'Pendulum' Stroke 'Sweet Spot' ?

[Mikjary]

Yes, and I would bet that he has no thought what so ever to his elbow. The point of that is that it is not complicated or complex or contrived & does not take any conscious timing or even a thought to it. The focus is on moving the cue straight away & into the CB & it does not require a 'perfect' set up to execute as the whole movement of the cue & the tip is in a straight line. I guess I had better leave it at that.

Thanks for the acknowledgement as well as your other posts. I appreciate it.

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

I think Pettman has a long backstroke. If it was shorter, his elbow wouldn't drop slightly to maintain his piston type stroke.

I have a long backstroke, but my elbow raises slightly. I have a somewhat piston stroke with a pendulum finish. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think Pettman has a long backstroke. If it was shorter, his elbow wouldn't drop slightly to maintain his piston type stroke.

I have a long backstroke, but my elbow raises slightly. I have a somewhat piston stroke with a pendulum finish. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

Hey Mike.

As you know, it's all about what ever works for 'you'.

If it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it.

All the Best right back at Ya,
Rick

PS Since using TOI, my grip & stroke are evolving. I'm a little concerned about that. So, I'm trying to make sure that I maintain the ability to stroke it my 'old' way as well.

 

[Mikjary]

Hey Mike.

As you know, it's all about what ever works for 'you'.

If it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it.

All the Best right back at Ya,
Rick

PS Since using TOI, my grip & stroke are evolving. I'm a little concerned about that. So, I'm trying to make sure that I maintain the ability to stroke it my 'old' way as well.

My stroke has been tweaked since using TOI, too. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying new things. I discover potential weaknesses in my game sometimes. Mostly, I learn a little more about myself and what works for me.

This is a good thread for me because it made me think about what's really been the style of stroke I use. Never really thought about it until you brought it up. The interruption was a pisser, but if it can stay on track some interesting thoughts may still be had. Kudos to you!

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

My stroke has been tweaked since using TOI, too. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying new things. I discover potential weaknesses in my game sometimes. Mostly, I learn a little more about myself and what works for me.

This is a good thread for me because it made me think about what's really been the style of stroke I use. Never really thought about it until you brought it up. The interruption was a pisser, but if it can stay on track some interesting thoughts may still be had. Kudos to you!

Best,
Mike

Thanks for the kudos Mike.

I appreciate that.

I think everyone should understand that very different but still very effective grips & strokes do exist. Then after one investigates & understands the different parameters of them one can formulate their own opinions as to which stroke or aspects of a stroke one might want to pursue using. That way they will be responsible for their own stroke & game & not be dependent on someone else for making determinations that they themselves should make.

It's much like golf. One should know the differences between a fade & a draw & what the advantages of each are & then make their own decision as to which one they want to learn to execute. If they can do it on their own, fine. If they need to seek instruction to learn how, fine. But IMO they should make the decision for themselves as to what they want to learn to use, as it will be their swing & the results that they get will be dependent on how they swing the club. I'm sure you've probably heard a golf commentator say something like, 'he really owns his swing'.

I did not teach my son to hit the ball one way & tell him that that is how he is going to play golf. I taught him to hit the ball both ways & then let him make is own choice after I explained the advantages & disadvantages of each.

Pocket Billiards is not that different than golf. There are options as to how to play the game & how one holds the cue & strokes the ball are part of those options.

Naturally, all of the above are just my opinions.

I too hope that this thread can foster some good, thoughtful, interesting, useful, civil, & helpful discussion.

Thanks again & all the best to you,
Rick

 

[Ratta]

I think Pettman has a long backstroke. If it was shorter, his elbow wouldn't drop slightly to maintain his piston type stroke.

I have a long backstroke, but my elbow raises slightly. I have a somewhat piston stroke with a pendulum finish. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

Very good observation in my opinion Mike.

And the description about your own stroke-- for many good players that i know this would *nail it* how it looks like I like this sentence a lot!

lg
Ingo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Very good observation in my opinion Mike.

And the description about your own stroke-- for many good players that i know this would *nail it* how it looks like I like this sentence a lot!

lg
Ingo

Good Morning Mr. Ingo,

When we put the Brunswick Sport King in the garage & my Mother, who was a Grandmother of 12 at the time, wanted to play. I 'explained' to her to just take the cue straight back & straight into the ball. On some days I would not play her for a plugged nickel.

A very simple explanation of 'the stroke' worked quite well for that Grandmother.

All of the Best to You & Have a Great Day,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

More than 6,000 views. Is it a subject of interest?

The thread just went over 6,000 views.

Does that mean others have similar questions?

 

[Neil]

The thread just went over 6,000 views.

Does that mean others have similar questions?

Nah, just people looking over the scene of your self-destruction.

Went back through your posts to verify this was the thread you got banned in....geesh, Rick, 330 posts in the one month you've been back?? Must have really been chomping at the ol bit to get back on here, huh?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Nah, just people looking over the scene of your self-destruction.

