Who's job is it to call a shark move?

[BRussell]

I think there's a genuine ambiguity here. I looked at my 2012-2014 BCA league rules again (sorry, I'd copy-paste more of it but I can't find an online version right now), and it's clear from 1-43 and 1-44 that a) unscrewing is a concession and b) it not only is loss of game but also gets you a warning the first time you do it and loss of the game plus an additional penalty game if you do it again.

However, 1-41 covers coaching. The ambiguity comes from the fact that part 1. says there is no "assistance in planning or executing any shot," which is pretty narrow and doesn't seem to me to cover this situation, but the other parts refer simply to "assistance" which to me does cover someone saying "hey, your opponent just conceded." APA rules, which from my limited experience seem to allow more input from teammates and coaches, may be different.

In the end, I'd say it may be a coaching foul, but it's also loss of game, so the coaching foul would be moot.

edit: I found the relevant parts online:

1-41 Coaching
1. During your match, it is a foul if you ask for, or intentionally receive, assistance in planning or executing any shot.
2. It is a foul if you receive unsolicited assistance from a spectator associated with you (e.g., spouse/partner, relative, teammate). “Assistance” includes being alerted to an opponent’s foul.
3. If you are not aware of an opponent’s foul, and you are alerted to the foul by unsolicited information from a spectator not associated with you, the foul is not enforceable but you do not incur any additional penalty.
Exception: In scotch doubles or team play, a violation of Rule 1.8, No Practice Allowed During Match, may be called on any member of the opponent’s team by any member of the offended team, regardless of whether they or the offending player are at the table or involved in a game. Other modifications of this Rule 1-41 concerning team or doubles play may be made by the Administrative Authority.
4. Any spectator not associated with you who offers any significant assistance to you, whether verbal or non-verbal, will be
interruptions or removed from the area.
5. The Administrative Authority of the event may modify this rule for team or doubles play. (AR p. 92)

--
1-43 Concession of Game
1. You must not concede any game at any time for any reason. “Concede” means that, as a result of any verbal or non-verbal action, you lead your opponent to believe that you are awarding them the game before its normal conclusion on the table. Before a game has ended, you must refrain from making any statements such as “good game”, etc., or any other verbal inference that the game is over or that your opponent is certain or likely to win. You must also refrain from any similar non-verbal action, such as putting away your cue or accessory items, beginning to mark a score sheet, changing clothes, retrieving or juggling coins or tokens, etc. Whether or not you have conceded a game is determined solely by the referee’s judgment.
2. If you concede a game, in addition to losing that game you will receive a mandatory warning against further concessions. A second violation results in the loss of the conceded game and an additional deduction of one game from your score (if you have zero games, your score would be "minus one game") and a final mandatory warning. A third violation results in loss of match. In team play, any member of the team may commit the second or third violations. (AR p. 92)
3. In the absence of any act by your opponent judged to be a concession under Rule 1-43- 1, you must not assume that your opponent has conceded the game. If you disturb the table in such a situation, then you are charged with a concession violation. (AR p. 92)
4. If you disturb the position of the table in an act that presumes the game is over before it is actually over, such as gathering balls together to rack the next game, you lose the game. (AR p. 92)

1-44 Concession of Match
When your opponent is on the hill, if you make a motion to unscrew your playing cue during your opponent's inning you lose the match. (AR p. 93)

 

[obclassicut]

what about removing your glove ? forfeit ?

 

[twal]

what about removing your glove ? forfeit ?

Bad comparison.
Read the rules, they say nothing about removal of gloves.
You take something that is pretty clear and want to act like all the rules are bs.

I would agree with the majority here. Once the game/match is over, by way of concession or not, it is over. You can say what you want.
If your opponent doesn’t know the rules, that is not your fault.
They on the other hand should learn them.

 

[blah blah]

Calling a foul, forfeit, sportsmanship, or rule violation isn't coaching.

Telling the shooter to play safe, shoot the stripes, or what particular ball to hit with what stroke/ speed/ spin is coaching.

The hazy ground would be asking what pocket your shooter called as a hint to remind them to call the pocket.

But no, calling a rule violation (breaking down a cue) isn't coaching out here.

 

[BRussell]

what about removing your glove ? forfeit ?

I'd say it depends on the context and how it's done, but it definitely could be. From above:

You must also refrain from any similar non-verbal action, such as putting away your cue or accessory items, beginning to mark a score sheet, changing clothes, retrieving or juggling coins or tokens, etc.

 

[BRussell]

Calling a foul, forfeit, sportsmanship, or rule violation isn't coaching.

