Hand touching chest on draw shots

Pool IS a Right AND Left sided game

bbb said:
i think the piston j stroke would end at the chest (from the combo of forearm bend and hand going forward)just as a pendulum stroke would (due to complete bend of forearm)
jmho
icbw
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When you put your left foot parallel to the "line of the shot" you will be open enough that this won't be an issue. I see many players not "care" how they set the left side of their body (by aligning their foot properly) and it leads to these concerns.

Pool IS a Right AND Left sided game, your feet are the foundation to this being correct and effective or incorrect and flawed. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
CJ Wiley said:
When you put your left foot parallel to the "line of the shot" you will be open enough that this won't be an issue. I see many players not "care" how they set the left side of their body (by aligning their foot properly) and it leads to these concerns.

Pool IS a Right AND Left sided game, your feet are the foundation to this being correct and effective or incorrect and flawed. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

thanks for the reply CJ
 
In all the years I've been playing competitive pool, I have never, ever, hit myself in the chest. Why would I ever want to do that to myself when I don't have to?
 
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FranCrimi said:
In all the years I've been playing competitive pool, I have never, ever, hit myself in the chest. Why would I ever want to do that to myself when I don't have to?
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Fran,

Neither have I, in all of my 47 years playing the game.

It must be a new fad.

All of the Best to You,
Rick

PS How is the clinic preparation going? I hope a road tour develops & New Orleans makes the schedule. You are certainly one instructor that I would certainly like to meet & spend time with discussing ALL that you know. Best of Luck with It.
 
Examples of pendulum stroke used in snooker

Although not entirely addressing the "griphand touching chest after delivery" theme, these do address the body's line-up over the cue, and how a pendulum stroke *IS* used with chin on the cue:

Notice at 1:40 how Dell Hill's son's chin is on the cue, and how his head rises to accommodate the natural rise of the cue during the pendulum pull-back:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gSK4w_9S_x0

Starting at the 2:00 mark (and at various points throughout the video henceforth), notice how pure Judd Trump's pendulum stroke is, with little elbow movement, and how his griphand ends up either touching his chest, or nearly touching his chest after cue delivery:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KZA67elaLPI

Judd is probably the best example of a nearly textbook example of a pendulum stroke used in snooker. (There's only a little bit of elbow drop during the pull-back as Judd tries to neutralize the rise of the cue from pushing his chin/head up, but the delivery of the cue after that is pure pendulum from the elbow -- no shoulder.)

-Sean
 
So...one has a four(4) point contact to keep the cue in a straight line & then one takes the cue back with a pendulum swing of the arm which raises the butt which in turn raises the head & eyes above the chin. So now, not only is the cue raising up & down but one's eyes are moving up & down during the shot. Sorry, not for me.

Also Judd is using a 'pendulum stroke' but with a moving elbow & his hand is against, not just near along side his chest.

Okay, whatever.
 
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Fran, you knew Gene well does this picture look like his hand is hitting his chest?



attachment.php
 
FranCrimi said:
In all the years I've been playing competitive pool, I have never, ever, hit myself in the chest. Why would I ever want to do that to myself when I don't have to?
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No one says you have to hit your chest. Just another method that some people, myself included, like to use.

That doesn't answer my question though.
 
That is correct, it is just the way you stop your cue at the conclusion of the stroke.

Mine stops just short of the right side of my pectoral because my arms have a bit of meat on them, and I am not as loose and flexible as others. :o




BeiberLvr said:
No one says you have to hit your chest. Just another method that some people, myself included, like to use.

That doesn't answer my question though.
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ENGLISH! said:
So...one has a four(4) point contact to keep the cue in a straight line & then one takes the cue back with a pendulum swing of the arm which raises the butt which in turn raises the head & eyes above the chin. So now, not only is the cue raising up & down but one's eyes are moving up & down during the shot. Sorry, not for me.

Also Judd is using a 'pendulum stroke' but with a moving elbow & his hand is against, not just near along side his chest.

Okay.
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Rick, what is your problem? That wasn't addressed at you (at all!), but the minute anyone mentions "pendulum stroke" you have to find a way to jump in and counter the post. I've never seen someone *so* lockjaw-fixated against something that is generally accepted to be standard foundational technique (has been, for decades). It's not to say it's exclusively correct and everything else is incorrect -- it's just boiling the muscle movements and motion down to its most basic form for simplicity and ease-of-troubleshooting reasons.

