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So, the cue ball never slows down then right...it just keeps getting faster and faster after coming into contact with one rail after another....right?
Look, I've traveled this whole country from coast to coast...even up to Alaska 5 times...and I can tell you for sure without a doubt....table conditions change from area to area, and one of the biggest changes is humidity, wear and tear, dirty cloth...and dirty balls. If you don't want to accept that as a reliable answer then I suggest you do some research on your own and come up with an answer....as I already have one, and it's based on facts...not assumptions
Glen
RKC is right. In my pool room humidity goes up to 90% from time to time.
Tables plays springy like hell. In that conditions i polish balls using buffalo ball polisher, and i rub rails with old cloth to warm them up. After that table rails are 20% slower.
OP u should try that :thumbup:
Levi, when did you buy your tables?...and is your friends table "New" or new to him because he bought it this year, but was a used table to begin with?
Spray some ArmorAll on the rail cloth first, then wipe them down...that'll remove all the friction from the balls coming in contact with the damp cushion cloth they'll play like normal.
New or older table...
Hi Glenn,
My tables are older style like I said in my previous post...mine play NORMAL. The ball hits rail and just comes off about the same speed or maybe a hair slower ( Blonde hair that is) lol!!
Now my friends table....which is a fairly new table, within a year or two...
The ball hits rail and it seems as if it actually increases speed?? Does not play normal at all?? It's tough to play on and you can NEVER,NEVER let your stroke out!! Like I said it's like playing with a super-ball???
So from your prior post you said that Diamond had NOT changed rails but they have modified the cut of the actual rail itself.
So if thats true..."which i believe you" the he will never get it to play normal because it has been modified, right?
The only way is to change tops, right?
Please reply back asap because he wants me to get this fixed for him now.
Helllllpppppppp????
Hi Glenn,
My tables are older style like I said in my previous post...mine play NORMAL. The ball hits rail and just comes off about the same speed or maybe a hair slower ( Blonde hair that is) lol!!
Now my friends table....which is a fairly new table, within a year or two...
The ball hits rail and it seems as if it actually increases speed?? Does not play normal at all?? It's tough to play on and you can NEVER,NEVER let your stroke out!! Like I said it's like playing with a super-ball???
So from your prior post you said that Diamond had NOT changed rails but they have modified the cut of the actual rail itself.
So if thats true..."which i believe you" the he will never get it to play normal because it has been modified, right?
The only way is to change tops, right?
Please reply back asap because he wants me to get this fixed for him now.
Helllllpppppppp????
perfectpocketz
Banned
Why would anyone want to spray shit on the rails....just to have the table play the way a table should already play?
The problem is not going away until the cushions are no longer Artemis or diamond black....period.
I have used all of the cushions....I have tried all the bevel angels....sub rail heights.....(IMO) the bunswick super speed cushion installed the right way at the right nose height are the best playing cushions on a pool table I've found.
I don't want to hear all the bullshit about how they go bad....that was years ago....when Brunswick couldn't keep up with all the pool table orders.
The color of money started a boom in pool....look how long it took Brunswick to go from the GC3 to the GC 4....seems to me they sold a ton of 3s.
Back in the day.....we never wanted the cloth changed...the older the cloth got...the better the table played. You figure it out....way to many mechanics with answers...and not enough with exsperiance I'm not the greatest....I just give the info I know to be true.
Putting shims under the rails???? What's that going to do....slow the table and make the rails sound hollow.
I just did a GC 4....cut the sub rails off....and yes they didn't need to come off....I did it to change the rail inserts and fit the super speed where I wanted them.....all I can say is that table plays great.
Now I'm waiting for the cloth to break in...about 8 months from now I'll know for sure how the tables going to play. The inserts make the Brunswick table much more solid.
And there's no such thing as Diamondnize your Brunswick.
I use my spec's on rails.....most people on here want to believe that they got their rails redone by such and such and they play perfect......but the true question is....just want kind of player are they to start with????
I've said it many times before.....if you don't know how a table should play...how could you ever tell how rails should play?
The problem with some wanting me to redo their rails is my pricing.
You get what you pay for....and if you just want to say...hey this guy did my table and it's perfect...then everyone should be happy.
Believe me....I'm still learning about the rails and cushions...but I put a lot of hours in trying to get them perfect.....everyone wants to redo your rails.....but it just the money that makes them want the job....believe me....everyone knocks the guy to get the job and can do it just as good as me for way less money......I would love to see those rails my friends.
Mark Gregory
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Humidity effect all cushions Mark, you know that...even the Brunswick Superspeed cushions. All the ArmorAll should be used for is to offset the humidity
Thanks for the offer to call Glen, we spoke about this a little already back when I called about some table questions last year. If I get a chance this weekend I'll try to call. It's not really a big deal though, since it's not my room I can't go in there and start spraying tables or changing out cushions, just have to deal with it.
Can't be the cue ball, same cue ball and balls in other rooms on other tables.
Can't be humidity, it's humid in every room here, and more so in other rooms actually, especially one where the AC doesn't work so well. Tables play "normal" there, no issues.
Has to be something about these particular Diamonds - hardened rubber, different rubber, improperly installed rubber, etc. Hard to believe, but yet true.
