CB last before shooting

B

bigskyblue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was recently informed about looking at the CB last, before shooting. I was told the both Johnny Archer and Ralf Souquet look at the CB last, before shooting. Also, the great Willie Hoppe advocated CB last before shooting.

I got the information about CB last shooting from a well known pro I talked with at Hard Times pool room in Belflower CA. He said that once you've locked on to your visual OB target, by way of the CB, placing all of your concentrating on the contact spot on the CB increases your CB placement control dramatically. You're no longer worried about making the shot. Your only concern now is getting the CB to go where you want it to go.

I've been trying the technique for about two months. I may be crazy, but I think I'm shooting with much more control, touch, and accuracy.

Has anybody else tried shooting this way??
 
bigskyblue said:
I was recently informed about looking at the CB last, before shooting. I was told the both Johnny Archer and Ralf Souquet look at the CB last, before shooting. Also, the great Willie Hoppe advocated CB last before shooting.

I got the information about CB last shooting from a well known pro I talked with at Hard Times pool room in Belflower CA. He said that once you've locked on to your visual OB target, by way of the CB, placing all of your concentrating on the contact spot on the CB increases your CB placement control dramatically. You're no longer worried about making the shot. Your only concern now is getting the CB to go where you want it to go.

I've been trying the technique for about two months. I may be crazy, but I think I'm shooting with much more control, touch, and accuracy.

Has anybody else tried shooting this way??
Click to expand...

I see you are pretty new at AzB. Have you learned yet how to search for past threads or posts on a given topic? This issue of OB last versus CB last has been discussed MANY times on AzB. So you might want to try to pull up some of the discussion from the past about it.

In brief -- the majority of good players are looking at some point on or near the OB when their tip hits the CB for most shots. Some good players are looking at the CB when they strike it. Quite a few good players look at the CB last only on certain types of shots -- such as break shots, jumps, masses, jacked-up shots.
 
AtLarge said:
I see you are pretty new at AzB. Have you learned yet how to search for past threads or posts on a given topic? This issue of OB last versus CB last has been discussed MANY times on AzB. So you might want to try to pull up some of the discussion from the past about it.

In brief -- the majority of good players are looking at some point on or near the OB when their tip hits the CB for most shots. Some good players are looking at the CB when they strike it. Quite a few good players look at the CB last only on certain types of shots -- such as break shots, jumps, masses, jacked-up shots.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. I'm was very pleased ti find out that others on AZBilliards
have come across this amazing breakthrough. Here's the AZBilliards link:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=304747
 
I look at the CB only when I shoot since the vector of the shot and other variables of the shot are decided already.
 
I have several DVD instruction videos and they all say that with your eye pattens you should look at the Object ball last.
Then Stan came up with look at the Cue ball until you shoot.
Amazing how a simple idea can differ between instructors. It kind of does make sense to look at the Cue ball last.
Cheers
 
gazman100 said:
I have several DVD instruction videos and they all say that with your eye pattens you should look at the Object ball last.
Then Stan came up with look at the Cue ball until you shoot.
Amazing how a simple idea can differ between instructors. It kind of does make sense to look at the Cue ball last.
Cheers
Click to expand...

Just to clarify my position.

There is no specific eye pattern requirement for CTE. It's ok to look at the OB or the CB last. In other words any typical eye pattern is ok.

It is a matter of choice as to how one splits their time between the CB and the OB.

Stan Shuffett
 
I don't think there are any set rules, but I agree on CB last. I always check the OB alignment before I shoot, but I do look at the CB last, as you say it helps to focus exactly where you are hitting the CB. This is especially critical on break shots and shots off of a rail when you have to hit with top, ie. when you have to hit the CB center very exact.
 
Eye pattern varies greatly between players. Stephen Hendry when he was down on a shot would look at the cue ball, then his eyes would switch between pocket and object ball, then at the pause on the back stroke he would concentrate on the object ball.

I approach the CB with my eyes locked on the part of the CB I want to hit, but when I'm down my eyes stay on the CB until I pause, then they switch to the OB. I look at the CB last when I'm breaking or when I'm hitting a shot hard. Don't know why but it works for me. I think with eye patterns its best not to think too much into it, and just do what comes naturally.
 
Pidge said:
Eye pattern varies greatly between players. Stephen Hendry when he was down on a shot would look at the cue ball, then his eyes would switch between pocket and object ball, then at the pause on the back stroke he would concentrate on the object ball.