Went back through your posts to verify this was the thread you got banned in....geesh, Rick, 330 posts in the one month you've been back?? Must have really been chomping at the ol bit to get back on here, huh?

I did not exactly self destruct. I just allowed myself to succumb to the baiting of the 'insults' that was resorted to by some.

I won't make that mistake again no matter how much nob, Sean, & you try to bait me.

Mr. Wilson made his point clear.

However, I might become frustrated & go back & delete ALL of my posts should I decide to leave. No... I would never do that because that would be a totally childish thing to do.

Have a Great Evening Neil.

And Nothing but Best Wishes to You,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

The thread just went over 6,000 views.

Does that mean others have similar questions?

Just to bump over Neil's taunting

 

[Neil]

Just to bump over Neil's taunting

Why the attitude, Rick? I just answered a question, and made an observation. Why do you have to get so mean all the time. Why do you always think you're omniscient and know what is in everyone else s mind?

To the others trying to learn something, sorry for the "misunderstanding", I surely don't want to be misunderstood. Well wishes to all!

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sorry folks.

Like a child, Neil wants to play & I don't.

 

[Mikjary]

Very good observation in my opinion Mike.

And the description about your own stroke-- for many good players that i know this would *nail it* how it looks like I like this sentence a lot!

lg
Ingo

Thanks, Ingo! Maybe, if I hit another million balls, I may be a good player some day.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

The thread just went over 6,000 views.

Does that mean others have similar questions?

Bumped again. Ya'll know why.

I think there's literally hundreds of different ways to stroke a cue ball. I've played guys that have such a pendulum stroke, you can't help but wonder how they do it so well. And I've played guys that look like a giant spasm every time they hit the cue ball.

Far and away, the piston style stroke with an elbow drop seems to be the most common denominator. Some push the cue ball, some stroke it. No two are the same. I think we need to use threads like this one to establish the correct fundamentals we can all agree upon.

Golf, tennis, and bowling are light years ahead of us in breaking down their strokes and identifying key points in establishing a foundation to build upon. Baseball is getting closer, but still keeps a lot of info (like pool) away from the up and comers.

It would be nice to have a consensus backed up with kinesiological support. We understand the table physics and some of the mental aspects. Let's keep working on the stroke.

Best,
Mike

PS- Were you this popular before you got here? :grin-square:

 

[CJ Wiley]

The tricep is the one {that I was taught} to develop

I think there's literally hundreds of different ways to stroke a cue ball. I've played guys that have such a pendulum stroke, you can't help but wonder how they do it so well. And I've played guys that look like a giant spasm every time they hit the cue ball.

Far and away, the piston style stroke with an elbow drop seems to be the most common denominator. Some push the cue ball, some stroke it. No two are the same. I think we need to use threads like this one to establish the correct fundamentals we can all agree upon.

Golf, tennis, and bowling are light years ahead of us in breaking down their strokes and identifying key points in establishing a foundation to build upon. Baseball is getting closer, but still keeps a lot of info (like pool) away from the up and comers.

It would be nice to have a consensus backed up with kinesiological support. We understand the table physics and some of the mental aspects. Let's keep working on the stroke.

Best,
Mike

PS- Were you this popular before you got here? :grin-square:

The time I spent working with the golf instructor Hank Haney was quite an awakening experience. Like Golf, the secret's in the hands, however, there's also a chain reaction of the shoulder, arm and especially the triceps.....common sense tells many people that the bicep is most important, but it's a decorative muscle and just "gets in the way" for the most part.

The tricep is the one {that I was taught} to develop and I now understand why. "Surfer Rod" and "Omaha John" understood this principle and passed it on to me.'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think there's literally hundreds of different ways to stroke a cue ball. I've played guys that have such a pendulum stroke, you can't help but wonder how they do it so well. And I've played guys that look like a giant spasm every time they hit the cue ball.

Far and away, the piston style stroke with an elbow drop seems to be the most common denominator. Some push the cue ball, some stroke it. No two are the same. I think we need to use threads like this one to establish the correct fundamentals we can all agree upon.

Golf, tennis, and bowling are light years ahead of us in breaking down their strokes and identifying key points in establishing a foundation to build upon. Baseball is getting closer, but still keeps a lot of info (like pool) away from the up and comers.

It would be nice to have a consensus backed up with kinesiological support. We understand the table physics and some of the mental aspects. Let's keep working on the stroke.

Best,
Mike

PS- Were you this popular before you got here? :grin-square:

Mike.

Thanks so much,

I fell asleep last night trying to compose a paragraph or two & woke up this morning trying to fine tune them. The reason was because of all of the grief I received yesterday from a few individuals.

Your post pretty much says what I wanted to say & for those reasons I feel that the path that the cue takes during the stroke should be the defining factor & not just one or two pieces of anatomy.

Some want to say that if one plays well with an elbow drop that they are doing so in spite of it. I would say that if one is playing well with a fixed elbow they are playing well in spite of it. My reasoning is due to the path of the cue stick & tip & not because of any anatomical activity or inactivity or any name given to a particular stroke. What ever gets the cue stick moving straight is the way to go IMHO.