Telling the shooter to play safe, shoot the stripes, or what particular ball to hit with what stroke/ speed/ spin is coaching.

The hazy ground would be asking what pocket your shooter called as a hint to remind them to call the pocket.

But no, calling a rule violation (breaking down a cue) isn't coaching out here.

From above:

It is a foul if you receive unsolicited assistance from a spectator associated with you (e.g., spouse/partner, relative, teammate). “Assistance” includes being alerted to an opponent’s foul.

From the above, I do think it's a foul to tell your teammate "hey he conceded." I like this:

In the future, the captain should run over to his player, high-five him and congratulate him for winning instead of telling him not to shoot.

dld

That's perfect, and avoids any isue of coaching. :thumbup:

 

[JuicyGirl]

Unscrewing the cue or congratulating the opponent are both methods of conceding a game. I doesn't matter who called it.

Loren

Of course it. And a handshake is the right move. Before leaving the table to unscrew. Pool will never climb out of the gutter when this behavior is allowed to go on.



JC

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 Windows mobile phone using Board Express

 

[blah blah]

From above:

(quote didn't copy)

From the above, I do think it's a foul to tell your teammate "hey he conceded." I like this:

(quote didn't copy)

That's perfect, and avoids any isue of coaching. :thumbup:

That makes sense- and now that I think about it, it's one of the main differences between our local BCA league and the way we play at BCA Nationals.

I think the original logic for the local rule difference was that having players, captains and co-capts able to announce rule violations made up for not having refs, and also limiting the power to just these people prevents team-on-team brawls.

 

[krupa]

1-41 Coaching
1. During your match, it is a foul if you ask for, or intentionally receive, assistance in planning or executing any shot.
2. It is a foul if you receive unsolicited assistance from a spectator associated with you (e.g., spouse/partner, relative, teammate). “Assistance” includes being alerted to an opponent’s foul.
3. If you are not aware of an opponent’s foul, and you are alerted to the foul by unsolicited information from a spectator not associated with you, the foul is not enforceable but you do not incur any additional penalty.
Exception: In scotch doubles or team play, a violation of Rule 1.8, No Practice Allowed During Match, may be called on any member of the opponent’s team by any member of the offended team, regardless of whether they or the offending player are at the table or involved in a game. Other modifications of this Rule 1-41 concerning team or doubles play may be made by the Administrative Authority.
4. Any spectator not associated with you who offers any significant assistance to you, whether verbal or non-verbal, will be
interruptions or removed from the area.
5. The Administrative Authority of the event may modify this rule for team or doubles play. (AR p. 92)

--
1-43 Concession of Game
1. You must not concede any game at any time for any reason. “Concede” means that, as a result of any verbal or non-verbal action, you lead your opponent to believe that you are awarding them the game before its normal conclusion on the table. Before a game has ended, you must refrain from making any statements such as “good game”, etc., or any other verbal inference that the game is over or that your opponent is certain or likely to win. You must also refrain from any similar non-verbal action, such as putting away your cue or accessory items, beginning to mark a score sheet, changing clothes, retrieving or juggling coins or tokens, etc. Whether or not you have conceded a game is determined solely by the referee’s judgment.
2. If you concede a game, in addition to losing that game you will receive a mandatory warning against further concessions. A second violation results in the loss of the conceded game and an additional deduction of one game from your score (if you have zero games, your score would be "minus one game") and a final mandatory warning. A third violation results in loss of match. In team play, any member of the team may commit the second or third violations. (AR p. 92)
3. In the absence of any act by your opponent judged to be a concession under Rule 1-43- 1, you must not assume that your opponent has conceded the game. If you disturb the table in such a situation, then you are charged with a concession violation. (AR p. 92)
4. If you disturb the position of the table in an act that presumes the game is over before it is actually over, such as gathering balls together to rack the next game, you lose the game. (AR p. 92)

1-44 Concession of Match
When your opponent is on the hill, if you make a motion to unscrew your playing cue during your opponent's inning you lose the match. (AR p. 93)

From the above, I do think it's a foul to tell your teammate "hey he conceded." I like this:

Rule 1-41 says it's a foul to tell a player that his opponent fouled.

Rule 1-43 does not state that it is a foul to concede a game. While I only scanned the rules regarding fouls, I did not see anything that defined conceding a game to be a foul.

Maybe someone more learned in BCA rules can clear that up.

If conceding a game is a foul as defined in the rules, then yeah, the coach can't say anything. Otherwise, concession is not a foul and the player can be told.

 

[BRussell]

Rule 1-41 says it's a foul to tell a player that his opponent fouled.

It says it's a foul to receive assistance, including being alerted to the opponent's foul; assistance is not limited to being alerted to opponent's fouls.

 

[JC]

It says it's a foul to receive assistance, including being alerted to the opponent's foul; assistance is not limited to being alerted to opponent's fouls.

You're confusing a concession with a foul. A concession is always loss of game and the only grey area is whether it's also unsportsmanlike conduct or whether the penalty ends with simple loss of game.

I am of the opinion that players who continually exhibit this type of behavior should have further sanctions up to and including not being allowed to play in the league. It's just a game and if you can't play it with honor then go rob a 7-11 instead.

JC

 

[BRussell]

You're confusing a concession with a foul. A concession is always loss of game and the only grey area is whether it's also unsportsmanlike conduct or whether the penalty ends with simple loss of game.

I am of the opinion that players who continually exhibit this type of behavior should have further sanctions up to and including not being allowed to play in the league. It's just a game and if you can't play it with honor then go rob a 7-11 instead.

JC

I don't believe I'm confusing them, I'm saying that 1. coaching/assistance, including saying to your teammate "hey he conceded," is a foul, and 2. unscrewing is a concession. And there isn't even any grey area on concession: According to BCA league rules, first time concession = warning plus loss of game. Second time = loss of game plus loss of a penalty game, including going into negative games.

Here's another way to put it: Is it a coaching foul to be sitting down while your teammate is playing, and call unsportsmanlike conduct (e.g., sharking) on the opponent?

 

[krupa]

It says it's a foul to receive assistance, including being alerted to the opponent's foul; assistance is not limited to being alerted to opponent's fouls.

Granted, but once a player concedes the game, the game is over.

Here's another example:

The game is 8-ball.
Player A pockets the 8-ball early.
Player B was distracted and does not see it.
Player B walks to the table and starts to take a shot when his coach says, "Player A dropped the 8 early, the game is over."

Do you consider that "assistance"?

 

[JC]

Here's another way to put it: Is it a coaching foul to be sitting down while your teammate is playing, and call unsportsmanlike conduct (e.g., sharking) on the opponent?

I don't think so if you are the team captain. Sharking needs to be met head on and nipped in the bud as quick as it's attempted. If two guys are playing and I'm on the outside watching then who cares? It's just a good show. I won't sit still and watch it in a team event though even if it means a confrontation.

I have said nothing and then watched it succeed one too many times in my life and it's shorter now.

JC

 

[BRussell]

I don't think so if you are the team captain. Sharking needs to be met head on and nipped in the bud as quick as it's attempted. If two guys are playing and I'm on the outside watching then who cares? It's just a good show. I won't sit still and watch it in a team event though even if it means a confrontation.

I have said nothing and then watched it succeed one too many times in my life and it's shorter now.

JC

Yeah I guess I agree with you. Just playing devil's advocate at this point, I think. :thumbup:

 

[CreeDo]

I don't believe I'm confusing them, I'm saying that 1. coaching/assistance, including saying to your teammate "hey he conceded," is a foul

- Pointing out certain info during the match is a foul.
- Pointing out a concession doesn't fall under this, because there is no pool match happening anymore.

Countless times in APA 9 ball, I've seen players shoot their game ball, and then one or both
team scorekeepers say "That's it". Or "That's game". Nobody has ever tried to label this "coaching".

What if the player shoots one more ball afterwards? What if he taps the cue ball?
What if he unscrews his own cue? None of that matters. The game is over.
You cannot foul when there's no match happening. Any more than you can foul before it begins.

 

[BRussell]

- Pointing out certain info during the match is a foul.
- Pointing out a concession doesn't fall under this, because there is no pool match happening anymore.

Countless times in APA 9 ball, I've seen players shoot their game ball, and then one or both
team scorekeepers say "That's it". Or "That's game". Nobody has ever tried to label this "coaching".

What if the player shoots one more ball afterwards? What if he taps the cue ball?
What if he unscrews his own cue? None of that matters. The game is over.
You cannot foul when there's no match happening. Any more than you can foul before it begins.

I basically agree, and if I were a ref I would rule it like that. I just think it's worth pointing out, since most of the other posters are saying the same thing as you, that there may be some reasonable ambiguity in the situation because of the clear no-assistance rule in BCA (APA seems different and may allow more input from non-playing teammates). If it happened in a BCA tournament, I wouldn't be surprised at either ruling if a ref was called over.

To give another analogy that I've seen come up a few times, it's a foul to stick your hand in the pocket, e.g., if the cue ball is coming towards it, even if it doesn't fall in and you never touch it. But it's loss of game if that ball is the 8 ball. If someone doesn't know that rule, and a teammate calls it, would you say the same thing? The player has to know the rules and know that means loss of game and call it. I'd say if he just gets up and shoots, the game continues. Do you agree?

I think that situation is a little different from unscrewing, which is well-known to be a dick move and deserves to be slammed, but I think the same principles apply, at least in theory. :wink:

 

[CreeDo]

To give another analogy that I've seen come up a few times, it's a foul to stick your hand in the pocket, e.g., if the cue ball is coming towards it, even if it doesn't fall in and you never touch it. But it's loss of game if that ball is the 8 ball. If someone doesn't know that rule, and a teammate calls it, would you say the same thing? The player has to know the rules and know that means loss of game and call it. I'd say if he just gets up and shoots, the game continues. Do you agree?

Nope, can't agree... If you do an "instant-loss" foul then the game is over.
Don't care if my teammate or my opponent gets penalized.
Don't care which person pointed out the foul.

Of course if NOBODY calls it, that's a different story. Sometimes fouls get missed
even with ten people watching the match. And sometimes players choose to let fouls slide.

So, here are two fun discussion questions:

1. If someone does an instant loss foul, and his opponent decides "I'm gonna let that slide",
can the opponent's team say "no, you can't choose to let it slide, it's loss of game and I'm calling it"?

2. If nobody noticed the foul, except me, and my teammate fouled, do I speak up and call it?

I think in the case of #1, the only way the game can continue is if both teams 100% agree to it.
If any single person wants to insist the game is over, then it's over. Even if it's not one of the players.

Because what happens if you try to fight them on it? They get the LO. They describe the foul.
The LO asks "did that really happen?" ...unless 10 people all decide to lie to him, they're gonna
admit it happened. The LO will then say "Then the game is over."

In the case of #2, that's a toughie. I'll call my own teammate if they do a blatant push foul
and I expect them to speak up if they foul and the opponent didn't notice. No sneaking around
and pretending it never happened and letting the opponent shoot the cue ball from where it lies.

But I've never called a teammate for an instant loss-of-game foul, especially if it's an obscure
and nitty one like the hand-in-pocket foul. I try to be honest but I'd feel like the biggest
diсkhead in the world if I'm the only guy in the room trying to end the match over that foul.

 

[cajunfats]

Concession

Rule 1-41 says it's a foul to tell a player that his opponent fouled.

Rule 1-43 does not state that it is a foul to concede a game. While I only scanned the rules regarding fouls, I did not see anything that defined conceding a game to be a foul.

Maybe someone more learned in BCA rules can clear that up.

If conceding a game is a foul as defined in the rules, then yeah, the coach can't say anything. Otherwise, concession is not a foul and the player can be told.

Concession is not a Foul. Concession is End of Game. No penalty arises from concession as there is no carry forward effect in the rules. The act of concession is a rules violation that has only one penalty. The game ceases at that moment, and any subsequent discussion has no bearing on the act. Once the player began to unscrew their cue,the game is over, and it doesn't matter who says what thereafter.

People overcomplicate the rules and that is why there is such a wide disparity in Leagues and Organizations.

It is really a simple rule and it is stated clearly in the posts above.

cajunfats
handled thousands of BCA Rules questions.

 

[3RAILKICK]

Foul? Concession? What would you do?

(alcohol is being served)

Handicapped 9b league, 4 man teams.

Player A giving the 8 to player B.

Couple innings in the books.

Player B shooting long cut shot to the upper corner on the 6. Misses the 6 to the corner but the 6 makes the 7 hanging in the side. (6 comes to rest in front of corner pocket, 8 in front of corner, same end and 9 in front of other side. CB down in the 6/8 end, in the open.

Player B starts celebration with teammates(minus their captain who was at bar). Player B comes over to seated player A and extends hand.

Player A, while watching the table, shakes hands.

Player B teammate gathers 6 and 8 to rack next game.

Player A calls 'foul' while shaking hands.

.....

The celebration slowed down.


....


Is it a foul? Was the game over? If so, why? Still B's inning till balls moved? Replace balls, nullify 'foul', B shoot hanging 6 and 8 to win?

Handshake can only mean congratulations on a win? Can it just be 'nice shot'-but there is more work to do? Is this unsportsmanlike conduct and loss of game by player A that trumps (group) error in celebrating a win before the game was over?

Player A's handshake meant game was over, or a move, taking advantage of player B's mistake about his money ball?

.......


If you are TD, what do you do?