Hey James,
It's all about trying to help each other out & 'bumming' a ride is not a bad thing. We've all done it at one time or another.:wink:
Shoot Well & Best Wishes,
Rick
Hand touching chest on draw shots
- Thread starter Kim Bye
- Start date
Hey James,
It's all about trying to help each other out & 'bumming' a ride is not a bad thing. We've all done it at one time or another.:wink:
Shoot Well & Best Wishes,
Rick
Steve,
Would I be correct to assume that you are using a SPF 'fixed elbow' type pendulum stroke?
If so, could you explain how the tip travels in a straight line & when & for how far with that type of stroke?
The reason that I am asking is that Bob Jewitt's comparison of a fixed elbow pendulum stroke to a piston stroke in which the elbow drops indicates that the tip is always moving on one of three(3) arcs during a fixed elbow stroke.
It also indicates that while the elbow does drop in the 'piston type' stroke the tip moves straight.
Thanks in advance for any bio-mechanical support that you can offer to counter Mr. Jewitt's findings.
Best Wishes,
Rick
There is a point at the bottom of the swing of a pendulum where it transitions from a downward motion to an upward motion. At that point, it is traveling level for a short time. One need only make sure they are at the bottom of the swing when the tip makes contact with the cue ball. The duration of contact is only about 2/1000 of a second, which is less than the transition time for your stroke.
Steve
Steve,
Thank you for your reply.
Do you have any support for the amount of time that it takes for a pendulum to transition from it's downward swing to it's upward swing as you say in your statement in bold above? I think that specific amount of time is infinitely small.
Here's the thing. As a pendulum rod swings, the object at the end of the rod/forearm transitions from swinging down to swinging up. That direction change is defined by the direction of the pull of gravity. It is swinging along it's arc in the direction of the pull/gravity & then due to the apex/elbow being fixed it changes to swinging along it's arc in a direction away from the pull/gravity.
The path that it takes is along an arc of a portion of a circle. At no time does it ever move in a straight line. It is constantly changing direction. At no two(2) points at all is it ever moving in the same direction that one could remotely refer to as a straight line. It changes from down to up in an instant & at an 'infinitely' small distance. At one(1) millimeter on one side of the arm/rod being perpendicular straight down it is arcing in a downward direction & then at one millimeter on the other side of the arm/rod being straight down perpendicular it is moving upward.
So... when, for how long, and for how far can the tip be moving in a straight line with a 'fixed elbow pendulum stroke' ? Since the tip stays in contact with the bridge it pivots & moves in the opposite direction of the pendulum swing. Hand swinging up/tip arcing down, hand swinging down/tip arcing up, hand swinging up again/tip arcing down again.
If the elbow is allowed to drop when the hand is at the bottom of the pendulum arc then the hand, cue, & tip could move in a straight line. But if the elbow stays fixed & the hand comes up then the tip must arc down.
Now I realize that we are not mechanical pendulums. What I am looking for is a bio-mechanical explanation to support the statement that the tip moves straight in a 'fixed elbow pendulum stroke'.
It has been suggested in another thread that it is the looseness of the 'grip' & the 'wrist action' that allows the tip to move straight but no real specific explanation of just how & when and for how long those might facilitate a straight line tip movement.
Without something to do so then the tip only moves parallel to the table bed for an instant & a miniscule amount of distance. To time that at precisely when the tip contacts the ball would require a perfect set up & a perfect execution of the pendulum swing AND even if ALL is perfect the tip would 'immediately' be arcing back downward while in contact for the 1/1,000 to 2/1,000 of a second of contact time.
Also, if it is the wrist action that would facilitate a straight line tip travel it would have to be what I see as a reverse action in the opposite direction of the arm swing. When the arm swings back the wrist would have to cock or hinge forward toward the bicep & then when the arm swings forward the wrist would have to cock or hinge backward toward the triceps. IMHO to coordinate & time that would be much more complex & difficult than merely allowing one's elbow to drop at the bottom of the arc so the hand, cue & tip can move in a straight line for quite an extended period that would be well through contact with the cue ball.
So, Steve, do you have any bio-mechanical explanation to support the straight line tip travel or are you merely expressing your belief, opinion or what you have been told. Steve, I mean no offense but quite a few have suggested what you have but with no 'real' 'specific' explanation.
Again I thank you for your reply & I thank you in advance for any further information that you might be capable of providing.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
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Jon,
It's not really 'level' that is important regarding one being precise with the hit. It is the straight line travel that lends itself to being precise. Place a baseball on a tee like for kids in tee ball. How would you feel more precise in trying to throw another ball to hit that ball on the tee? Would you rather try to hit it by throwing a straight ball or would you rather try to hit it by throwing a curve ball.
