Question on bank shots and CIT

B

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
Please note that in the course of this thread I learned I used incorrect terminology in the graphics. Corrected graphics can be found later in the thread. Thanks.

Banking is the weakest part of my game so I'm trying to to increase my odds of success. Please let me know if my head is screwed on straight regarding bank shots and CIT. In the past I've only thought about CIT for non-bank shots (straight to the pocket shots).

In the pics below I've called a CB-OB hit "inside" if the CB is inside the triangle...and "outside" if the CB is outside the triangle.


Are the possible solutions I've listed (right english, more cut angle, decrease speed) correct? Any others?

w8fl.gif



Are the possible solutions I've listed (left english, less cut angle, increase speed) correct? Any others?

xo2p.gif


I've tried experimenting with these possible solutions at the table but I'm never sure if I hit/miss the shot because of a wrong solution...or just a bad aim.

Thanks.
 
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bdorman said:
... I've tried experimenting with these possible solutions at the table but I'm never sure if I hit/miss the shot because of a wrong solution...or just a bad aim. ...
Click to expand...
Then set the situations up as combination shots with about four balls and the "cue" ball the ball that hits the banking ball. If you use donuts or donuts on a piece of paper, you can test a lot of ideas.
 
In theory... yes, if you use the correct amount of outside spin it will cancel the undercut
caused by collision induced throw. The correct amount will change depending on cut angle, speed, etc.

By the way I think it's always considered outside when you do this,
because it's opposite the direction of the initial cut.
So if you're cutting a ball to your right (whether it's towards a pocket, or towards a rail for a bank)
then left spin = outside english.

But anyway, nevermind terminology, the main thing is... do you adjust your spin
or your aim to compensate for CIT? In my experience there are some banks where
you need quite a bit of spin to cancel the effects of CIT. So much that
it becomes a pain to shoot... the cue ball wants to swerve and deflect.

Even though I use a bank system where outside spin is used to keep the ball on "mirror angles",
For sharply cut banks like your first example... it's just easier (for me) to adjust
by overcutting the bank a hair rather than trying to find the right amount of compensating spin.

A good trick to figure out just how much CIT is throwing the ball: set up the cue ball on the head spot,
and set up the OB on the long rail, just 'above' the side pocket (so, on the side nearer your cue ball).
Maybe an inch from the rail.

To start out, set that object ball about 1 ball width away from the edge of the side pocket.
Now cut it with no english straight 'sideways' into the rail... no spin. Soft speed, center ball.
If CIT works like it does in my typical pool room environment, the object ball will throw forward
about 2 ball widths, so it goes straight into the opposite side pocket.
That will be your reference... crossing the ball from "about" 45 degrees = "about" 2 ball widths of throw.
It's more complicated than that, but it's a good starting point for a common crossbank.

HRJVIII.png
 
bdorman said:
Banking is the weakest part of my game so I'm trying to to increase my odds of success. Please let me know if my head is screwed on straight regarding bank shots and CIT. In the past I've only thought about CIT for non-bank shots (straight to the pocket shots).

In the pics below I've called a CB-OB hit "inside" if the CB is inside the triangle...and "outside" if the CB is outside the triangle.


Are the possible solutions I've listed (right english, more cut angle, decrease speed) correct? Any others?

w8fl.gif



Are the possible solutions I've listed (left english, less cut angle, increase speed) correct? Any others?

xo2p.gif


I've tried experimenting with these possible solutions at the table but I'm never sure if I hit/miss the shot because of a wrong solution...or just a bad aim.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

This shot is plotted 4 diamonds through 2 diamonds and is a perfectly divided angle considering the black line in the diagram. It is considered a Back Cut bank shot.

If it is shot pocket speed directly at the half way point it take some outside English to get it to split ..pocket speed means not hard, not medium, soft but not so soft it barely gets to the pocket.

In this case the cue ball passes the object ball putting spin on the object ball which could make it go short and the outside you put on it can assists the object ball to travel in positive way towards the pocket even after the drag that is caused by the contact with the rail.

Shoot the shot until you find the correct pressure and then shoot it several times. You are committing this type of bank shot to memory.

From now on you will know and remember the pressure it took to make the 2 to 1 angle or perfectly divided angle go in.

If you use low outside it will give you more positive spin toward the pocket......banks are awesome.


The second bank goes shot directly at the half way point and memorize the pressure it takes to make the shot.
IF you want to shoot the bank a little firmer then add inside English.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
The label appears to be wrong here. Inside english is right in this case.
Click to expand...

The example shown is using inside english to counter the CIT.

I called it "Outside Example" as an example of when the CB is "outside" the triangle. I'm sure there's another name for that; I just don't know what it is.
 
bdorman said:
The example shown is using inside english to counter the CIT.

I called it "Outside Example" as an example of when the CB is "outside" the triangle. I'm sure there's another name for that; I just don't know what it is.
Click to expand...
If you are cutting an object ball to the right, left english is "outside" and right english is "inside." The text in the diagram says "Use inside english (left)" and you are cutting the object ball to the right. Maybe you use a different definition of "inside" and "outside" than I do, but I think my usage is the most common.

The terms "inside" and "outside" have nothing to do with rails or where the object ball is eventually going. The only refer to whether the side spin helps the cut angle and/or cancels CIT (outside) or is the opposite (inside).
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you are cutting an object ball to the right, left english is "outside" and right english is "inside." The text in the diagram says "Use inside english (left)" and you are cutting the object ball to the right. Maybe you use a different definition of "inside" and "outside" than I do, but I think my usage is the most common.

The terms "inside" and "outside" have nothing to do with rails or where the object ball is eventually going. The only refer to whether the side spin helps the cut angle and/or cancels CIT (outside) or is the opposite (inside).
Click to expand...

Many thanks for the explanation Bob. I can't communicate if I don't know the lingo!

Is there a particular name for the type of bank when the CB is outside the triangle. I've heard it referred to as a Crossover Bank.

Another name for when the CB is inside the triangle? Backcut bank?

Thanks.
 
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Crossover (or usually just Cross-bank) is when the cue ball travels past the ball that got cut.

To use your 2nd example, it starts outside that triangle and after hitting the object ball,
continues plowing forward through the other side of the triangle. By passing through
that side of the triangle, it's "crossing" the path that the object ball eventually will take.

Often they cross paths at the same time and double kiss.

If you hit the shot in your 2nd example with lots of draw it may be possible to hold the cue ball
inside your triangle, so it never crosses that object ball's path. Then you wouldn't label it a cross-bank.

I think "Back-cut bank" is as good a term as any for your first example.
I don't know of any special term for it.
 
3 Challenging Bank Shots Demonstrating the TIP Banking System

bdorman said:
Banking is the weakest part of my game so I'm trying to to increase my odds of success. Please let me know if my head is screwed on straight regarding bank shots and CIT. In the past I've only thought about CIT for non-bank shots (straight to the pocket shots).

In the pics below I've called a CB-OB hit "inside" if the CB is inside the triangle...and "outside" if the CB is outside the triangle.


Are the possible solutions I've listed (right english, more cut angle, decrease speed) correct? Any others?

Are the possible solutions I've listed (left english, less cut angle, increase speed) correct? Any others?
I've tried experimenting with these possible solutions at the table but I'm never sure if I hit/miss the shot because of a wrong solution...or just a bad aim.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I cover 43 Chapters of Banking in the all new TIP Banking Secrets...The TBS teaches how to create the angles using your tip as a reference using "Inside" or "Outside" English.....we have an "ALL DAY PASS" available for under $5 at www.cjwiley.com ....some of the greatest bankers in history taught me this system and I use it to make ALL possible bank shots.

Here's an example of some REALLY tough banks using the TIP SYSTEM:

BANKING SECRETS SHOT #1

BANKING SECRETS SHOT #2

BANKING SECRETS SHOT #3
 
bdorman said:
Is there a particular name for the type of bank when the CB is outside the triangle. I've heard it referred to as a Crossover Bank.
Click to expand...
It's normally only a crossover if indeed the cueball crosses the bank path prior to the object ball.

Another name for when the CB is inside the triangle? Backcut bank?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
I use that name also.
 
CJ Wiley said:
I cover 43 Chapters of Banking in the all new TIP Banking Secrets...The TBS teaches how to create the angles using your tip as a reference using "Inside" or "Outside" English.....we have an "ALL DAY PASS" available for under $5 at www.cjwiley.com ....some of the greatest bankers in history taught me this system and I use it to make ALL possible bank shots.

Here's an example of some REALLY tough banks using the TIP SYSTEM:

BANKING SECRETS SHOT #1

BANKING SECRETS SHOT #2

BANKING SECRETS SHOT #3
Click to expand...

I have seen you mention a name before but is it possible for you to say how much of your banking and systems in general came from or were influenced by Vernon Elliott.
Just curious as I was able to very briefly spend some time with him and he tried to tell me some of his pool thoughts. A couple things were pretty out there for me at the time and in that short span I was not able to get a good grasp on what his thoughts were.
 
