Racking Issue with SVB at 8 ball US Open

KoolKat9Lives said:
Does anyone know if they make some sort of device to mark a ball so the Magic Rack can be moved? Perhaps a small cradle that goes partially around the ball?
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Ball markers are pretty standard at snooker and all the refs carry them. The marker fits snugly under the ball and then you can pick the ball up, clean it and replace it accurately. You only need to get it under one side of the ball, so that if the ball was up against the MR on one side it would not be a problem.

When two balls are touching or nearly touching, it's a much more complicated problem.
 
Rules

If a player accidently moves a ball is it his responsibility to tell his opponent? I can't find in the rule book where it states anything like that.

Also I don't see anything in the rule book that indicates that what Shane did was a foul. He accidently moved a ball, his opponent never said anything, so Shane didn't move it back. Now if Shane would have moved the ball back without his opponent telling him to........that would have been a foul.

Now you can argue a moral obligation until you are blue in the face, but I don't think Shane broke any rules???
 
dimeshooter said:
If a player accidently moves a ball is it his responsibility to tell his opponent? I can't find in the rule book where it states anything like that.

Also I don't see anything in the rule book that indicates that what Shane did was a foul. He accidently moved a ball, his opponent never said anything, so Shane didn't move it back. Now if Shane would have moved the ball back without his opponent telling him to........that would have been a foul.

Now you can argue a moral obligation until you are blue in the face, but I don't think Shane broke any rules???
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He was acting as the referee when he removed the MR. Referees can't foul. On the other hand, if a ball is disturbed, the referee is required by the rules to replace it as close as possible to the original position.

Of course the rules don't cover playing without a referee very well. It would have been better if a ref had been called over to remove the MR.
 
dimeshooter said:
If a player accidently moves a ball is it his responsibility to tell his opponent? I can't find in the rule book where it states anything like that.

Also I don't see anything in the rule book that indicates that what Shane did was a foul. He accidently moved a ball, his opponent never said anything, so Shane didn't move it back. Now if Shane would have moved the ball back without his opponent telling him to........that would have been a foul.

Now you can argue a moral obligation until you are blue in the face, but I don't think Shane broke any rules???
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They need to put rules in for the NR since almost every major tournament around the world use them. Johnnyt
 
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This is why I like WPA rules, if you touch any ball is foul. I can't understand the reason of the Fouls only at CB.
 
AlexandruM said:
This is why I like WPA rules, if you touch any ball is foul. I can't understand the reason of the Fouls only at CB.
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Because most of the time there is no ref, just a TD or 2 that also act as refs...if they are called before the fact. Johnnyt
 
nb92 said:
OK... he can jump out of the booth for other matches even if the other ref does not ask for help
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Maybe I read your response wrong, but no, he cannot jump out of the booth if he's not the official referee of that match and there's another referee there. If he's in some other capacity like official head-referee, maybe he can. But, I don't think that was the capacity that Ken was working as.

He can only jump out of the booth on fouls (like in some TAR matches) when the players and or production ask him prior to starting to be the referee. If he's not the referee, he's not jumping out of the booth. Sometimes, no referee has been established and a question comes up and the players then ask Ken. Then he'll jump out of the booth.

In a tournament like this US Open, if he's not the official referee, he's not jumping. Yes, it's that logical. He didn't jump out of the booth during the Dennis Orcullo jump shot foul.
 
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Ken the TD can do what ever the hell he wants. No one follows any kind of rules in pool even if there is rules for it. Johnnyt
 
The only thing in my OP that I did not see 1st hand was the Dennis practicing jump shot incident. I stated that I heard Ken came out of the booth on that one. I heard he told another ref about it, and that ref then called it. If that didn't happen that way its fine.

I did watch the match when Ken jumped out of the booth to tell Corey he was racking wrong. There's another thread all about that.

Whether the ball actually moved or not isn't really relevant to what my question was. The tourney director believed he saw a player move a ball that he thought had no pocket, and did not do anything about it.

There were quite a few times ken left the booth to be a ref during the 8 ball event. Sometimes on the TV table, sometimes not.

Also it really wasn't a difficult rack removal. There were many other times players moved balls to remove the rack during the event. On a few occasions when SVB's opponent wanted the rack removed that had balls on top of it. Shane would go to the table and lift balls while the other player removed the rack. Shane would then put the ball back.

I'm mentioning svb because he was on the TV table a ton during the 8 ball.

This match with Ko was SVB's most difficult besides the final. Ko played well. Got bad rolls on breaks, but probably played better in that match. He jumped out to an early lead, but got the cueball kicked in a few times on the break.
 