As we all should know it is very rare that the cue can ever be 'level' due to the rails & other balls on the table.
But to answer your question, it would really depend on how one is holding the cue. Take a cue and grab it like you would a golf club & there will be an angle between the forearm and the cue that is not 90*.
So, let me restate & say that if the cue was suspended parallel to the table bed one could take 'hold' of the cue with one's arm at a 90* angle to the cue.
So in the theoretical template, yes with the arm at 90* the cue could be 'level' or nearly level.
I would suggest that you hold your cue & then look at the angle of your wrist to get the cue at 90*.
So, okay, with the cue at 90* to the straight down arm...I'm 'listening.'
Best,
Rick
For the sake of the following explanation, we will assume at 90*, the cue is both level (as level as possible) and straight.
As shown in this crude diagram (courtesy Microsoft Paint), this is definitely possible.
Now for the fun stuff...
At 90*, when the cue is level and straight, is when contact occurs. It's that time that we can classify as the bottom of the pendulum. As discussed previously, the time the tip is in contact with the CB is minimal. As the hand rises and the tip goes down, the action has already taken place. Therefore making what happens post-contact irrelevant.
So even if the elbow drops slightly after contact, I believe one could still classify that stroke as a pendulum stroke, although not necessarily a "fixed-elbow" pendulum stroke.
I hope that answers your question here and in the pendulum sweet spot thread.
Jon
For the sake of the following explanation, we will assume at 90*, the cue is both level (as level as possible) and straight.
As shown in this crude diagram (courtesy Microsoft Paint), this is definitely possible.
Now for the fun stuff...
At 90*, when the cue is level and straight, is when contact occurs. It's that time that we can classify as the bottom of the pendulum. As discussed previously, the time the tip is in contact with the CB is minimal. As the hand rises and the tip goes down, the action has already taken place. Therefore making what happens post-contact irrelevant.
So even if the elbow drops slightly after contact, I believe one could still classify that stroke as a pendulum stroke, although not necessarily a "fixed-elbow" pendulum stroke.
I hope that answers your question here and in the pendulum sweet spot thread.
Jon
Jon,
Thanks.
But no it does not answer my question as the assertion was & is that the tip travels 'level' or straight for several inches. I do not see how that is possible with a fixed elbow.
Take your illustration & turn the forearm past the 90*. What would happen? The cue would actually turn too & point toward the sky.
Now we know that that does not happen because the wrist & the connection to the cue is not LOCKED at the 90* & the cue shaft stays in or on the bridge so when the hand comes up the tip is arcing downward & with a very good chance that it is in contact with the cue ball as it does. Now I have said on quite a few occasions that that might be okay for stop & draw shots but IMHO would not be so good for hitting high on the ball.
Please keep in mind that Bob Jewitt's charts of comparison between the pendulum & piston stroke also indicate that the tip arcs down, up & back down in a fixed elbow stroke while in the piston stroke the elbow moves but the tip travels straight. I & I doubt that any one that drops their elbow to get & keep the tip moving in a straight line ever give any thought what so ever to their elbow as when & how much to drop it. IMHO It is more of a byproduct of one's intentions to move the cue straight. Now byproduct may not be technically correct but my point is that there is no conscious effort to move it in a piston stroke as there is to keep it still in a pendulum stroke. So in reality which one is more simple. A lever is a simple machine but it requires two(2) parts, the fulcrum & the lever, one without the other is not of much use.
As in your illustration the fixed elbow pendulum stroke is dependent on a perfect set up to accurately strike the cue ball where intended especially if there is no several inches of straight line tip travel.
Even Neil agreed with me that a variation of just 2 or 3 millimeters is of significant importance when it comes to controlling the cue ball.
Let me ask you this. When you use the mechanical bridge do you rock the cue all over it so the tip moves down, up & back down or do you stroke it straight back & straight into the cue ball?
I hope you & others can see my points & my concerns where the fixed elbow pendulum stroke is concerned. But like Mike said some can certainly shoot very well with it. AND as I have also said, if someone can show me the bio-mechanics that would allow or make the tip travel straight for several inches, my opinion of it might change as there would be a wider margin for an error in set up etc. That has not happened as of yet. You would certainly think that it could have & would have been done by now & not for me but for all those that read here on AZB.
I don't get it...or maybe I do.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
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Sure, but that's totally missing the point.
The point being, that in a pendulum stroke, contact occurs at the bottom of the pendulum which is at 90* At 90*, the cue is level and straight.
I really hate to sound like a dick, but it's nobody's fault but your own if you can't understand.
