The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart

[Mr. Bond]

Any more???

A Complete Hand-Book of Standard Rules [etc]
The Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. 1910


The Game of Continuous Pool

Page 59: (Rules of Play)

3. Before making a stroke the player must distinctly call the number of the ball he intends to pocket, and unless he does so the ball pocketed does not count for him and must be placed on the deep-red spot ; or, if that be occupied, as near on a line below it as possible. The player loses his hand, but does not forfeit any points, and the next player plays. Should he call more than one ball, he must pocket all the balls he calls, otherwise none of them can be counted for him...



8-Ball ( Previously Known As " B.B.C. Co. Pool " )

Page 121: (Rules of Play)

9. The rules of the American Pyramid Pool game, when not conflicting with the above rules, govern this game also.


American Pyramid Pool

Page 66: (Rules of Play)

2. After the opening stroke the player must call the number of the ball he intends to pocket...

Should the called ball not be pocketed, no ball pocketed on that stroke is
counted...

................................


Many of the popular games we play today began as call-shot games.

 

[YubaCushion]

Thank you. That is correct. That was the point I was making. You don't have to call every shot in golf. and we should not have to call every shot in pool either.

In golf if you tee off on the 7th, miss horribly and get a hole in one on the 8th it doesn't count. Just like it shouldn't in pool.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Many of the popular games we play today began as call-shot games.

I knew the history of Straight Pool. I did not know the history of Eight-Ball. It would be great to know when the rules switched to call the 8 only.

 

[lorider]

In 9 ball slop is built in. It was made that way. I don't like it, but that's the way it is and if I want to play it that's the way it goes. So that makes it OK. 10 ball is not that way. It is a call shot game. I read in a few places that's why slop counts in 9 ball because of the rule of having to hit them in order. If you know different, let me know. So no, I didn't contradict myself kid. Correct me if I'm wrong but 9 ball is the only game in the both the APA and BCA that slop counts.

you say it is ok in 9 ball because thats the way it is.
i can agree with you on that.

you see... i currently play 3 leagues a week. apa, bcapl format money league and napa.

they all 3 have different rules and i have no problem playing by those rules because thats the way it is. i just like playing pool and i have no problem playing by any set of rules " as long as my opponent and i are on the same page :.:smile:

 

[Mr. Bond]

I knew the history of Straight Pool. I did not know the history of Eight-Ball. It would be great to know when the rules switched to call the 8 only.

It's all good Paul - I was just 'keepin it real'

For what its worth, as I said before, I don't care either way. If it makes your patrons happy, then go for it. They're the ones paying the bills.

All the best -
DB

 

[AtLarge]

A Complete Hand-Book of Standard Rules [etc]
The Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. 1910


The Game of Continuous Pool

Page 59: (Rules of Play)

3. Before making a stroke the player must distinctly call the number of the ball he intends to pocket, and unless he does so the ball pocketed does not count for him and must be placed on the deep-red spot ; or, if that be occupied, as near on a line below it as possible. The player loses his hand, but does not forfeit any points, and the next player plays. Should he call more than one ball, he must pocket all the balls he calls, otherwise none of them can be counted for him...



8-Ball ( Previously Known As " B.B.C. Co. Pool " )

Page 121: (Rules of Play)

9. The rules of the American Pyramid Pool game, when not conflicting with the above rules, govern this game also.


American Pyramid Pool

Page 66: (Rules of Play)

2. After the opening stroke the player must call the number of the ball he intends to pocket...

Should the called ball not be pocketed, no ball pocketed on that stroke is
counted...

................................


Many of the popular games we play today began as call-shot games.

From what you cite, it sounds like all that was required was identifying the ball to be pocketed, not the pocket in which it was to be pocketed. If so, this does not support a contention of today's games beginning as call-shot games. Call shot means ball and pocket, not just ball.

 

[YubaCushion]

you say it is ok in 9 ball because thats the way it is.
i can agree with you on that.

you see... i currently play 3 leagues a week. apa, bcapl format money league and napa.

they all 3 have different rules and i have no problem playing by those rules because thats the way it is. i just like playing pool and i have no problem playing by any set of rules " as long as my opponent and i are on the same page :.:smile:

3 leagues a week?, and you probably practice too. Your gonna wear shoulder out. :grin:

 

[Mr. Bond]

From what you cite, it sounds like all that was required was identifying the ball to be pocketed, not the pocket in which it was to be pocketed. If so, this does not support a contention of today's games beginning as call-shot games. Call shot means ball and pocket, not just ball.

You may or may not be right about the definition of "call-shot" - I dont know.
(can this be cited to a reputable source?)
But either way - these games did not originate as "slop" games, thats for sure, and that was my only point really. What has happened to them since is of no great concern to me.

 

[AtLarge]

You may or may not be right about the definition of "call-shot" - I dont know.
(can this be cited to a reputable source?)
But either way - these games did not originate as "slop" games, thats for sure, and that was my only point really. What has happened to them since is of no great concern to me.

You need a reputable source for what "call shot" means ?!!!!?

From the General Rules of the WPA:

"1.6 Standard Call Shot
In games in which the shooter is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant. Only one ball may be called on each shot.
For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call.
In call shot games, the shooter may choose to call “safety” instead of a ball and pocket, and then play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot. Whether balls are being spotted after safeties depends on the rules of the particular game."

And, yes, naming only the ball but not the pocket still qualifies as "slop" rules, just as with 9-Ball -- you have to hit a particular ball first, but you can slop it into any pocket. [9-Ball slop also goes beyond that, of course.]

 

[Mr. Bond]

In that case, perhaps this will better get the point across

Continuous Pool Rules of Play



1897 Oliver Briggs catalog/rules page 23

 

[AtLarge]

In that case, perhaps this will better get the point across

Continuous Pool Rules of Play

View attachment 297350

1897 Oliver Briggs catalog/rules page 23

Well, that certainly is different from what you posted earlier. So that is for Continuous Pool, which morphed into 14.1 -- always a call-shot game as far as I know.

Do you have any additional info about 8-Ball or American Pyramid Pool? I have no reason not to believe what Cornerman wrote: "8-ball wasn't a call shot game in the BCA rules until 1985. And even then, it was "Optional." I think most people on this thread simple don't acknowledge this for some reason. 1925 is a documented ruleset that doesn't show a call shot. Original 8-ball (black ball, casino rules, whatever...) didn't have numbers on the balls to call."

 

[lorider]

3 leagues a week?, and you probably practice too. Your gonna wear shoulder out. :grin:

yea 3 leagues man. actually 4 nights a week. i play on 2 apa teams.

between holding down a job and playing 4 nights a week i hardly ever feel like practicing although i have a table at home.

sometimes i will make it a point to set up a shot at home that i missed at league and practice it until i get it right.

i do make it a habit to practice a couple of hours before i head to playoffs though.

 

[Mr. Bond]

From Foster's Complete Hoyle 1897

In this example (compiled from two pages) there is mention of both 15 ball and Pyramid.

15ball --> Chicago Pool --> Rotation
Pyramid --> BBC Pool --> 8ball



You'll notice that in the English Pyramid description they do in fact refer to the American games as "call shot", even though they are only requiring the ball to be called.

The thing is, if you go back thru the old rule books, its abundantly clear that they are trying to spell everything out in such a way as to prevent someone from profiting from 'accidental' or unintended shots.

Obviously they didnt always use the exact phrase " you must call every ball, pocket, kiss, carom, bank, etc" but then again, its probably because when you are playing the games at a higher level, it simply doesnt make sense to walk up to the table and blast away at just anything. Its much to risky to do so and I dont see anyone who is taking a game seriously even wanting to.

But for Paul's purposes - generating a fun and easy going experience for his casual players - it makes perfect sense to not enforce call shots or anything of the sort.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I guess that would make Cornerman correct. All games started out as slop games.. They did not have to call a pocket. There are six pockets to chance a ball in. I don't think it is relevant to this conversation but it is very interesting. Thank you very much for your research and info.

 

[Mr. Bond]

LoL
Well, not exactly Paul-
He said: "14.1..... did not have a pocket call as part of the ruleset at its earliest."
Which we know, from the example provided, is not the case.

I suppose it depends on ones perception of true slop, and call shot.
(Apparently Foster's Hoyle considered them"call shot" games)

Calling the intended ball is, in all reality, calling your shot. It is not a random play, and it establishes, at least in part, the target that you intend to hit.

And again, the point of me bringing it up was to appeal to one's sense of logic. Does anyone really believe, that in a game for stakes, or in a championship, that a player would simply shoot a ball with no intended target and hope for the best? Probable but highly doubtful. An act of desperation at best.

But its cool with me, Freddie can be right if you want him to be. I just don't happen to subscribe to the theory that, despite pages and pages of specific requirements for shooting established over decades of time, you could just shoot at anything, and have it land anywhere, and it was perfectly acceptable. Doing so violates everything that billiards is about.

 

[YubaCushion]

Allow me.

I will answer for Mr. Schofield.
Let me stick one finger in each ear and...NA,NA,NA,NA,NA,NA, Cant hear you.
I have a Pachinko tournament to run, bye.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Incidentally - Mike Shamos points out in his book* that the first tournament in which calling both the ball and pocket was required was held in 1884. Basically 101 years prior to 1985, and it was not optional.


Edited to add: And there was such a thing as Call-Shot 3Cushion




*The New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards

 

[Paul Schofield]

Calling the intended ball is, in all reality, calling your shot. It is not a random play, and it establishes, at least in part, the target that you intend to hit.

For our purposes, having six pockets for a ball to go is slop.

you could just shoot at anything, and have it land anywhere, and it was perfectly acceptable. Doing so violates everything that billiards is about.

It is acceptable for our most popular billiards games: Snooker, Nine-Ball, One-Pocket, Three Cushion Billiards, and Eight-Ball (untill the bar leagues took control of the rules in 85 or so).

Doing so violates everthing that billiards is about. Be careful with this one. A sport or game's popularity is fragile. Make changes, evolve in the wrong direction and it could spell lights out for our sport. These are fast moving times.

Billiards, first and foremost is recreation. IMO, that should be the first consideration when making decisions about the game. There are many problems with calling balls that negatively impact the pool playing experience. I am surprised no one has brought them up here. I have not because I simply say "It is more fun to play without the burden of having to call a lone ball, instead having multiple options, no matter what your skill level is." If this is true then everthing else does not matter.

 

[YubaCushion]

It is acceptable for our most popular billiards games: Snooker, Nine-Ball, One-Pocket, Three Cushion Billiards, and Eight-Ball (untill the bar leagues took control of the rules in 85 or so).

Doing so violates everthing that billiards is about. Be careful with this one. A sport or game's popularity is fragile. Make changes, evolve in the wrong direction and it could spell lights out for our sport. These are fast moving times.

Billiards, first and foremost is recreation. IMO, that should be the first consideration when making decisions about the game. There are many problems with calling balls that negatively impact the pool playing experience. I am surprised no one has brought them up here. I have not because I simply say "It is more fun to play without the burden of having to call a lone ball, instead having multiple options, no matter what your skill level is." If this is true then everthing else does not matter.

Why don't you put an extra cue ball on the table and have people shoot with two sticks at once while your at it. Or maybe strip pool....wait a minute, never mind I'm going to keep that one.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Here is the second rule change I made for my Eight-Ball tournaments:

No short games. The game is not over untill someone legally pockets the 8-ball.

So what does this mean? 8-ball on the break spots. Early 8-ball spots. Pocket the 8-ball on a bad hit and it spots. Incoming player can spot the 8-ball at either end. No three foul rule. Play the game out.

This is much more satisfying for the players.