CantEverWin said:
During the 8 ball Us open match between SVB vs. Ko there was a bit of an incident using the Magic Rack moving a ball.
I'm not positive exactly which rack it was. It was before the score became tied at 4-4, but cant recall the exact game.
What happened was that SVB was up to break. Ken, and Scott Frost were in the booth doing commentary. Shane had a good break for a pretty routine out with the exception of the 8 ball. It seemed as if it hadn't moved during the break, and another ball ended up pretty close to frozen underneath it. (From standing behind the rack) SVB was walking around the table checking things out. As SVB was thinking ken made a statement that he "didn't believe the 8 ball would go anywhere." Frost then replied "I know it wont go anywhere." Ken stated "I cant argue with that then" in a laughing voice. Frost then made a comment that the 8 ball wouldn't go unless you moved it free while trying to remove the Magic Rack, as a joke. (Those were the only two balls still around the rack, and they were in the center of it. Not too much of a problem.
Within a second or two of Frost comment SVB ended up moving the 8 ball while removing the Magic Rack. Scott said instantly that Shane moved the ball about a half inch, and the 8 ball now has a pocket. Ken also stated he saw the ball move. Frost commented that Ko must not have seen SVB move the ball. Ken stated that he might have seen it and been too much of a sportsman to say anything. SVB did nothing, and said nothing. Maybe he didn't notice it move though he was paying close attention seemingly trying "not" to touch the balls. He proceeded to shoot and pretty easily run out.
Ken and Frost spent the rest of the rack pretty much talking about how much easier the run out is now with the 8 ball moved.


Now my question is this. What duty does a ref have if he sees a player move a ball "accidently?" I understand that the 8 ball tourney is cue ball fouls only, so I understand its not a foul. Usually the other players puts the ball back and so on. It just seems odd to me that Ken in other situation's, jumps out of the booth to "correct" other rules violations, but cant do anything about something like that. He jumped out of the booth to correct Corey's racking in a prior match. I also heard he was the one that called Dennis for trying that practice jump shot on another table. It just seems odd to me a ref can approach a player about breaking a rule like that, but he can witness another player move a ball and do nothing.

It very well may be that no one did anything wrong, but with more and more events using magic racks I could see this happening. It just seems like there should be some rules in the books that will let a ref who sees something occur do something about it.

PS I believe the rack occurred before the score went 4-4 only because I believe frost left the commentary at that time.
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Let us review:
  1. SVB cheats
  2. He does it on the streamin table with hundreds of people watching on their monitors and big sceen tv's
  3. He does it while it's being recorded for future inspection
  4. He does it while his opponent is watching
  5. He does it while 200 people are ringside watching

I know it's Vegas home of David Copperfield, Penn&Teller and Chris Angel but man this guy is in the wrong business.

Nick
 
Nick B said:
Let us review:
  1. SVB cheats
  2. He does it on the streamin table with hundreds of people watching on their monitors and big sceen tv's
  3. He does it while it's being recorded for future inspection
  4. He does it while his opponent is watching
  5. He does it while 200 people are ringside watching

I know it's Vegas home of David Copperfield, Penn&Teller and Chris Angel but man this guy is in the wrong business.

Nick
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And yet the ball moved and Shane is no Copperfield. :confused: Johnnyt
 
There are 3 very simple solutions to all of this racking BS Ive been subjected to for the past ??? years of my life....

Solution #1.... Have a Ref rack for everybody is the only way to handle this and Im surprised in an event of this caliber there aren't referees racking the balls :rolleyes:

Solution #2... Get rid of the Magic rack altogether!! It is raised and makes balls go off their natural path, alters rolls and moves balls (as in this argument) when taking it off the table. Im sorry to all MR sponsors or people on here that sell or distribute them.... They are faulty in all aspects mentioned above. Sad but true..

Solution #3... Use a template that stays on the table (Rack Tight, Slug Doctor) like the ones the used in the Japan Open a few months back. Never ever did I ever see a bad rack, balls moving or sliding due to going over the template and, most importantly, nobody having a b*tch fit over the rack. Plain and simple!!

So yeah... There you have it in a nutshell...
 
RunoutJJ said:
There are 3 very simple solutions to all of this racking BS Ive been subjected to for the past ??? years of my life....