Man, you must be the Che Guevara of pool, or something. :)

-Sean
 
Remember if he hasn't seen it in 47 years of playing it must be a fad. :rolleyes:

Like TOI.




sfleinen said:
Rick, what is your problem? That wasn't addressed at you (at all!), but the minute anyone mentions "pendulum stroke" you have to find a way to jump in and counter the post. I've never seen someone *so* lockjaw-fixated against something that is generally accepted to be standard foundational technique (has been, for decades). It's not to say it's exclusively correct and everything else is incorrect -- it's just boiling the muscle movements and motion down to its most basic form for simplicity and ease-of-troubleshooting reasons.

Man, you must be the Che Guevara of pool, or something. :)

-Sean
Click to expand...
 
sfleinen said:
Rick, what is your problem? That wasn't addressed at you (at all!), but the minute anyone mentions "pendulum stroke" you have to find a way to jump in and counter the post. I've never seen someone *so* lockjaw-fixated against something that is generally accepted to be standard foundational technique (has been, for decades). It's not to say it's exclusively correct and everything else is incorrect -- it's just boiling the muscle movements and motion down to its most basic form for simplicity and ease-of-troubleshooting reasons.

Man, you must be the Che Guevara of pool, or something. :)

-Sean
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Sean,

My post was not directed at you. I was merely making a few observations of the video you supplied.

I don't want my eyes moving during the stroke.

And, by every 'definition' that has been thrown at me regarding a 'pendulum stroke' it involves a 'fixed elbow'.

Judd's movement is more of a 'scissors' action as he allows his elbow to move to aid in keeping the cue moving more straight, which IMHO should be the goal & not the raising & lowering as in a true 'pendulum' stroke with a fixed elbow.

Sorry if my observations upset you.

You have a great day & better tomorrows.
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Sean,

My post was not directed at you. I was merely making a few observations of the video you supplied.

I don't want my eyes moving during the stroke.

And, by every 'definition' that has been thrown at me regarding a 'pendulum stroke' it involves a 'fixed elbow'.

Judd's movement is more of a 'scissors' action as he allows his elbow to move to aid in keeping the cue moving more straight, which IMHO should be the goal & not the raising & lowering as in a true 'pendulum' stroke with a fixed elbow.

Sorry if my observations upset you.

You have a great day & better tomorrows.
Rick
Click to expand...

You are not watching the Judd Trump video closely enough. Watch the entire thing (they did a good job at giving the viewer full view of Judd's stroking arm during most shots).

The *only* time -- repeat, *only* time -- that Judd's elbow moves, is during the pull-back, to lessen the rise of the cue (and thus Judd's head/eyes over the cue). Watch his delivery -- watch how that elbow snaps closed like it had a rubber band pulling it closed. Notice it doesn't drop during delivery at all, compared to other examples of snooker or pool players. He doesn't involve his shoulder (to drop the elbow) at all. There is no "J" stroke there. I believe any of the SPF instructors would agree with me in classifying Judd's stroke as a classic pendulum stroke -- even with that slight elbow drop during the pull-back before delivery. It's the delivery that counts.

SPF instructors? What say you?

And by the way, it's interesting to see you use the word "scissor" when describing a moving elbow for the purposes of keeping the cue motion as flat as possible (a la Chris Melling). I wonder where that came from:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?searchid=11299364

You need to know that a pure pendulum stroke NEEDN'T have the cue rise and fall as much as you seem to think. The griphand itself absorbs a lot of the motion, with e.g. opening and closing the hand to neutralize some of that effect.

-Sean
 
Well for me, I don't classify strokes. I am not into naming them. I am more interested in measureing the consistency of delivery and working with the student to get consistent in their stroke.

The only time I will address an elbow drop is if the student wants to do so, and if the drop occurs prior to contact with the cueball. There are certion variables for me that I highly stress but that is for another thread, and have nothing to do with this.

Remember everyone is built differently and those structural differences do play a part in the arm movements.

If you watched video of me you will see some elbow drop, mostly because of the way my body is built, and the surgery that I had on my shoulder that had the ligaments rerouted. Holding my shoulder perfectly still for any length of time is painful.

Sometimes you gotta go with what God gave you.


sfleinen said:
You are not watching the Judd Trump video closely enough. Watch the entire thing (they did a good job at giving the viewer full view of Judd's stroking arm during most shots).