And to owll - not sure who you are, since you didn't sign your name, but it's not the cue ball. That would imply that measles cue balls would play faster everywhere, but again they don't. There is nothing different about the tables other than the tables themselves, equipment and environmental factors are similar everywhere in town.
I'm pretty sure most people don't love the tables. Talked with Butch, Larry, Bowflex, and a number of the other top players, they've simply acknowledged the differences and adapted their game to them. They've also agreed that when playing on other Diamonds at the larger tourneys or in other rooms that they don't play the same. I guess if I played there more often, instead of 1 or 2 tourneys a year, I would adapt as well. Just frustrating that I can calibrate to other tables so much easier than to those, was just looking for a plausible explanation, that's all, was assuming someone else had seen the same issue.
Thanks guys for the info.
Scott
Can't be the cue ball, same cue ball and balls in other rooms on other tables.
Can't be humidity, it's humid in every room here, and more so in other rooms actually, especially one where the AC doesn't work so well. Tables play "normal" there, no issues.
Has to be something about these particular Diamonds - hardened rubber, different rubber, improperly installed rubber, etc. Hard to believe, but yet true.
And to owll - not sure who you are, since you didn't sign your name, but it's not the cue ball. That would imply that measles cue balls would play faster everywhere, but again they don't. There is nothing different about the tables other than the tables themselves, equipment and environmental factors are similar everywhere in town.
I'm pretty sure most people don't love the tables. Talked with Butch, Larry, Bowflex, and a number of the other top players, they've simply acknowledged the differences and adapted their game to them. They've also agreed that when playing on other Diamonds at the larger tourneys or in other rooms that they don't play the same. I guess if I played there more often, instead of 1 or 2 tourneys a year, I would adapt as well. Just frustrating that I can calibrate to other tables so much easier than to those, was just looking for a plausible explanation, that's all, was assuming someone else had seen the same issue.
Thanks guys for the info.
Scott
perfectpocketz
Banned
We all know that humidity effects tables....but that's all you ever hear....the humidity card played over and over.
Maybe it's time to look at the real problem.....balls that bank on a diamond with Artemis or diamond black wont bank on most any other table.
What's the answer for that?
Address the problem....fix it.....and move on.
Myself...I believe the cushions are the problem.....not the table.
The blue plays a little better than the red label....but not even close to what needs to be done.
Glen....I'm not fighting with you...I'm just calling it the way I see it....these threads keep coming on this subject every other month.
Figure out the problem....and fix it....all the rail guys on here and not one can figure out the fix.
I gave you my fix......different cushions... With the correct bevel....sub rail height and cushion nose height.
Everyone could have been way past this subject a long time ago.
If I worked for Diamond or did work for them....I would have had it changed and forgotten years ago.
Any table can play really great....with the right cushions and the right bolt system.
Diamond has the best rail bolt system...now just one more adlustment to the cushions and the table should play as well or better than any table on the market today.
This (IMO) doesn't make everything I have just stated true.
But I honestly believe I'm 100% correct.
Mark Gregory
Maybe it's time to look at the real problem.....balls that bank on a diamond with Artemis or diamond black wont bank on most any other table.
What's the answer for that?
Address the problem....fix it.....and move on.
Myself...I believe the cushions are the problem.....not the table.
The blue plays a little better than the red label....but not even close to what needs to be done.
Glen....I'm not fighting with you...I'm just calling it the way I see it....these threads keep coming on this subject every other month.
Figure out the problem....and fix it....all the rail guys on here and not one can figure out the fix.
I gave you my fix......different cushions... With the correct bevel....sub rail height and cushion nose height.
Everyone could have been way past this subject a long time ago.
If I worked for Diamond or did work for them....I would have had it changed and forgotten years ago.
Any table can play really great....with the right cushions and the right bolt system.
Diamond has the best rail bolt system...now just one more adlustment to the cushions and the table should play as well or better than any table on the market today.
This (IMO) doesn't make everything I have just stated true.
But I honestly believe I'm 100% correct.
Mark Gregory
Not disagreeing with you mark, but for now...all table manufactures are at the mercy of the cushion/cloth/ball manufactures of the world...for now anyway
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here, just asking a simple question. Is it not safe to assume that it is a sub rail angle issue? My GC has brand new Artemis cushions, new Simonis, and recalibrated sub rails, so if it was the cushion manufacturer wouldn't my table play springy too? It plays fast, that's what I was hoping for but it does not play springy like the Diamonds up here. I have not heard of people having this issue with their recalibrated or "Diamondized" GCs, at least not on these forums. What is different between the springy Diamonds and the good Diamonds and recalibrated GCs?
Is it not safe to assume that it is a sub rail angle issue? My GC has brand new Artemis cushions, new Simonis, and recalibrated sub rails, so if it was the cushion manufacturer wouldn't my table play springy too? It plays fast, that's what I was hoping for but it does not play springy like the Diamonds up here. I have not heard of people having this issue with their recalibrated or "Diamondized" GCs, at least not on these forums. What is different between the springy Diamonds and the good Diamonds and recalibrated GCs?
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here, just asking a simple question.
That would be correct, redesigning the sub-rails is what took place on the Blue label Diamond's, which is what Mark and I do, as well as a few other things to make the tables we work on play much better:grin: