hammer stroke

[sfleinen]

[...]
The bicep is a muscle that's looks good (maybe) but is more for decoration than strength, the tricep is best for that.
[...]

CJ:

Just FYI, you keep making this mistake. The muscle (singular) is known as the biceps, not "bicep." Likewise for that opposing muscle on the other side of the arm -- that's the "triceps," not the "tricep."

Please see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biceps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triceps

The ending "s" on the muscle name means that the muscle is actually a multi-"headed" muscle -- e.g. a two-headed muscle in the case of the biceps, and three-headed muscle in the case of the triceps.

In your documentation, please make this distinction.

-Sean <-- not trying to be a hard*ss, but don't want you to appear like Gomer Pyle explaining anatomy

 

[ENGLISH!]

CJ

Biceps are good for rowing a boat.:wink:

Is curling a barbell a sport?

Oooooops.

Pulling a bow string back....

but then you are extending the bow.

Best.
Rick

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

CJ

Biceps are good for rowing a boat.:wink:


Pulling a bow string back....

but then you are extending the bow.

[/I]

You obviously are no good at either of these activities if you think the biceps is a major player in these motions. :wink:

 

[Pidge]

I've seen how you grip your cue CJ and I can't grip it the same way. You do infact hold it exactly like a hammer and your wrist is cocked really far forward but I've never paid attention to the wrist uncocking, too busy watching the balls go in the hole

I on the other hand can't grip it the same way you do. The cue veers off to the right about an inch before contact. Can't stroke straight using this grip/ wrist position whilst using the stance etc as I do. Rather than change everything to accommodate my wrist ill keep my wrist as it is; the complete opposite of the hammer position.

 

[lfigueroa]

I've seen how you grip your cue CJ and I can't grip it the same way. You do infact hold it exactly like a hammer and your wrist is cocked really far forward but I've never paid attention to the wrist uncocking, too busy watching the balls go in the hole

I on the other hand can't grip it the same way you do. The cue veers off to the right about an inch before contact. Can't stroke straight using this grip/ wrist position whilst using the stance etc as I do. Rather than change everything to accommodate my wrist ill keep my wrist as it is; the complete opposite of the hammer position.

One of the major errors some folks make is believing that what works for them will work for everyone else.

It matters not whether we are talking about an aiming system or a wrist technique, we all develop our own personal reality when it comes to pool. Go to any major tournament and look around the room. You will see all kinds of grips -- from limp, to tight, to short, to long, to index and thumb, to pinky off, to cradle, to pronated wrist. Couple this with different stances, different head heights, different cue positions under the head, and on and on and you will see why what works for one may not (probably) won't work for all.

Lou Figueroa

 

[ENGLISH!]

You obviously are no good at either of these activities if you think the biceps is a major player in these motions. :wink:

You are correct.

I'm not a rower of boats & have not pulled a bow string since I was a kid.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I've seen how you grip your cue CJ and I can't grip it the same way. You do infact hold it exactly like a hammer and your wrist is cocked really far forward but I've never paid attention to the wrist uncocking, too busy watching the balls go in the hole

I on the other hand can't grip it the same way you do. The cue veers off to the right about an inch before contact. Can't stroke straight using this grip/ wrist position whilst using the stance etc as I do. Rather than change everything to accommodate my wrist ill keep my wrist as it is; the complete opposite of the hammer position.

Pidge,

When I tried it a while back, I had the same issue as you. But I said to myself that if CJ can do it & it works for him, it can't be this bad.

All it took was turning the hand/forearm a bit clockwise & the stroke straightened out & seemed to lock in. I'm right handed.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Pidge]

Pidge,

When I tried it a while back, I had the same issue as you. But I said to myself that if CJ can do it & it works for him, it can't be this bad.

All it took was turning the hand/forearm a bit clockwise & the stroke straightened out & seemed to lock in. I'm right handed.

Best Wishes,
Rick

Yeah I just can't do it. Well, I just don't want to do it. I've been using the same stroke, grip, stance, head position and wrist action since I was 6 that were all taught by one man. I'm not about to change any time soon

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yeah I just can't do it. Well, I just don't want to do it. I've been using the same stroke, grip, stance, head position and wrist action since I was 6 that were all taught by one man. I'm not about to change any time soon

Pidge,

I hear you.

In using TOI my grip & stroke has gravitated to an unintentional change. That is why at the end of a session, I always revert back to what I have used since I was 13. I want to make sure that I maintain the ability to use it as well as what TOI is making me gravitate to.

Best,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

just like everyone holds a fork differently, or a pen differently.

I've seen how you grip your cue CJ and I can't grip it the same way. You do infact hold it exactly like a hammer and your wrist is cocked really far forward but I've never paid attention to the wrist uncocking, too busy watching the balls go in the hole

I on the other hand can't grip it the same way you do. The cue veers off to the right about an inch before contact. Can't stroke straight using this grip/ wrist position whilst using the stance etc as I do. Rather than change everything to accommodate my wrist ill keep my wrist as it is; the complete opposite of the hammer position.

Yes, everyone grips the cue differently, just like everyone holds a fork differently, or a pen differently. There are some similarities, you want to create "energy" (to perform a task) at the "TIP" of the pen, fork and pool cue.

I can show this easily in person and it does apply to everyone's stoke because it's in the HANDS......the key to writing, eating and playing pool is not in the "big muscles", it's in the hands. Just like throwing a spear, everyone will hold the spear differently, however there is superior techniques when it comes to the release with the hands.

Those that need this will benefit, those that don't....won't....it's as simple as that.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Yes, you are getting the "message" by not seeking to cut off the messenger's head.

CJ, I don't think anyone is trying to cut off the messenger's head. However, some may be trying to trim it down in size a bit so it can fit inside a normal ten-gallon hat.:wink:

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, everyone grips the cue differently, just like everyone holds a fork differently, or a pen differently. There are some similarities, you want to create "energy" (to perform a task) at the "TIP" of the pen, fork and pool cue.

I can show this easily in person and it does apply to everyone's stoke because it's in the HANDS......the key to writing, eating and playing pool is not in the "big muscles", it's in the hands. Just like throwing a spear, everyone will hold the spear differently, however there is superior techniques when it comes to the release with the hands.

Those that need this will benefit, those that don't....won't....it's as simple as that.

CJ,

I was the pitching coach for a middle school before taking over the head coaching job when I then coached the team to the City Championship for the Greater New Orleans Area.

There was a pitcher that threw hard but his release of the ball was to turn his hand in a bit of a curve ball manner. He missed high inside, threw a strike, or missed low outside for right handed batters. He was right handed. After I worked with him & got him to keep his hand behind the ball by over correcting & having him turn his hand the opposite of how he was doing it, not only did his strike count go way up but he threw even faster than he did before.

After a bit of work he could make the ball tail right or left. After some more work he could make it tail in both direction with either an up or downward movement as well. Naturally he played high school & college ball. He was drafted by Houston but a minor league coach wanted him to throw a curve instead of his very good change up & messed up his elbow.

The point is that the 'release' can be vital just as it is important in golf and almost all other sports.

I know you know this.:wink:

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

the "champion's way" of stroking and specifically how the hand/wrist/forearm perform

CJ, I don't think anyone is trying to cut off the messenger's head. However, some may be trying to trim it down in size a bit so it can fit inside a normal ten-gallon hat.:wink:

So are you saying everyone likes a little head? :groucho: .... or no head at all?

I'm thinking about doing a video with Earl, Rodney, Corey, or Johnny JUST on the "champion's way" of stroking and specifically how the hand/wrist/forearm performs. They may have an issue with truly disclosing how it's done, but maybe I can find a way to persuade them.

 

[CJ Wiley]

they all know the secret to their own style of energizing this release towards.......

CJ,

I was the pitching coach for a middle school before taking over the head coaching job when I then coached the team to the City Championship for the Greater New Orleans Area.

There was a pitcher that threw hard but his release of the ball was to turn his hand in a bit of a curve ball manner. He missed high inside, threw a strike, or missed low outside for right handed batters. He was right handed. After I worked with him & got him to keep his hand behind the ball by over correcting & having him turn his hand the opposite of how he was doing it, not only did his strike count go way up but he threw even faster than he did before.

After a bit of work he could make the ball tail right or left. After some more work he could make it tail in both direction with either an up or downward movement as well. Naturally he played high school & college ball. He was drafted by Houston but a minor league coach wanted him to throw a curve instead of his very good change up & messed up his elbow.

The point is that the 'release' can be vital just as it is important in golf and almost all other sports.

I know you know this.:wink:

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

Yes, once someone's aware of the technique it's going to be obvious in sports and games.....it's in the hands because that IS where the release is....the "moment of truth"........ the "best of the best" in sports do this exceptionally well.....they know the secret to their own style of energizing this release towards the target.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I'm thinking about doing a video with Earl, Rodney, Corey, or Johnny JUST on the "champion's way" of stroking and specifically how the hand/wrist/forearm performs. They may have an issue with truly disclosing how it's done, but maybe I can find a way to persuade them.

Now that would be a worthwhile project for sure!

Make sure you get SloMo and his camera involved. He's proven he has the know-how needed to get the right angles, distances, and lighting setup. Plus, 300 FPS like they're using in ML baseball reveals a hell of a lot more than 30 FPS.

Also, it might be possible to use accelerometers on various joints and body parts to get the exact timing of their strokes figured out. Can't see how any of this would give away any big secrets. You'd still need tons of feel to get the timing down. Last I knew, that was something that just can't be filmed.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

You are correct.

I'm not a rower of boats & have not pulled a bow string since I was a kid.

Then why on Earth would you expound on the biomechanics of these activities of which you know nothing?


You know what, Rick? I got curious and went to look at your posts. Never done that before, so you can consider yourself honored to be the first.