I approach the CB with my eyes locked on the part of the CB I want to hit, but when I'm down my eyes stay on the CB until I pause, then they switch to the OB. I look at the CB last when I'm breaking or when I'm hitting a shot hard. Don't know why but it works for me. I think with eye patterns its best not to think too much into it, and just do what comes naturally.
Click to expand...

Agreed. When I'm playing, my eyes go where my subconscious needs them. Do what comes naturally, but do it consistently. If that makes sense.

On a normal shot, I see both balls when I pull the trigger.
 
The cb is the target for the cue stick. It helps the all-important "straight back and forth" on a typical stroke where obsessing over the target can cause the stroke arm to steer towards it and ruin the "straight back and forth".

However, using quiet eyes to look at the ob last can be great, too.
 
I have been studying the last look for many months now. I feel that is should be a fundamental which is taught consistently. I have found that just as this thread reflects that it is generally taught as a preference which means it can be done anyway you see fit.

These are my insights into the last look.

When I stopped looking at the cue ball last 20+ years ago I felt my performance improved. It was about the same time that I decided that clear vision wasn't as important as a clear mind and clear mental picture. So my improvement could be a result of either or both.

Fast forward to last year some time when I started trying cue ball last again.

My cue ball control is a LOT better while looking at the cue ball last. I use cue ball last a lot in practice. It exposes flaws I have in alignment and helps me stroke straighter since my eyes are on the stick's target.

But in competition I tend to use object ball last in most cases. Occasionally on special shots I will go with cue ball last. I attribute this to my lack of confidence in my setup. I hope in time to drop in with the faith of a CTE/Pro1 advocate and fire it in the back of the pocket while looking only at the cue ball! I do think that once tip impact has occurred that it is important to view the result of the shot so adjustments can be made.

This is a very important aspect of the game. I believe it is as important as the setup. I hope in time I will be able to prove my theory. Until then to each his own!

Ken
 
You raise some good exception cases - my statement should probably read 90% :)

Jumps and masses's for sure I look at CB last...I think :)

mohrt said:
Curious, that includes break shots, cueing off the rail, jump shots, masse shots, extreme draw shots?
Click to expand...
 
I guess it depends on a person. Before I really needed to look at the object ball but then CJ Wiley made me realize. If my stroke is consistent why shall I worry about the object ball? I mean if I know which direction to shoot and to what point to shoot and the object ball will be gone, and if my stroke is consistent, I better be concentrated on controlling my cue ball. If not, I better work on my stroke consistency.

However, I suspect people have different visions. Billiards is a funny thing, one needs to be aware of objects located at different distances, near-sight, middle-sight and far-sight (on long tables). Even getting eyeglasses is difficult for the pool table because of this.

So, probably it makes sense to choose what works best for a person. In my case I understand, if I cannot shoot consistently, nothing will help me to improve my game.
 
rubell said:
I guess it depends on a person. Before I really needed to look at the object ball but then CJ Wiley made me realize. If my stroke is consistent why shall I worry about the object ball? I mean if I know which direction to shoot and to what point to shoot and the object ball will be gone, and if my stroke is consistent, I better be concentrated on controlling my cue ball. If not, I better work on my stroke consistency.

However, I suspect people have different visions. Billiards is a funny thing, one needs to be aware of objects located at different distances, near-sight, middle-sight and far-sight (on long tables). Even getting eyeglasses is difficult for the pool table because of this.

So, probably it makes sense to choose what works best for a person. In my case I understand, if I cannot shoot consistently, nothing will help me to improve my game.
Click to expand...
The same can be said for both opinions; if you have a consistent stroke, and you align correctly in the first place you could shoot looking at the pocket, the broad behind the bar, eyes shut etc.

I'm of the opinion that there is no one target in pool. The CB, OB or pocket are not the target. Everything combined is the target; tip-CB-OB-pocket and tip-CB-OB-CB to final resting point. So I don't just look at one thing in particular.

I've tried looking at CB last on every shot and I can't do it. I mostly make the ball but position suffers greatly. I've played my way for so long that it feels similar to playing off-handed. I have a 1-2 second pause at the end of my back stroke which is vital for my timing and judging speed, and when I look at CB last I for some reason build up a lot of tension in my hand and arm during the pause and stab at the CB.

Your last paragraph pretty much hit the nail on the head. Learn to shoot consistently; stroke, stance, grip, head position, eye movement. It varies hugely between players, and even the guys at the top of the game. But the guys at the top do it consistently.
 
Pidge said:
The same can be said for both opinions; if you have a consistent stroke, and you align correctly in the first place you could shoot looking at the pocket, the broad behind the bar, eyes shut etc.

I'm of the opinion that there is no one target in pool. The CB, OB or pocket are not the target. Everything combined is the target; tip-CB-OB-pocket and tip-CB-OB-CB to final resting point. So I don't just look at one thing in particular.

I've tried looking at CB last on every shot and I can't do it. I mostly make the ball but position suffers greatly. I've played my way for so long that it feels similar to playing off-handed. I have a 1-2 second pause at the end of my back stroke which is vital for my timing and judging speed, and when I look at CB last I for some reason build up a lot of tension in my hand and arm during the pause and stab at the CB.

Your last paragraph pretty much hit the nail on the head. Learn to shoot consistently; stroke, stance, grip, head position, eye movement. It varies hugely between players, and even the guys at the top of the game. But the guys at the top do it consistently.
Click to expand...
Yeah. I suspect it depends on how vision or motor skills work for a person. Each person has their strengths and weaknesses and probably one way is better for someone than another.
 
Okie said:
I have been studying the last look for many months now. I feel that is should be a fundamental which is taught consistently. I have found that just as this thread reflects that it is generally taught as a preference which means it can be done anyway you see fit.

These are my insights into the last look.

When I stopped looking at the cue ball last 20+ years ago I felt my performance improved. It was about the same time that I decided that clear vision wasn't as important as a clear mind and clear mental picture. So my improvement could be a result of either or both.

Fast forward to last year some time when I started trying cue ball last again.

My cue ball control is a LOT better while looking at the cue ball last. I use cue ball last a lot in practice. It exposes flaws I have in alignment and helps me stroke straighter since my eyes are on the stick's target.

But in competition I tend to use object ball last in most cases. Occasionally on special shots I will go with cue ball last. I attribute this to my lack of confidence in my setup. I hope in time to drop in with the faith of a CTE/Pro1 advocate and fire it in the back of the pocket while looking only at the cue ball! I do think that once tip impact has occurred that it is important to view the result of the shot so adjustments can be made.

This is a very important aspect of the game. I believe it is as important as the setup. I hope in time I will be able to prove my theory. Until then to each his own!

Ken
Click to expand...

Looking at either ball shouldn't make any difference if the shot is lined up and the stroke is straight.

In other sports, where a ball is kicked or hit toward any target, the eyes are always on the ball last.

Does a field goal kicker look at the goal posts last? A golfer at the green? A tennis player at the net?

It isn't like throwing balls at a target. It's not lining up a rifle sight. It's hitting the CB with the cue tip.

Some can control the CB looking at the OB. If it's controlled by looking at the CB.... It doesn't matter.
 
the final "moment of truth," which is the moment of impact.

Ralph Kramden said:
Looking at either ball shouldn't make any difference if the shot is lined up and the stroke is straight.

In other sports, where a ball is kicked or hit toward any target, the eyes are always on the ball last.

Does a field goal kicker look at the goal posts last? A golfer at the green? A tennis player at the net?

It isn't like throwing balls at a target. It's not lining up a rifle sight. It's hitting the CB with the cue tip.

Some can control the CB looking at the OB. If it's controlled by looking at the CB.... It doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

In my opinion it matters a great deal....it's not like those other examples for a variety of reasons. The object ball is like the golf ball, the tennis ball, etc.(not the green or the net) - when it comes down to the final "moment of truth," which is the moment of impact it's beneficial to be connected to the object ball.
 
CJ Wiley said:
In my opinion it matters a great deal....it's not like those other examples for a variety of reasons. The object ball is like the golf ball, the tennis ball, etc.(not the green or the net) - when it comes down to the final "moment of truth," which is the moment of impact it's beneficial to be connected to the object ball.
Click to expand...

CJ - The examples of balls in other sports were used because each ball has to be hit or kicked near center.

Just as in pool each ball in any sport can purposely be made to deviate from the direction it was contacted.

Pros can make a golf ball fade or draw... but if they it hit too far off it's center it had better know how to swim.

Using a TOI, the CB deviates from the true direction it was actually hit. Does it matter if it was looked at last?
 
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