Jon,
I totally understand that if the set up is perfect & the elbow stays perfectly still & does not move at all then the initial contact would be very near to intended if nothing else changes like the wrist angle, etc. As I have said many times it is a very simple concept. As I have also said simple does not necessarily always mean best. IMHO it is also a contrived method & is not the most natural way since we are hitting the ball with the end of a straight stick & not the side like in baseball, golf, tennis, etc.
Can you understand that in a pendulum the change of direction is immediately after perpendicular which means that the rod/forearm is swinging up & the tip is arcing downward 'immediately' & that probably means during contact.
Listen I have several issues with trying to play with a true fixed elbow. But the issue at hand is that an assertion was & is being made that the tip travels straight for several inches. My question is HOW. That has not been answered with any degree of clarity with any bio-mechanical explanation.
There were even two instructors in the other thread that basically agreed that any straight line tip travel was miniscule if at all.
If it exists an explanation should be simple. Bob Jewitt's chart does not show it. Something's wrong. Which is it?
Can I ask you why did you not answer my question about the mechanical bridge?
As I have said to you & in general if it is working for you to your satisfaction then that is all that matters. When Mike Siegel & I are shooting with english, cue ball squirt does not exist.
Best Wishes,
Rick
Would anywhere from 1 to 3 inches be sufficient for definition of several? I only ask because I think the length of time the cue travels straight in a pendulum stroke is strongly determined by other factors. Factors such as bridge length, and possibly even arm length.
Jon,
RandyG jumped in on the other thread to clarify that several is 2 or more. IMO 2 is a couple & more than 2 is several. But 2 is better than none.
RandyG's only attempt at an explanation was to say that the pendulum stroke is misunderstood by many & that it is actually more like a mini pendulum. I explained that a mini pendulum would be dependent on the length of the radius rod/arm & that a mini pendulum would actually have a greater slope over the same distance than a larger pendulum.
I think what you are referring to would effect the slope but there is no straight line travel in a true pendulum. Now again I know we are not mechanical pendulums but we are bio-mechanical & that is the type of explanation for which I am looking.
If you can explain to me that the tip is travelling straight for an inch before & after contact I think that that would be a good thing. Naturally longer would be better. Personally I still would not use that method because as I said to me it is not natural but is a contrived method.
IMO fixing the elbow in space causes more problems than allowing it to move. Sean posted a link of Judd Trumpp that show that he drops his elbow on every shot as the cue goes back to aid in keeping the cue 'level'. Sean says that that is his only elbow drop & that there is no 'J' in his delivery. For the most part that is the case but his hand does not come up to hit his chest & the elbow does drop a small amount from time to time & it did significantly to where there was a 'J' delivery for at least one shot that I can remember. I think that he stops the stroke short for the most part but when he has to let it out the elbow does drop. I've seen Alison Fisher do the same thing.
to me, the thing is that the elbow is only important if one is attempting to use a pendulum stroke. If that is the plan & the cue is taken away for that plan then it staying still until contact is important. But...if the cue is taken back with a different plan in mind then it is not important to keep it still.
To me the focus should be on moving the cue straight & not on any body parts.
I guess you are not going to answer my mechanical bridge question.
Best Wishes,
Rick
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For the sake of the following explanation, we will assume at 90*, the cue is both level (as level as possible) and straight.
As shown in this crude diagram (courtesy Microsoft Paint), this is definitely possible.
Now for the fun stuff...
At 90*, when the cue is level and straight, is when contact occurs. It's that time that we can classify as the bottom of the pendulum. As discussed previously, the time the tip is in contact with the CB is minimal. As the hand rises and the tip goes down, the action has already taken place. Therefore making what happens post-contact irrelevant.
So even if the elbow drops slightly after contact, I believe one could still classify that stroke as a pendulum stroke, although not necessarily a "fixed-elbow" pendulum stroke.
I hope that answers your question here and in the pendulum sweet spot thread.
Jon
Let's talk about the 90 degree angle for a minute because there is a pretty widespread misunderstanding about that. The position of the upper arm is directly related to how high or low the player is standing in their shooting stance. Players who stand low form an acute angle with their upper and lower arms at impact and not a 90 degree angle.
What I think you are trying to say is that the arm should hang down straight from the elbow at impact, as opposed to a slightly backward or forward angle.
Secondly, and unrelated to the 90 degree angle issue: If you believe that your cue is level when you bring the tip up to the cb as you address the ball, then it really doesn't matter where you place your back hand as long as you return it to that same position at impact.
The bolded is not based on any facts. The only, and I repeat only thing that matters, is that the cue be straight at time of contact.
I know that I tend to drop my elbow at times after contact, but I don't fool myself into believing it's because it does anything extra for the shot. And like I already said, I think a stroke can still be classified as pendulum with an elbow drop as long as contact occurs at 90* and the drop is after contact.
