Ask me too

bbb said:
doesnt cj's TOI have you aim at the facing side (that you can see)of the pocket??
im not an instructor and dont use TOI
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Larry If you don't use TOI then why are you asking about it NOW.

I'll answer your question, but not for you but for everyone else.

IF one is using the form of TOI that CJ first 'explained' using 'our aiming' vs just CTC & CTE alignment, then you aim at the 'full hit' side of the pocket & use TOI to squirt the CB so that it adds cut to the shot so that the OB goes to center pocket. It is not always the facing that you can see.

I had not played for about 4 weeks & I started trying anythng to stop certain shots from rattling those pockets & was just letting it flow using TOI if that seemed right & MY english if that seemed right.

CJ has said you really can't mix it up because it will drive you crazy & I think he is correct.
 
i was visualizing a shot like the spot shot
a full or "fat" fat aim using toi would be towards the facing
if i understand it correctly
and not where you are subconciously aiming
i can now envision different angled shots where toi aiming fat or full would put youtowards the rail/tittie of the pocket
i brought this up because since if i assume correctly you are an advocate of toi
in my spot shot example you wouldnt be using toi aiming if that makes any scense
my only advice to your dilemma is when you recognize the type of shot you are missing you have to conciously force yourself to "overcut" it alittle
my 2 cents but what do i know?
 
bbb said:
i was visualizing a shot like the spot shot
a full or "fat" fat aim using toi would be towards the facing
if i understand it correctly
and not where you are subconciously aiming
i can now envision different angled shots where toi aiming fat or full would put youtowards the rail/tittie of the pocket
i brought this up because since if i assume correctly you are an advocate of toi
in my spot shot example you wouldnt be using toi aiming if that makes any scense
my only advice to your dilemma is when you recognize the type of shot you are missing you have to conciously force yourself to "overcut" it alittle
my 2 cents but what do i know?
Click to expand...

'Larry',

The shot you refer to can be shot with either of the TOI methods. You could us your aiming method & aim it just inside the full hit point & use a touch of inside to squirt the ball to add cut to pocket it in the center.

Or...depending on where the cue ball is CJ & others could align CTC OR CTE, again depending on where the cue ball is & use different amounts of inside to squirt the ball different amounts to pocket the ball.

The thing is to choose the ctc or cte alignment that would be an undercut.

I hope this helps your understanding of TOI.

No offense but your advice is simplistic & one sided as sometimes 'over cutting' a certain shot sends it too far into the 'high percentage' side.

Thanks for trying to help though.

Rick
 
I would not advise becoming an instructor....fyi

bbb said:
doesnt cj's TOI have you aim at the facing side (that you can see)of the pocket??
im not an instructor and dont use TOI
Click to expand...

the side of the pocket closest to the ball.....you should try.....toi....but I would not advise becoming an instructor....fyi
 
Fran, CB or OB last for Beginners?

Fran,

Is the answer one or the other?

Or would it be more prudent do suggest one or the other depending on the beginners individual talent & ability level, even though all are beginners?

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Fran,

Is the answer one or the other?

Or would it be more prudent do suggest one or the other depending on the beginners individual talent & ability level, even though all are beginners?

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
Click to expand...

I would suggest looking at the ob last to a beginner. But that's because it's my belief that looking at the ob last is the most logical and effective way to shoot. I would also make sure to explain to them that it's important for them to look back and forth between the ob and cb before shooting, and to make sure they check their tip position at the cb, and have their bridge hand secured, which is something you have to do anyway.

The exceptions to that would come later when the player gets past beginner stages, such as with some very close shots, jacked up shots, breaking (for some), as examples.
 
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Thanks for doing that, John.

You're a very talented player! Your speed control will come in time. You're such a strong shot-maker, so position hasn't been much of a priority for you because you can make tough shots if you get out of line. I'm positive that if you just continue to play you will figure out more position options. Study the great players and try to guess what you would do as you watch them, and then study their choices.

Your rhythm around the table and stroke rhythm are excellent.

Only one thing I want you to take a look at ---- and that is that you seem to be sighting your shots through the top of your eyes. Your nose is often pointed down towards your cue stick. Study the great players, like Efren, particularly where their nose is pointed. While you are seeing your shots very well, it's possible you might get eye strain or even tire sooner because of the way you are sighting your shots.

Just something to think about. Changing it may throw you off a bit for awhile. I'm not even sure if it's an issue but I think it can be in the future, especially if you play a lot.

I expect to see you in pro events in the near future.

Oh, and be careful about slowing down too much in competition. You are a rhythm player. You must always find your rhythm and trust it, or you will start to second-guess yourself.
 
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FranCrimi said:
Oh, and be careful about slowing down too much in competition. You are a rhythm player. You must always find your rhythm and trust it, or you will start to second-guess yourself.
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This is a gem. Something I struggle with all the time, but you've reminded me of my next issue to work out! Thanks Fran!:thumbup:
 
Thank you very much Fran. I really appreciate you taking the time to watch my video. Your words are very encouraging. I will remember what you said when I find myself not shooting to my standards.

I will experiment some with the head position as you advised.
 
FranCrimi said:
I would suggest looking at the ob last to a beginner. But that's because it's my belief that looking at the ob last is the most logical and effective way to shoot. I would also make sure to explain to them that it's important for them to look back and forth between the ob and cb before shooting, and to make sure they check their tip position at the cb, and have their bridge hand secured, which is something you have to do anyway.

The exceptions to that would come later when the player gets past beginner stages, such as with some very close shots, jacked up shots, breaking (for some), as examples.
Click to expand...

Fran,

Thanks for responding.

I have a follow up question. What if a beginner is having problems with hitting the CB as intended when looking at that OB last but has more success when looking at the CB during the stroke? What then?

Would you still suggest that they learn to look at the OB last.

The reason I am asking is because Mr. Jewett suggested the same as you in another thread, but, to me, that seems to be lumping everyone into the same pigeon hole.

I know from coaching many young people to adults that everyone can not successfully do everything exactly that same way(especially golf). We are individuals. Our bodies are different & our minds work differently.

I have looked at the OB during the stroke for 46 years while using english but when using TOI I naturally gravitated to focusing on the CB at least during part of the stroke since hitting with just that minute touch of inside is so important for the plan to work properly.

Personally, I would think that it would be the same way if one is trying to hit the exact center of the ball as well.

Thanks again,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Fran,

Thanks for responding.

I have a follow up question. What if a beginner is having problems with hitting the CB as intended when looking at that OB last but has more success when looking at the CB during the stroke? What then?

Would you still suggest that they learn to look at the OB last.

The reason I am asking is because Mr. Jewett suggested the same as you in another thread, but, to me, that seems to be lumping everyone into the same pigeon hole.

I know from coaching many young people to adults that everyone can not successfully do everything exactly that same way(especially golf). We are individuals. Our bodies are different & our minds work differently.

I have looked at the OB during the stroke for 46 years while using english but when using TOI I naturally gravitated to focusing on the CB at least during part of the stroke since hitting with just that minute touch of inside is so important for the plan to work properly.

Personally, I would think that it would be the same way if one is trying to hit the exact center of the ball as well.

Thanks again,
Rick
Click to expand...

Well, I think there is a different way to look at it, Rick. Let's say that a beginner is having difficulty hitting the cb where intended. Yes, you could have them look at the cb last and sacrifice seeing the distance between the balls as well as seeing how the cb hits the ob.

Or you can troubleshoot the issue that is causing the problem without having to make any concessions. It's clearly more difficult to troubleshoot the problem but I think it's worth it.

I don't see looking at the cb last as a playing choice, as others do. I think the trade-off is not worth what the player has to give up.
 
FranCrimi said:
Well, I think there is a different way to look at it, Rick. Let's say that a beginner is having difficulty hitting the cb where intended. Yes, you could have them look at the cb last and sacrifice seeing the distance between the balls as well as seeing how the cb hits the ob.

Or you can troubleshoot the issue that is causing the problem without having to make any concessions. It's clearly more difficult to troubleshoot the problem but I think it's worth it.

I don't see looking at the cb last as a playing choice, as others do. I think the trade-off is not worth what the player has to give up.
Click to expand...

Fran,

I understand what you're saying. The topic in the other threads is going back & forth & I think the word that is the defining word that needs to be defined is 'last'.

As I said in one of those threads I liked your explanation as to why the OB 'last'.

When I asked Mr. Jewett, my concern was more for a beginner that has not gotten nor perhaps might never get any formal instruction.

As you suggest, looking at the CB 'last' might be a band aide approach but I feel if doing so gives one a bit more success early on, it might keep someone from actually quitting due to constant futility.

I think one can still gauge the distance & speed before pulling the trigger & then focus on the cue ball when actually making the stroke. They may not see the cb/ob contact as well but the result of any miss will still give back some feedback.

I agree with you that if one's stroke can hit where intended then the OB last has advantages. I just think that for many beginners, that may not be the case & that perhaps by looking CB last with the focus so much on hitting it where intended that that alone might allow some intuitive improvement to a better stroke that might allow looking OB last a bit farther down the line.

Just a thought for those that are having trouble hitting the exact center of that round ball with a 3mm tip patch.

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS Thanks Again.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Fran,

I understand what you're saying. The topic in the other threads is going back & forth & I think the word that is the defining word that needs to be defined is 'last'.

As I said in one of those threads I liked your explanation as to why the OB 'last'.

When I asked Mr. Jewett, my concern was more for a beginner that has not gotten nor perhaps might never get any formal instruction.

As you suggest, looking at the CB 'last' might be a band aide approach but I feel if doing so gives one a bit more success early on, it might keep someone from actually quitting due to constant futility.

I think one can still gauge the distance & speed before pulling the trigger & then focus on the cue ball when actually making the stroke. They may not see the cb/ob contact as well but the result of any miss will still give back some feedback.

I agree with you that if one's stroke can hit where intended then the OB last has advantages. I just think that for many beginners, that may not be the case & that perhaps by looking CB last with the focus so much on hitting it where intended that that alone might allow some intuitive improvement to a better stroke that might allow looking OB last a bit farther down the line.

Just a thought for those that are having trouble hitting the exact center of that round ball with a 3mm tip patch.

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS Thanks Again.
Click to expand...

Sure, Rick. I think it would work as a possible patch. I'm always reluctant to recommend something temporary which would then require breaking a habit to change. I know that some feel it isn't necessary to change but I'm not in agreement with that.

I will give it more thought, though. Thanks for the ideas.
 
FranCrimi said:
Sure, Rick. I think it would work as a possible patch. I'm always reluctant to recommend something temporary which would then require breaking a habit to change. I know that some feel it isn't necessary to change but I'm not in agreement with that.

I will give it more thought, though. Thanks for the ideas.
Click to expand...

Fran,

For what they are worth you are more than welcome.

I am an idea guy.

If I had a partner to take some of my ideas to fruition, I'd be a monetarily rich man.

I may not be monetarily rich but I am rich in so many blessed ways, and not just Rich for Richard.:wink:

All the Best,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
I agree with you that if one's stroke can hit where intended then the OB last has advantages. I just think that for many beginners, that may not be the case & that perhaps by looking CB last with the focus so much on hitting it where intended that that alone might allow some intuitive improvement to a better stroke that might allow looking OB last a bit farther down the line.

Just a thought for those that are having trouble hitting the exact center of that round ball with a 3mm tip patch.

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS Thanks Again.
Click to expand...

Just a little different perspective on this topic. I am a strong believer in teaching looking at the ob last. However, in order for that to be effective, the player has to have a consistent stroke that will allow them to make contact with the cb where they intend.

I teach shooting in two phases. Phase one only uses a cue ball. I use training balls and have my students shoot the ball down the table, then pick it up on the return and examine it to see if they left the chalk mark where they intended. Once they are able to do that consistently, then it's time to move on to shooting at the object ball. They should be able to put that chalk mark exactly where they want to even with their eyes closed once they have developed a consistent repeatable stroke. You can't put the cart before the horse..

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
Just a little different perspective on this topic. I am a strong believer in teaching looking at the ob last. However, in order for that to be effective, the player has to have a consistent stroke that will allow them to make contact with the cb where they intend.

I teach shooting in two phases. Phase one only uses a cue ball. I use training balls and have my students shoot the ball down the table, then pick it up on the return and examine it to see if they left the chalk mark where they intended. Once they are able to do that consistently, then it's time to move on to shooting at the object ball. They should be able to put that chalk mark exactly where they want to even with their eyes closed once they have developed a consistent repeatable stroke. You can't put the cart before the horse..

Steve
Click to expand...

Steve,

I think I know how you are going to answer these questions, but I will ask them anyway.

I'm just curious, do you have any statistics as to what percentage the exact center vertical axis line is hit by a beginner after the teaching process with an OB is complete?

If it is an extremely high percentage then why do they mis shots?

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Steve,

I think I know how you are going to answer these question, but I will ask them anyway.

I'm just curious, do you have any statistics as to what percentage the exact center vertical axis line is hit by a beginner after the teaching process with an OB is complete?

If it is an extremely high percentage then why do they mis shots?

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
Click to expand...

Rick, question for you....you fancy yourself as a great pitching coach. Even better than the pro teachers that ruined your student. What percentage strikes did your beginner students throw? And, if an extremely high percentage, then why aren't they all in the major leagues??
 
As almost always you are wrong...again.

I do not think that I am a 'great' pitching coach, but I am a fairly good pitching coach.

I am certainly not a 'better' pitching coach than those in the majors, minors, or college. If I was I would be getting paid by one of those teams IF I would have pursued doing so as a career, which I did not.

The particular young man to which you refer was throwing about 35% strikes when he came to the middle school at which I was coaching. After I worked with him he wound up throwing strikes around the 70 percentile but that was subject to an umpires discretion so it may have actually been more...or less.

He went on to pitch very well in High School & was granted a College Scholarship. He pitched very well in College & was drafted by Houston & signed a rather high dollar contract. The pitching coach for the minor league team changed his curve ball motion & he wound up injuring his elbow & required 2 surgeries. His arm was never the same again. Obviously he did not make it to the Major League due to the injury. However a young man named Chad Gaudan did though & this young man was much much better than Chad at every level. I don't think Chad received a college scholarship & I don't think he was drafted either. However Chad's Father knew a few people as he was a minor league catcher.

If you do not know why so many extremely good ball players do not make it to the Major League then you know nothing about sports.

Now what does any of that have to do with whether or not it might be better to look at the OB last or the CB last?

I'm glad you're feeling better though & I have prayed that all would go well with your wife's surgery & I sincerely hope that all did go well.
 
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*This isn't directed at anyone specifically*

I look at the OB ball last on all shots. If you have to look at the CB last for accuracy purposes, then you probably don't have a good stroke.
 
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