I'll say it now, that IMO the goal should be to have the cue stick move in a straight line & if one can do that with a stroke that is officially classified as a 'fixed elbow pendulum stroke' then I am all for it.

To hit a golf ball straight one wants the club face 'square' for as long as possible before & after contact to decrease the chance for an error. In baseball, one wants the bat at the correct height on the ball & then aligned perpendicular to the ball path for the most power so as to not be hitting it with a glancing strike. Both of those require the timing of those functions. These types of concepts should be applied to the cue sports as well. The difference is that we are hitting with the end of the straight stick & not the side of it. Therefore we do not have to swing the implement on an arc as in golf, baseball, tennis, etc. We can simply pull the stick straight back & deliver it straight into & through contact. That should be the goal IMHO.

As I said, the goal IMHO should be to get the cue stick & the tip on the end of it to move in a straight line & I don't care what that stroke is called. In my 47 years of playing the game (opening for a slur by those that do that) I have never named or classified my stroke.

How about calling a stroke that moves the cue in a straight line 'The Target Stroke' or 'The Base Line Stroke'. (A piston moves in a straight line as it is contained within the cylinder. Maybe that is how & why that type of stroke got it's name or because the piston rod 'pushes' the head straight down the cylinder shaft.)

Personally I do not care what a particular stroke is called except when one is mis-categorized in a fashion that is misleading to the readers by an inappropriate association to that named stroke.

That is what I care about. I care about all those out there that are trying to improve. They should not even be unintentionally mislead.

Unlike how 'some' try to make me appear, I have not remained here to find something for myself. I have remained on AZB to attempt to help those looking to improve when ever & however I can. If promoting a straight moving cue has upset the status quo I can't really help that. Although that certainly never was & is not my intention.

Now like you suggest Mike, if one can play very well in spite of a fixed elbow pendulum stroke with the cue rocking up & down then that is all good& well for them & more power to them. I would just wonder what they would play like if they could get the cue to move straight. But...if ain't broken then don't 'fix' it.

So Mike, I agree with you, even if I am much more long winded & less concise than you.

To answer your question regarding my popularity. I was actually more popular before I came onto AZB.
Before AZB I only had one alcoholic friend of a friend that does not like me because I always tell him the truth. Here on AZB I have several 'enemies'.

Nothing but Best Regards & the Best of Wishes to you Mike,
Rick

PS I would like to thank Mr. Wilson. Having you in the back of my mind is helping me to delete certain phrases from my 'vocabulary'. Thanks.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The time I spent working with the golf instructor Hank Haney was quite an awakening experience. Like Golf, the secret's in the hands, however, there's also a chain reaction of the shoulder, arm and especially the triceps.....common sense tells many people that the bicep is most important, but it's a decorative muscle and just "gets in the way" for the most part.

The tricep is the one {that I was taught} to develop and I now understand why. "Surfer Rod" and "Omaha John" understood this principle and passed it on to me.'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ,

Shoulder?

Tricep?

Heresy I say! Heresy! :wink:

Thanks for the input.

Best of Luck with the Earl Documentary & ALL of your other endeavors,
Rick

 

[bbb]

The time I spent working with the golf instructor Hank Haney was quite an awakening experience. Like Golf, the secret's in the hands, however, there's also a chain reaction of the shoulder, arm and especially the triceps.....common sense tells many people that the bicep is most important, but it's a decorative muscle and just "gets in the way" for the most part.

The tricep is the one {that I was taught} to develop and I now understand why. "Surfer Rod" and "Omaha John" understood this principle and passed it on to me.'The Game is the Teacher'

im sorry but i dont understand why the tricep is so important??
its used to bring the cue backwards

 

[ENGLISH!]

The triceps brachii muscle (Latin for "three-headed arm muscle") is the large muscle on the back of the upper limb of many vertebrates. It is the muscle principally responsible for extension of the elbow joint (straightening of the arm).

Edit: The above is a cut & paste from an on-line encyclopedia & are not my words.

 

[pooln8r]

im sorry but i dont understand why the tricep is so important??
its used to bring the cue backwards

You are correct in that the triceps muscle is used to move the cue backwards but it
also plays a vital roll in stabilizing your upper arm when the biceps is active in the
forward motion of a pool stroke. The stability is both lateral(side to side) and also
vertical in coordination with the rear deltoids in your shoulder. The reason that a
slow back stroke can work so well for those who use it is, that by
purposefully engaging the triceps it adds even more to the stability of the
smaller biceps muscle in motion and additionally assists with the potential
energy being stored for release in your stroke. So a controlled slow pull back
is loading the triceps and biceps muscle with potential energy to later be
released as kinetic energy propelling the cue through the ball. The stability created
by the triceps helps to maintain control over the direction in which the biceps releases
that energy. The biceps and triceps work in coordination with each other and even in
strokes like Allen Hopkins that punch the ball with very little backward motion both muscles are
still playing their respective roles even though it appears to be mostly the action of his biceps.


Hope that makes sense and helps. Good shooting to you,

Kevin