The *only* time -- repeat, *only* time -- that Judd's elbow moves, is during the pull-back, to lessen the rise of the cue (and thus Judd's head/eyes over the cue). Watch his delivery -- watch how that elbow snaps closed like it had a rubber band pulling it closed. Notice it doesn't drop during delivery at all, compared to other examples of snooker or pool players. He doesn't involve his shoulder (to drop the elbow) at all. There is no "J" stroke there. I believe any of the SPF instructors would agree with me in classifying Judd's stroke as a classic pendulum stroke -- even with that slight elbow drop during the pull-back before delivery. It's the delivery that counts.

SPF instructors? What say you?

And by the way, it's interesting to see you use the word "scissor" when describing a moving elbow for the purposes of keeping the cue motion as flat as possible (a la Chris Melling). I wonder where that came from:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?searchid=11299364

You need to know that a pure pendulum stroke NEEDN'T have the cue rise and fall as much as you seem to think. The griphand itself absorbs a lot of the motion, with e.g. opening and closing the hand to neutralize some of that effect.

-Sean
Click to expand...
 
sfleinen said:
You are not watching the Judd Trump video closely enough. Watch the entire thing (they did a good job at giving the viewer full view of Judd's stroking arm during most shots).

The *only* time -- repeat, *only* time -- that Judd's elbow moves, is during the pull-back, to lessen the rise of the cue (and thus Judd's head/eyes over the cue). Watch his delivery -- watch how that elbow snaps closed like it had a rubber band pulling it closed. Notice it doesn't drop during delivery at all, compared to other examples of snooker or pool players. He doesn't involve his shoulder (to drop the elbow) at all. There is no "J" stroke there. I believe any of the SPF instructors would agree with me in classifying Judd's stroke as a classic pendulum stroke -- even with that slight elbow drop during the pull-back before delivery. It's the delivery that counts.

SPF instructors? What say you?

And by the way, it's interesting to see you use the word "scissor" when describing a moving elbow for the purposes of keeping the cue motion as flat as possible (a la Chris Melling). I wonder where that came from:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?searchid=11299364

You need to know that a pure pendulum stroke NEEDN'T have the cue rise and fall as much as you seem to think. The griphand itself absorbs a lot of the motion, with e.g. opening and closing the hand to neutralize some of that effect.

-Sean
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A true pendulum does not swing from a moving apex. If the elbow has moved when the cue is taken back then the specific bottom of the 'projected' pendulum arc has just been changed. You now want to call a moving elbow a pendulum stroke. Let me ask, how many SPF instructors are teaching a moving elbow 'pendulum' stroke?

You act like the word scissors is a proprietary term. Don't infer anything. Say it outright. What are you saying is SO interesting that I used the word scissors.

You infer the same as was inferred regarding the 'pendulum sweet spot' concerning the grip. It's amazing how little info on that subject has come out during my year here.

Best Wishes to you,
Rick
 
Tony_in_MD said:
Well for me, I don't classify strokes. I am not into naming them. I am more interested in measureing the consistency of delivery and working with the student to get consistent in their stroke.

The only time I will address an elbow drop is if the student wants to do so, and if the drop occurs prior to contact with the cueball. There are certion variables for me that I highly stress but that is for another thread, and have nothing to do with this.

Remember everyone is built differently and those structural differences do play a part in the arm movements.

If you watched video of me you will see some elbow drop, mostly because of the way my body is built, and the surgery that I had on my shoulder that had the ligaments rerouted. Holding my shoulder perfectly still for any length of time is painful.

Sometimes you gotta go with what God gave you.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, Tony. In that post, I was trying to help Rick understand what is meant when the term "pendulum stroke" is used. He's under the pedantic impression that unless the elbow is "nailed up" and doesn't move *at all*, during the whole stroke motion, that's it's not a pendulum stroke. Obviously, a bit of leeway is given to physical limitations. And whenever I'm asked to give lessons or instruction, I'm not so fixated on the "classification" of the stroke either -- only if I see an issue where elbow drop is causing a problem, or if the student has no foundational stability at all (i.e. he/she is all over the place). Then, I'll recommend the pendulum stroke as an easy-to-replicate and easy-to-troubleshoot starting point.

Thanks for the input, and hope you're hitting 'em well!
-Sean
 
Thanks, I just started back playing again after taking off for just shy of a year, while I was working on all of those Cisco Certifications.

Played for 5 hours yesterday with Country Bob, some one pocket and 9 ball. It was nice to play and get in stroke again. But today my back, shoulders and feet are feeling the pain.

I have retired from my job on July 10, and I am starting a new job in Baltimore at the end of the month. I have a small apartment and will be coming home on weekends. If things work out, my wife and I will move closer to Baltimore in a year or two.
 
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