Tap Tap Tap.
very often kind of misunderstood this *topic*
hope you re doin good Fran,
lg from overseas,
Ingo
Jon,
The cue does not have to be 'level' at contact for every shot. In fact, as we all should know it can hardly ever be 'level' at contact due to the rails, balls, etc.
It's about the precision of hitting where one intends so as to effect the cue ball as intended. (Even Neil agreed that a 2 to 3 millimeter difference is certainly significant & important) IMO hitting a precise spot is easier to do with a tip that is moving in a straight line vs. one that is curving up & then almost immediately curving back down. Again, when you use the mechanical bridge, do you rock the cue so the tip goes down, up & back down or do you move the cue so it & the tip moves in a straight line?
In nearly every other sport one wants the implement to hit a ball to be moving straight into, through and beyond for the greatest margin for error. One does not hold a golf club between one's eye's & then chop down from there to it the ball down the fairway. One swings the club in a fashion that gets the head of the club on the target line before it hits the ball & while in contact with the ball, which results in it being on the line AFTER contact with the ball. The after contact with the ball is a result of what happened before & during contact with the ball.
Imagine trying to hit a baseball or a tennis ball by swinging straight down to the plate or the court. How large would your margin for error be with that method?
Some want to make the fixed elbow stroke out to be a method that all but guarantees hitting the cue ball precisely. If you would read a certain instructor's post in the 'sweet spot' thread, he basically said that all it really is is a method for a consistent set up. He did so in a long convoluted way so as to not come across as that being all that it is but basically that is what he said. I can certainly agree with that except for all of the situations that do NOT allow one to set up in their personal 'shot template'. Some will say that that is only about 10% of the time. I'd say that it is much more often than that & all that it takes is missing one shot to cost the game, match, trophy, money, or whatever. Also a consistent set up does not necessarily set one up for the best stroke. It merely sets one up consistently for the intended srtoke method.
My statement about a longer length straight line tip travel was in regards to room for error. If the tip only moves straight for 1/2 inch vs 6" obviously there is more room for error with the 6 inches of straight movement.
Like you said in an earlier post not to be a D--k, or offensive, but it seems that you & some others are trying to talk yourselves out of 'buyers remorse'.
As Fran sort of suggested if one sets up with the cue tip 'on' the intended contact point & returns it to that intended contact point it does not matter at what angle the arm is at contact.
I'll take it way out & say that if I turned my hand around & held the cue 'under handed' while standing tall & set up with the cue tip at the intended contact point & could return the tip to that point consistently then even it would be a good method.
I've made my determinations as to my stroke (I'll be 60 years old & have been playing since I was 13.) just as each individual should do for themselves after they have garnered as much objective information as to all of the different types of strokes that are available.
I've chosen to move my cue as consistently straight has possible. I think that that should be ones focus. I believe that almost anyone with any descent hand eye coordination can do the same without a contrived mechanism if certain road blocks are not in place.
I would think that a good instructor worth his or her salt, should be able to clear away any road blocks that one might have for a straight cue stroke before having to resort to a contrived method that IMO has less room for any error. However, as I have also said quite a few times, if for some reason one can not perform a straight cue type stroke & the 'fixed elbow pendulum stroke' is what they can do, then by all means that is what they should do. Whether they learn that from a book, DVD, internet, or a qualified individual like an instructor is up to them. Each individual is different & learns differently & prefers their own method of how they like to learn.
Personally I always liked the ability to ask the teacher questions as opposed to just learning from a book or dvd. I'm not talking about pool as I did not learn my game from a book, DVD, or teacher. I dug it out of the cloth like Ben Hogan dug his swing from out of the ground.
Like Fran said in an earlier post, it's good that you are willing to experiment.
Nothing but the Best of Luck with Your Stroke, Game, & Life,
Rick
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Mr. kidd,
Are you referring to digging it out of the cloth?
At least Mosconi had Greenleaf.
I only had an older gentleman that would not teach me anything. But he did set a good example & I 'stole' it all from him.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
if i remember my calculus correctly a curve/ arc could be measured as a series of small straight lines with different vectors and there was some formula we had to know to prove it
that was a long time ago and i could be misremembering
i think we will all agree a cueball or object ball is round
yet even tho its round its able to "rest" on its base implyong to me there is that one little flat spot on that round object
is it possible in that arc/round pendulum there is also that little flat spot??
i am not a bio mechanic or a professional instructor
that was a long time ago and i could be misremembering
i think we will all agree a cueball or object ball is round
yet even tho its round its able to "rest" on its base implyong to me there is that one little flat spot on that round object
is it possible in that arc/round pendulum there is also that little flat spot??
i am not a bio mechanic or a professional instructor