With new learning comes new responsibility, so it's not for everyone.

frankncali said:
I have seen you mention a name before but is it possible for you to say how much of your banking and systems in general came from or were influenced by Vernon Elliott.
Just curious as I was able to very briefly spend some time with him and he tried to tell me some of his pool thoughts. A couple things were pretty out there for me at the time and in that short span I was not able to get a good grasp on what his thoughts were.
Click to expand...

I played Vernon Elliott for 12 straight hours in Indianapolis Indiana at Tommy Statton's bar when I was 19. I had no idea who he was, but I quickly saw him use a style I was unfamiliar with and I had played and seen many of the top players including Sigel, Strickland, Hopkins, McCready, Hall, etc.

Vernon had a very powerful game and didn't spin the cue ball, but seemed to "stun, kill, and hold" the ball with incredible accuracy. This style was very intimidating and I set out to Incorporate as much of it as I could. I then ran with other players that used this style like "Omaho John",and "JR Weldon" who were also top notch "money players". This technique enabled me to win against any player on their "home table" and that's what I specialized in.

I've shown and told about how this style is used and many people have caught on, but it is advanced and takes practice. It takes 3 straight hours of experimenting before someone's mind will start to "real eyes" the benefits of playing like Vernon or myself....many people won't spend that much time with something totally unfamiliar like the 'Touch of Inside' (TOI) and I have grown to understand why. With new learning comes new responsibility, so it's not for everyone. 'The Game Will Be Your Teacher'
 
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Corrected graphics

The following graphics use correct terminology, as best I can determine. If they are still wrong please let me know.

wnf.gif




wpzj.gif
 
I don't believe CIT (actually, I think OP is referring to Collision Induced Spin) has as much of an impact as we tend to think (unless it's a really slow roll shot)...speed and draw seem to impact my banking much more. I've had great success using inside (really TOI, since that's what I use now) and all banks that aren't dead 2:1 ratio I allign with a half ball hit...I might adjust a little with the amount of inside but mainly with increasing/decreasing draw and speed to get the desired angle. Works VERY well for me and is easier to adjust with to meet the conditions of the table and balls. The only time I aim thinner is on REALLY severe angles, where the energy transfer available to the OB is so small.

The most powerful tool I use in banking is visualization. You should be able to see the path the OB will take coming off the rail before you pull the trigger...then it happens. The brain and all your experience interpolates the rest.
 
CJ Wiley said:
I cover 43 Chapters of Banking in the all new TIP Banking Secrets...The TBS teaches how to create the angles using your tip as a reference using "Inside" or "Outside" English.....we have an "ALL DAY PASS" available for under $5 at www.cjwiley.com ....some of the greatest bankers in history taught me this system and I use it to make ALL possible bank shots.

Here's an example of some REALLY tough banks using the TIP SYSTEM:

BANKING SECRETS SHOT #1

BANKING SECRETS SHOT #2

BANKING SECRETS SHOT #3
Click to expand...

Those are pretty sick CJ. I especially liked the third.
I remember a while ago a buddy showed me a pretty extreme backcut bank.
When he told me to hit it with inside I thought he was crazy. But got it within the first 2 or 3 tries that way.
The inside allows you to deflect into a thinner hit. Your brain doesn't want to aim there, but you can aim
a hair fatter with comfort, and then let the deflection take care of the rest. The spin doesn't hurt it since
the cut is so thin anyway.


A9Hvwq5.jpg
 
West Point 1987 said:
I don't believe CIT (actually, I think OP is referring to Collision Induced Spin) has as much of an impact as we tend to think (unless it's a really slow roll shot).. ...
Click to expand...
If there is collision-induced-throw, there is a corresponding amount of collision-induced-spin. You cannot have throw without object ball spin and vice versa.

Maybe the effects are not as large on bank shots as speed is in some situations, but they are plenty large enough to make a shot miss.

Here is a little known thing about bank shots: if the object ball is close to the cushion (a quarter ball or less depending...) speed has very little effect on the bank angle.
 
Bob Jewett said:
If there is collision-induced-throw, there is a corresponding amount of collision-induced-spin. You cannot have throw without object ball spin and vice versa.

Maybe the effects are not as large on bank shots as speed is in some situations, but they are plenty large enough to make a shot miss.

Here is a little known thing about bank shots: if the object ball is close to the cushion (a quarter ball or less depending...) speed has very little effect on the bank angle.
Click to expand...

That's because it will be sliding into the rail regardless of how, the speed, that it is hit, is it not?
 
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