Solution #1.... Have a Ref rack for everybody is the only way to handle this and Im surprised in an event of this caliber there aren't referees racking the balls :rolleyes:

Solution #2... Get rid of the Magic rack altogether!! It is raised and makes balls go off their natural path, alters rolls and moves balls (as in this argument) when taking it off the table. Im sorry to all MR sponsors or people on here that sell or distribute them.... They are faulty in all aspects mentioned above. Sad but true..

Solution #3... Use a template that stays on the table (Rack Tight, Slug Doctor) like the ones the used in the Japan Open a few months back. Never ever did I ever see a bad rack, balls moving or sliding due to going over the template and, most importantly, nobody having a b*tch fit over the rack. Plain and simple!!

So yeah... There you have it in a nutshell...
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As you know the only reason tournaments use certain rack is because they have to use the rack that sponsors them. Johnnyt
 
RunoutJJ said:
There are 3 very simple solutions to all of this racking BS Ive been subjected to for the past ??? years of my life....

Solution #1.... Have a Ref rack for everybody is the only way to handle this and Im surprised in an event of this caliber there aren't referees racking the balls :rolleyes:

Solution #2... Get rid of the Magic rack altogether!! It is raised and makes balls go off their natural path, alters rolls and moves balls (as in this argument) when taking it off the table. Im sorry to all MR sponsors or people on here that sell or distribute them.... They are faulty in all aspects mentioned above. Sad but true..

Solution #3... Use a template that stays on the table (Rack Tight, Slug Doctor) like the ones the used in the Japan Open a few months back. Never ever did I ever see a bad rack, balls moving or sliding due to going over the template and, most importantly, nobody having a b*tch fit over the rack. Plain and simple!!

So yeah... There you have it in a nutshell...
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Solution #2 and #3 are almost the same.

You're right that it is extremely rare for the templates to affect a rolling ball, but it does happen occasionally, particularly on slow rolling balls. For straight pool or one pocket I could see it being an issue, particularly.

The magic rack can at least be taken off the table, but as we know that in itself can present a problem.

For both products, the benefit of having a consistent rack that is fair to both players arguably outweighs the occasional snafu. Unless that snafu is witnessed by an AZBilliards member, in which case it will be the "What's wrong with pool" complaint of the day :D

I have a lot of old pool matches (videos) where they use wooden triangle racks, and a referee does the racking. Professional pool matches, where they made the nine-ball on the snap 5 out of 10 breaks. It was lunacy. Even 1 golden break due to an improper rack can be the difference in a match... and it shouldn't be.

Now we have magic racks and rack spots/slug doctor that eliminate that problem entirely. They aren't perfect, but damn if it isn't 100x more fair than it used to be.
 
Cornerman said:
... He didn't jump out of the booth during the Dennis Orcullo jump shot foul.
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From what I heard and saw on the stream I disagree and agree to disagree with you because that is not what you saw and heard.

But the other ref had yet to call a foul on Dennis until Ken said from the booth to the ref ... it is a foul, that is a foul....

it is what I saw and heard... I know you disagree with that and there we are... ;)
 
Johnnyt said:
As you know the only reason tournaments use certain rack is because they have to use the rack that sponsors them. Johnnyt
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Tournaments can choose to use whatever rack they want to. CSI uses the Magic Rack because the benefits to the event in terms of faster racking and less arguments are worth it.

I also think that the incidents where the balls are affected by the rack are seldom. This thread isn't so much about the rack as it is about the call, or lack of a call because there was a professional match with no referee. I can't think of other professional sports where there is no referee present during the final matches of a tournament. In fact I don't know of any professsional sports that I can think of where they don't have a referee for all the matches.

It shouldn't be on the player to have to deal with the balls at all in billiards when millimeters count.
 
nb92 said:
From what I heard and saw on the stream I disagree and agree to disagree with you because that is not what you saw and heard.

But the other ref had yet to call a foul on Dennis until Ken said from the booth to the ref ... it is a foul, that is a foul....

it is what I saw and heard... I know you disagree with that and there we are... ;)
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If you were listening to the stream, then you have no idea who called what since you could only hear Ken. Unless you had a line to Ken. Immediately. When it happened.

"But the other ref had yet to call a foul..." You heard him not call a foul over the broadcast? Could you entertain that he indeed called immediately it but you didn't hear him? A long-time national referee (John Leyman) that was standing right there specifically as the referee for the final match? Get a hold of John Leyman (Amsterdam Billiards) and ask him what happened.


Freddie <~~~ yes, I discussed with Ken
 
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cleary said:
Actually, nachos are what's wrong with pool.

cinco4.jpg
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i agree, they make hispanic people fat like me......
 
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