You have posted 779 times since you got back from your two month vacation just six weeks ago. That's one post more than I have posted in the year and a half since I joined this place. That's over 15 posts/day... more than twice the average daily post count of JAM, one of our most frequent contributors. And I thought I posted way too much.

Think about it. Give yourself (and us) a break and lay off the keyboard unless you have something true and meaningful to add. Start a blog or something. This is getting really tedious again.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Then why on Earth would you expound on the biomechanics of these activities of which you know nothing?


You know what, Rick? I got curious and went to look at your posts. Never done that before, so you can consider yourself honored to be the first.

You have posted 779 times since you got back from your two month vacation just six weeks ago. That's one post more than I have posted in the year and a half since I joined this place. That's over 15 posts/day... more than twice the average daily post count of JAM, one of our most frequent contributors. And I thought I posted way too much.

Think about it. Give yourself (and us) a break and lay off the keyboard unless you have something true and meaningful to add. Start a blog or something. This is getting really tedious again.

When one pulls an oar to their chest at the end of the stroke what arm muscle is used?

When one pulls a bow string to their cheek, what arm muscle is used?

PS You can attribute this addition to the post count on you, not others.

PSS Since you mentioned Slo Mo video, may I assume that you have expertise in that field?

 

[CJ Wiley]

When you model a player you take something and incorporate it to what you are doing

One of the major errors some folks make is believing that what works for them will work for everyone else.

It matters not whether we are talking about an aiming system or a wrist technique, we all develop our own personal reality when it comes to pool. Go to any major tournament and look around the room. You will see all kinds of grips -- from limp, to tight, to short, to long, to index and thumb, to pinky off, to cradle, to pronated wrist. Couple this with different stances, different head heights, different cue positions under the head, and on and on and you will see why what works for one may not (probably) won't work for all.

Lou Figueroa

Yes, I agree that trying to "copy" other players is futile and I highly recommend NOT doing this practice. However, there's a significant difference between that type of "copying" and a desirable form of modeling used to learn new techniques and systems

On the other hand modeling what champion players do is very effective in improving. When you model a player you take something and incorporate it to what you are currently doing. I sometimes refer to this as "building a bridge" from what you (or someone else) currently do well to what you would like to do better.

I did this with Buddy Hall (positioning and pattern play), Earl Strickland (offensive shot selection), Efren Reyes (the No Spin Approach), Wade Crane (Breaking Mechanics/bridge/firmness of stroke) Tony Fargo and Vernon Elliot (Banking/Pivoting/TOI) Shane V. (Back Hand action on the break), Omaha John (TOI Floating the cue ball) Weldon Rogers (mechanics involved in one handed pool) and this list goes on if I want to get technical and really get specific....and that's not necessary.

The end result is my own game, my own style, and my own way of doing things. This is what I recommend to everyone I teach.....first I show them the "ideal model," then explain how to incorporate it into their own game. I don't use anything like the "perfect model," however I understand how to do the most effective model and the different variations used by various champion level players. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

When one pulls an oar to their chest at the end of the stroke what arm muscle is used?

When one pulls a bow string to their cheek, what arm muscle is used?

PS You can attribute this addition to the post count on you, not others.

PSS Since you mentioned Slo Mo video, may I assume that you have expertise in that field?

When one rows a Whitehall for 10 miles on a choppy bay, he will quickly become all too familiar with exactly which muscles are used in rowing said boat.

I suggest you look it up and become an Internet expert in yet one more field.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Yes, I agree that trying to "copy" other players is futile and I highly recommend NOT doing this practice. However, there's a significant difference between that type of "copying" and a desirable form of modeling used to learn new techniques and systems

On the other hand modeling what champion players do is very effective in improving. When you model a player you take something and incorporate it to what you are currently doing. I sometimes refer to this as "building a bridge" from what you (or someone else) currently do well to what you would like to do better.

I did this with Buddy Hall (positioning and pattern play), Earl Strickland (offensive shot selection), Efren Reyes (the No Spin Approach), Wade Crane (Breaking Mechanics/bridge/firmness of stroke) Tony Fargo and Vernon Elliot (Banking/Pivoting/TOI) Shane V. (Back Hand action on the break), Omaha John (TOI Floating the cue ball) Weldon Rogers (mechanics involved in one handed pool) and this list goes on if I want to get technical and really get specific....and that's not necessary.

The end result is my own game, my own style, and my own way of doing things. This is what I recommend to everyone I teach.....first I show them the "ideal model," then explain how to incorporate it into their own game. I don't use anything like the "perfect model," however I understand how to do the most effective model and the different variations used by various champion level players. 'The Game is the Teacher'

^ ^ ^
THIS!

It's one thing to try and be a clone, it's quite another to try to emulate aspects of someone's game and incorporate them into your own. Most learning in childhood comes via direct observation and attempted imitation. Nobody learns faster than kids.

Of course, if I could be an Efren clone I'd do it in a heartbeat.:wink: