The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart

[DogsPlayingPool]

Thank you. That is correct. That was the point I was making. You don't have to call every shot in golf. and we should not have to call every shot in pool either.

That's it, taking the first part of a sentence out of context and using it to make your point? Kinda sad.

To refresh your memory, the point I was making about golf is you do in effect call the shot(s). Everyone that stands on the tee is calling they are going to put this specific ball in that specific hole. The details of how you get there, just like a kiss or hitting the rail on the way in, are not important. Ball and pocket - very similar. If anything golf is more restrictive because the "call" is made for you by the rules of golf. You don't get to stand on the tee and decide which ball will go in what hole.

In any event, they are completely different games. Anyway, I'm more interested in hearing the specifics of how your 8 ball tournament has shown improvement and what it was like before you made the change. Some vague observation that the tournament is better and players are enjoying it more really doesn't mean anything. For example, you never addressed my question about how many APA league nights you have and how many APA players are (and were) playing in your tournament.

 

[Paul Schofield]

That's it, taking the first part of a sentence out of context and using it to make your point? Kinda sad.

To refresh your memory, the point I was making .......

Oh come on. Where is your sense of humor. I know what I did. I was laughing when I posted it.

 

[Paul Schofield]

"It is more fun to play without the burden of having to call a lone ball, instead having multiple options, no matter what your skill level is." If this is true then everthing else does not matter.

Then the question becomes: Which is more exciting, entertaining, and good for our sport? Being exacting and calling the lone ball, or being creative and playing options and percentages?

You know what I think. I also think that the latter is more skilled and more to the liking of the good player, average player, novice player, and the general public.

 

[YubaCushion]

Then the question becomes: Which is more exciting, entertaining, and good for our sport? Being exacting and calling the lone ball, or being creative and playing options and percentages?

You know what I think. I also think that the latter is more skilled and more to the liking of the good player, average player, novice player, and the general public.

Isn't quoting yourself almost like talking in the second person? Are you gonna respond? Where was that sense of humor before, or did you get a message from yourself to lighten up?

 

[Push&Pool]

Larry never succumbed to the pressure mounted by pool players to call the pocket on solids and stripes in Eight-Ball. Larry was a knowledgeable player and an astute businessman. He understood better than anyone the downfalls (there are a lot of them) of calling balls.

Can someone please identify a sport where a player or a team is required to call their play or plan and have to follow through with it or get penalized? I can’t think of one. I refer to the wisdom of all the sports that are more popular than ours for guidance in this area. Those sports and Larry Hubbard must know or have known something that the pool community does not.

I am taking Larry’s approach a step further. I am running weekly Eight-Ball tournaments in my place and we are not calling anything, NOT EVEN THE 8 BALL. It is going very well.

Well, I have nothing against the idea of shot calling, but I personally prefer playing without it. I do get irritated when call-shot lovers think they can bash our variants. Those are two completely different types of pool, and none of them is better than the other. However, I play last pocket 8ball, so there is a limitation on where the 8 needs to go, but not on the how part.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Then the question becomes: Which is more exciting, entertaining, and good for our sport?

Ah, now see, there's the core motivation behind your stance - money.
You want to focus on aspects of the game(s) that can ultimately generate more cash for you, or for someone in the business of pool based entertainment. Which is at least understandable.

But there are still people who are more interested in playing a game that requires the skill of a surgeon, the cunning of a fox, and the strategic prowess of a world champion chess player. And It happens to be a lot of people. There are also people who practice for hours on end, for years, for a chance to lay down a chunk of their hard earned cash, to prove that they have mastered the skills of the game better than anyone else.

These are not people who are concerned with how much beer or sponsorships are being sold. These are not people who are hoping to lose money, or a title, to someone who accidentally wins. These people want the game to be played by rules that will result in the most skilled player winning, not the luckiest.

Now that's not to say that you, or anyone, doesn't have the right to play any version of any game they wish, because you certainly do. But you probably shouldn't expect everyone on the planet to feel the same way you do. What you are referring to is changing the rules, not for the sake of player integrity, but for the sake of commercial viability. Dam all you capitalist pigs trying to make a living! And dam you for trying to have a good time playing pool.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Ah, now see, there's the core motivation behind your stance - money.
You want to focus on aspects of the game(s) that can ultimately generate more cash for you, or for someone in the business of pool based entertainment. Which is at least understandable.

But there are still people who are more interested in playing a game that requires the skill of a surgeon, the cunning of a fox, and the strategic prowess of a world champion chess player. And It happens to be a lot of people. There are also people who practice for hours on end, for years, for a chance to lay down a chunk of their hard earned cash, to prove that they have mastered the skills of the game better than anyone else.

These are not people who are concerned with how much beer or sponsorships are being sold. These are not people who are hoping to lose money, or a title, to someone who accidentally wins. These people want the game to be played by rules that will result in the most skilled player winning, not the luckiest.

Now that's not to say that you, or anyone, doesn't have the right to play any version of any game they wish, because you certainly do. But you probably shouldn't expect everyone on the planet to feel the same way you do. What you are referring to is changing the rules, not for the sake of player integrity, but for the sake of commercial viability. Dam all you capitalist pigs trying to make a living! And dam you for trying to have a good time playing pool.

This post is off the deep end.

To stay on point: It requires far more skill, knowledge, and understanding of the game to be creative, play options, and play percentages, than it is to be exacting and call the lone ball. Calling balls is NOT a higher order. Not calling balls makes pool a much better game in every way: more skilled, more fun.

"Surgeons, foxes, and champions" is too much. These people you describe need to get their heads examined.

 

[YubaCushion]

This post is off the deep end.

To stay on point: It requires far more skill, knowledge, and understanding of the game to be creative, play options, and play percentages, than it is to be exacting and call the lone ball. Calling balls is NOT a higher order. Not calling balls makes pool a much better game in every way: more skilled, more fun.

"Surgeons, foxes, and champions" is too much. These people you describe need to get their heads examined.

"Surgeons, foxes, and champions" is too much. These people you describe need to get their heads examined.[/QUOTE]

The post has extra flare but is nowhere off the deep end. What did go off the deep end is your chance of anybody taking you seriously after posting "Not calling balls makes pool a much better game." What an asinine comment. THEN.. to top it off you got push n pool getting on board your lame bandwagon. Here's an idea for you, why not get some crazy 8 balls and have a crazy 8 tournament. Winner gets a free order of your blue cheese jalapeno chili sliders. With only so many pool rooms around, you have to own one? What a waste. You should be appreciative someone like Chi museum took the time to give you the correct.
Good luck with your "tourneys":rotflmao1:

 

[Mr. Bond]

This post is off the deep end.

I do hope you realize that the last two sentences were sarcasm. It sounds like you didn't. It was actually my way of saying that I understand why you might be so concerned with showing your patrons a good time.

To stay on point: It requires far more skill, knowledge, and understanding of the game to be creative, play options, and play percentages, than it is to be exacting and call the lone ball. Calling balls is NOT a higher order.

Far more knowledge and skill is involved to wack a ball and hope it goes into one of the pockets, than to call the specific ball and pocket? Paul that just doesn't make sense. Luck does not require skill, that is why its called luck, and not skill.

There's certainly nothing wrong with being creative and playing options, but why keep your creative option (intended shot) a secret? Just tell your opponent what you intend to do, so he or she will know that it was on purpose. I don't see what the big deal is, and I don't see why being required to do so would make someone want to quit playing pool. Maybe it does, I don't know. But I do know that some people prefer call shot games.
Ce la vie.

"Surgeons, foxes, and champions" is too much. These people you describe need to get their heads examined.

If people who strive for accuracy and excellence need to get their head examined, the doctors office is going to be a busy place.

 

[Paul Schofield]

There is not and there has never been any money in this game. As a matter of fact, anyone doing business in any manner, shape or form in this industry in 2013 is hurting. I don't know what you are talking about. I do what I do because I like it. I need to get MY head examined.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Here's an idea for you, why not get some crazy 8 balls and have a crazy 8 tournament.

Or have a Nine-Ball or a One-Pocket tournament. I am also partial to Three Cushion
Billiards. I have never been crazy about Snooker but I have played Pay-Ball.

 

[YubaCushion]

Or have a Nine-Ball or a One-Pocket tournament. I am also partial to Three Cushion
Billiards. I have never been crazy about Snooker but I have played Pay-Ball.

Why would you do that, those are traditional games with rules. You need a new cheesy game with rules that aren't clear and anybody can play it. I got it... BONUS BALL, that's what you need. You could be the first one to have a Bonus Ball tournament. That's all you right there.

 

[AtLarge]

There is not and there has never been any money in this game. As a matter of fact, anyone doing business in any manner, shape or form in this industry in 2013 is hurting. ...

You seem to be prone to overstatement.

 

[YubaCushion]

You seem to be prone to overstatement.

Overstatement? He's just making stuff up, like the rules in his tournaments.

 

[sixpack]

I can't believe this hasn't been brought up, but what about the clusters of balls that have to be dealt with in 8 ball? It is truely a thing a beauty to watch a good 8 ball player navigate through them, bump the balls on the correct side, etc,etc.....With slop rules we can just blast into them and hope for the best? Maybe not many balls are getting slopped in during your tournaments, but the whole dynamic and strategy of the game changes knowing that you can get rewarded for a "hail mary" shot.

Also, I think the 3 foul rule makes 8 ball a much more interesting game and I enjoy playing it this way.

You can blast into them. Your chances of winning are not significantly better doing that than they are now. If I'm playing you that's exactly what I want you to do. I know the one time in 100 that you make something and manage to win the game will be offset by the next 99 times you don't. And if we're gambling I'll win a lot of cabbage while you keep trying to recreate the magic.

I'd be pretty happy to play someone on a bar table where the spot was I had to call every shot and they didn't. I'm not sure who would be spotting who though.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Intelligent people don't understand "lucking in balls," and we are all intelligent.

CJ, we are not talking about targets. We are talking about calling every shot. Can you imagine if a football or basketball team had to run every play that they called. The other night I saw a baseball player ooops check swing a blooping single into the outfield. There is a lot of excitement in the unplanned and unexpected. There are also ways to increase the chances of the unexpected to happen. That is a big part of pocket billiards: 2 and 3 way shots, double banks, caroms, playing percentages. This stuff adds a lot of excitement to our game. I am saying that we should stop tightening our games down.

The object balls should be called, and that doesn't mean the obvious ones, just "no slop". The "excitement" happens with the cue ball and where it goes and what it may run into.

Intelligent people will always ignore "lucking in balls," and we are all intelligent.....aren't we??? LoL

 

[Paul Schofield]

The object balls should be called, and that doesn't mean the obvious ones, just "no slop".
Intelligent people will always ignore "lucking in balls," and we are all intelligent.....aren't we??? LoL

Wait a second. You are communicating with someone who has more stats on this subject than anyone in the world. In three years (2008-2010) I played 810 racks of Eight-Ball on a 9' table. I slopped zero balls after the break in all 810 games (alternate breaks). At the same time I slopped in 225 balls on my breaks! How intelligent are we? The break is the most significant shot in the game and it is a slop shot! It is indefensable!

For those following this thread and don't know what I am talking about, I instituted my own "No Conflict Rules" in all my leagues and tournaments years ago. I don't mind slopped balls but, my goodness, why are we requiring slopped balls in this, what is supposed to be, a called shot game.

Calling a ball and the concern over a slopped ball during a game is way, way, way, over-rated. My stats show it to be "not worth the bother", especially since the flip side opens up additional options. Look at what goes on at the break. Fix that! I did.

 

[CreeDo]

Calling a ball and the concern over a slopped ball during a game is way, way, way, over-rated. My stats show it to be "not worth the bother", especially since the flip side opens up additional options. Look at what goes on at the break. Fix that! I did.

You 'fixed' it your way by essentially eliminating the break as a shot.
No conflict breaking is like upending the ball tray onto the table and saying "you go first".

The rest of the world fixed it their way by improving rack technology to the point
where playing a specific ball became practical.
You could make the 10b break call shot and Shane would just shrug.

You keep trying to have it both ways by saying "call shot is dumb because it sucks excitement
and skill out of the game". OK, two can play at that game.

What is the one shot of the match the gets replayed EVERY TIME in televised events?
The break. It is unquestionably a source of excitement and tension and drama.
What is more exciting for spectators?
A predictable routine where the breaker shoots next regardless of anything? Not a chance.

Can you say honestly if you put no-conflict rules on TV vs. traditional rules,
the no-conflict would be more fun and exciting for the fans and spectators?
What about at pro level, ever see Orcullo play the ghost?

This is what it looks like when a good player doesn't care about making a ball on the break.
Are you riveted?

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Wait a second. You are communicating with someone who has more stats on this subject than anyone in the world. In three years (2008-2010) I played 810 racks of Eight-Ball on a 9' table. I slopped zero balls after the break in all 810 games (alternate breaks). At the same time I slopped in 225 balls on my breaks! How intelligent are we? The break is the most significant shot in the game and it is a slop shot! It is indefensable!

For those following this thread and don't know what I am talking about, I instituted my own "No Conflict Rules" in all my leagues and tournaments years ago. I don't mind slopped balls but, my goodness, why are we requiring slopped balls in this, what is supposed to be, a called shot game.

Calling a ball and the concern over a slopped ball during a game is way, way, way, over-rated. My stats show it to be "not worth the bother", especially since the flip side opens up additional options. Look at what goes on at the break. Fix that! I did.

And there it is...176 posts and 12 pages later.

 

[Paul Schofield]

You 'fixed' it your way by essentially eliminating the break as a shot.
No conflict breaking is like upending the ball tray onto the table and saying "you go first".

I am not being sarcastic or demeaning. In order for you to think this, you must not play pool or have been around this game long enough to understand the game.

Leave Nine & Ten-Ball out of this for now. There are a few lengthy threads I started a long time ago on this topic. I am talking about Eight-Ball in this thread. Here it goes:

The break is a highly skilled part of the game. Keep what is skilled: give yourself a good rack, control the cue-ball, and get a good spread. Get rid of the REQUIRED luck: the ball on the break. Shoot what you rack and what you break. Get rewarded for a good break and punished for a bad one. Don't require luck. That makes a lot of sense.

I have challenged many a player to call a ball and a pocket on the break to prove to me that making a ball on the break is not a slop shot.